Shoeing / Hoof Advice Required Please

[Oberon]

Hi Oberon...

He's on 2:1 Calm & Condition to Fast Fibre... I'm not sure about the grazing aspect as there's been no tests run on the field - but the farrier is fairly local so maybe (I've no real idea) his suggestion was as much to do with area as a 'one supplement' cures all approach... Not sure...

In all fairness, all the horses on the yard appear very healthy and all are on the same field... 14 horses, 23 or so acres... We got him in May and he did go into a sheep pasture initially as he was in such poor condition - the grass was even more lush and he'd not have coped going into the herd... Two months and he was booted out into the main turnout and has continued to steadily improved in condition...

His feet are better than when he arrived - they weren't far off the bone... Just not good I guess... Maybe if he'd gone into boots rather than shoes it would have helped... Hindsight though... I didn't know they existed and no one on the yard or the farrier suggested them...

They were so bad when he arrived I'm a bit worried that normal turnout without shoes will put him straight back there - and I'm not sure boots would survive some areas of the field with the mud etc at the moment...

You're looking at the hooves and trying to help - that gives you a

in my book

BF horses do endurance. Hooves in the wild do 15 - 20 miles a day from the second day of life.

I've never heard of a case where a BF horse (with a good diet) has worn his hooves away - even in hard work.

It seems that your TB is not happy with the diet he is being fed.

Fast Fibre is great stuff. Calm and Condition is (I think) 13% starch/sugar - you need to stay under 10%, including his grass and hay intake.

I would recommend FF and changing the C&C for a good mineral supplement. Add micronised linseed (Omega's, gut health, joint health and coat).

If he needs more weight then try unmolassed beet or just some soya oil

(Horses get most of their calorie intake from fermenting fibre - so if you want more weight then add more fibre).

These changes alone may be all that's required to improve his hooves if you wish to keep the shoes on.

 

[Goldenstar]

If you don't need this horse in work I would definatly remove the shoes and take how ever long it takes to let nature help your boy out .
There's loads of imfo out there on barefoot but the basics are simple regular trimming good diet which can be simple just lots of forage watch starch good supplements ( formula4feet is good and good value) your horse has prob had insuffient minerals/ vitamins to grow hoof all his life as the TB lifestyle tends to be like that.
Get the diet right and the trimming and they will improve you say your other horses are barefoot so you know how to do it just take the time with him and let nature do its work
I am new to barefoot and am amazed on the changes in my boys feet since his shoes have come off ( he had great feet so not the same case ) and would definatly take this route with your sort of horse.
Good luck with him

 

[Ladydragon]

He will not file his feet off! You will however have to accept that sometimes barefoot horses feet dont look pretty, pretty does not however always equal functional! At the moment youve got aesthetically pretty feet cos theyre covered by shoes - but the horse is clearly telling you that they are not functioning.

TBs have the same hindgut every other horse has - to say that tb's have crappy feet is just an excuse owners use to validate why their horses have poor feet because they simply do not know another way of doing things.

There is no point in continuing as you have been doing thats the definition of insanity!

''doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results'' Einstein

When he came to us he was badly lame... His heels were skinned and bleeding and what little hoof was there was uneven with bits out, cracks and just a right old mess... When I said 'filed down' it was kinda tongue in cheek but I also don't want to risk wearing him down to that level again... Maybe it is unusual for feet to get that bad - I don't know... I've not paid that much attention (outside of routine care and farrier work), to feet or seen many footsore, lame ones... Regarding the bit in bold - it's the farrier's who've been shoeing him so far that said "He's just a TB who's got cr@p feet and needs shoeing more regularly than most horses"... They are the qualified farrier so I've gone with what they say until now - figuring that there's got to be more options than just dismissing him so easily...

Disputing that though and knowing where/who to deal with his feet now and improve them properly is the bit where I am unsure and don't have the experience/professional knowledge... Just pulling his shoes and throwing him out onto a very rocky terrain (aside from the mud or grassy bits) does worry me that he'll go back to where he was... They're still bad feet but miles better than they were... I've not read the other recommended thread yet to know the relevance of the hind gut... I'm not concerned with aesthetics - they have had various bits knocked out of them or crumble away whilst he's been wearing/losing shoes...

The nice thing for BF horses in winter is the soft ground - if you can feed for a healthy immune system and keep infection at bay.

The hooves sink into the mud with every step and it cushions the hoof and supports it just like wearing boots and pads.

The turnout is literally the side of a mountain Oberon... Very deep mud near the gate and across the top portion of the field (the extra run off from the barns probably makes that area worse) - then a mix of rocky and grassy as it goes down hill... There's a winding, very natural gravel type path which is used for the quad/farm vehicles moving from the lower farm to this one... If I could keep him in the sheep field he's been in the last three days it would probably be a lot easier as it's a more normal field and nice and soft - but he was a bit of a lunatic out there and chewed it up pretty badly... The farmer would have forty fits if I threw him out there for the rest of the winter...

I would try a suppliment called Formula4Feet which I have found to be very good.

Thank you Peter... I'll look that one up too...

 

[Oberon]

I've never heard of an area that is prohibitive to taking the shoes off a horse - that's a new one on me

Hooves are much tougher than people give them credit for but there is a whole culture that does not appreciate how very amazing they are They are considered weak and in need of cushioning and support by most people. It's just unfair to them

Anyway - back to your horse......

You have the option of engaging a reputable trimmer for an opinion and advice before you make any firm decisions either way.

The first thing to do is improve the hooves through diet.

The only two supplements I recommend are Pro Hoof
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PRO-HOOF-...r_Equipment&hash=item415ecd69e0#ht_1466wt_952

and Equimins Meta Balance (you have to phone them for it as it's off the menu).

Those will supply generous amounts of necessary minerals without being too heavy on fillers or 'naughty' minerals.

 

[Ladydragon]

You're looking at the hooves and trying to help - that gives you a

in my book

BF horses do endurance. Hooves in the wild do 15 - 20 miles a day from the second day of life.

I've never heard of a case where a BF horse (with a good diet) has worn his hooves away - even in hard work.

It seems that your TB is not happy with the diet he is being fed.

Fast Fibre is great stuff. Calm and Condition is (I think) 13% starch/sugar - you need to stay under 10%, including his grass and hay intake.

I would recommend FF and changing the C&C for a good mineral supplement. Add micronised linseed (Omega's, gut health, joint health and coat).

If he needs more weight then try unmolassed beet or just some soya oil

(Horses get most of their calorie intake from fermenting fibre - so if you want more weight then add more fibre).

These changes alone may be all that's required to improve his hooves if you wish to keep the shoes on.

He must have had an appalling diet in the twelve months he was parked in a field if it was the field he was in when I saw him... He was in a bad way - I definitely wasn't looking for a young TB for myself (recently returned to riding, no spring chicken and brain surgery to boot ) but he's such a sweetie and come on in leaps and bounds once he gave up on giving up... He's been working well with my son who's hoping to work towards doing some dressage on him in the future...

The rep from A&P recommended that combination when she came out for a yard visit - it worked in getting him into a much better shape in all fairness but I'm open to changing it for a more long term dietary approach...

I do like the effect A&P feeds have had so far and looking at horse feeds melt my brain there are so many... So you would suggest dropping the C&C completely and just feeding FF? Would you have an example of an unmolassed beat feed? He has dropped a little bit of weight so far over winter - the grass just isn't as good I'm guessing as he's warm enough and eating enough for two elephants... But the grass last year was very rich so I'd rather him not go into spring 'plump' as he's not working much... The haylage is good quality - is there an easy way of guessing at starch/sugar content?

When I say not working much - other than the menage or the turnout (which can be difficult to negotiate and he gets a bit fluffy whilst the others are still in the field) we're on a bit of a lockdown on the yard as there is confirmed strangles in the close locality...

Micronised linseed - is that the powdery version? I've not tried that - he's been having linseed oil added with the biotin powder to his meals...

 

[Ladydragon]

If you don't need this horse in work I would definatly remove the shoes and take how ever long it takes to let nature help your boy out .
There's loads of imfo out there on barefoot but the basics are simple regular trimming good diet which can be simple just lots of forage watch starch good supplements ( formula4feet is good and good value) your horse has prob had insuffient minerals/ vitamins to grow hoof all his life as the TB lifestyle tends to be like that.
Get the diet right and the trimming and they will improve you say your other horses are barefoot so you know how to do it just take the time with him and let nature do its work
I am new to barefoot and am amazed on the changes in my boys feet since his shoes have come off ( he had great feet so not the same case ) and would definatly take this route with your sort of horse.
Good luck with him

Thank you Goldenstar... Yes, our others are barefoot with one front shod only which I'm hoping to avoid next year... I'm more used to that than the drama this boy is having with his feet... I've just not experienced the mess his were in...or seen the hooves crumble and flake away so easily... It's a bit disconcerting and I've not really got a clue how to get him to the same levels as the others... Especially if it means disregarding the professional advice...

Good news about your boy... It's nice to hear positive experiences...

 

[TigerTail]

Sorry if I came over as a bit stroppy - I get highly over excited about barefoot threads and tbs getting a bad name for feet!

Right what you need to do is start doing loads of research so you can make up your own mind without relying on 'professionals' we've all been there and done that, and they aint always right!

So here is a blog which is full of useful info from a barefoot trimmer

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/

Rockley Farm - fab for advice on diet and hoof rehab http://www.rockleyfarm.co.uk/RockleyFarm/Home.html

If you tell us which county you are in we might be able to recommend you a trimmer who would come and do an assessment and help you go from there.

 

[Oberon]

He must have had an appalling diet in the twelve months he was parked in a field if it was the field he was in when I saw him... He was in a bad way - I definitely wasn't looking for a young TB for myself (recently returned to riding, no spring chicken and brain surgery to boot ) but he's such a sweetie and come on in leaps and bounds once he gave up on giving up... He's been working well with my son who's hoping to work towards doing some dressage on him in the future...

The rep from A&P recommended that combination when she came out for a yard visit - it worked in getting him into a much better shape in all fairness but I'm open to changing it for a more long term dietary approach...

I do like the effect A&P feeds have had so far and looking at horse feeds melt my brain there are so many... So you would suggest dropping the C&C completely and just feeding FF? Would you have an example of an unmolassed beat feed? He has dropped a little bit of weight so far over winter - the grass just isn't as good I'm guessing as he's warm enough and eating enough for two elephants... But the grass last year was very rich so I'd rather him not go into spring 'plump' as he's not working much... The haylage is good quality - is there an easy way of guessing at starch/sugar content?

When I say not working much - other than the menage or the turnout (which can be difficult to negotiate and he gets a bit fluffy whilst the others are still in the field) we're on a bit of a lockdown on the yard as there is confirmed strangles in the close locality...

Micronised linseed - is that the powdery version? I've not tried that - he's been having linseed oil added with the biotin powder to his meals...

He'll get almost all he needs from grass, haylage, sunlight and internal synthesis of bacteria and enzymes (calories, protein, vitamins and minerals).

What they tend to be missing, or rather 'out of balance', is a few minerals because they are grazing the same fields over and over.

So give him minerals - they're magical.

The Fast Fibre is like a hay net in a bucket and it's very good to mix stuff into.

Raw, ground linseed is the most bioavailable form, micronised is the next best way. Linseed oil isn't considered as effective. Linseed provides the magic of Dr Green without the sugar.

Unmollassed beet (like Purabeet and Speedibeet) is easily digestible fibre and is calorie rich, but SOME horses don't do well on it - so please be aware.

I find feed companies make it all too complicated. Horses are actually much simpler to feed than they make out.

 

[Ladydragon]

Sorry if I came over as a bit stroppy - I get highly over excited about barefoot threads and tbs getting a bad name for feet!

Right what you need to do is start doing loads of research so you can make up your own mind without relying on 'professionals' we've all been there and done that, and they aint always right!

So here is a blog which is full of useful info from a barefoot trimmer

http://barefoothorseblog.blogspot.com/

Rockley Farm - fab for advice on diet and hoof rehab http://www.rockleyfarm.co.uk/RockleyFarm/Home.html

If you tell us which county you are in we might be able to recommend you a trimmer who would come and do an assessment and help you go from there.

That's ok...

If it's something people are passionate about there's got to be something worth being passionate about in it... If that makes the blindest bit of sense?!

Thank you for the links... I'm in Mid Glamorgan in SE Wales...

I think my biggest problem is that I've just not seen anything as bad as his before... Overgrown feet yes; almost none existent, worn away feet, no... When he arrived at the yard I nearly self certified myself for lunacy in taking on one so messed up - but he's amazing by comparison now... Until I look at his feet then I feel right out of my depth again...

I've not felt 'qualified' to challenge the farrier view point and given how bad they were I'm too much of a wuss to just whip the shoes off and 'go for it' I suppose... Maybe I'm just treading a bit of a cowardly path in hoping to get them into better shape before taking the plunge and committing totally to him being barefoot... Not helped by the fact he's not at all lame when the shoes are on - it all goes pear shaped when one falls off... Bad reinforcement for myself I know...

He'll get almost all he needs from grass, haylage, sunlight and internal synthesis of bacteria and enzymes (calories, protein, vitamins and minerals).

What they tend to be missing, or rather 'out of balance', is a few minerals because they are grazing the same fields over and over.

So give him minerals - they're magical.

The Fast Fibre is like a hay net in a bucket and it's very good to mix stuff into.

Raw, ground linseed is the most bioavailable form, micronised is the next best way. Linseed oil isn't considered as effective. Linseed provides the magic of Dr Green without the sugar.

Unmollassed beet (like Purabeet and Speedibeet) is easily digestible fibre and is calorie rich, but SOME horses don't do well on it - so please be aware.

I find feed companies make it all too complicated. Horses are actually much simpler to feed than they make out.

So can I give the micronised linseed in conjunction with the Pro Hoof? Do I drop the Biotin or keep that going as well? (I noticed the Pro Hoof has biotin in it)... Include or not bother with any seaweed?

What problems might occur feeding beet? He's not at all fizzy and very laid back for a TB... The odd drama queen moment but I think it's as much immaturity as anything else... I've put a portion of him being so relaxed down to the FF/C&C mix as being good for his temperament too...

THANK YOU to everyone who's contributed and offered advice...

 

[Miss L Toe]

My horse [15.00] is on a mixed forage ie fibre diet with minerals, he gets minimal sugar, no molasses, in light work, stabled, fed less than ad lib haylage [ I would prefer to feed hay] , per day, I feed :
1 lb FF as a base for maintenance.
For his feet and his work he gets
less than 1lb of Calm and Condition or similar [varies with work/condition]
1 lb Speedy beet for fibre and other nutrients
1lb of Dengie molasses free chaff [lo in alfa] for a variety of fibre and gut health.
80gm micronised linseed meal [10kg from Equimins] for skin and hooves and joints.
with a mineral mix to balance it
7gm MgO for calmness and hooves
7gm Brewers yeast for hooves and gut
7gm Feedmark Steady up [it is gentle on the gut and I have used it for several years with young horses]
10gm [he has good hoof quality] Equimins Biotin Plus
7gms Equimins Advance concentrate powder [special offer item!]
12gm seaweed [ I bought 10kg of this as recommended for feet, but it is now not recommended as the only mineral source]
This sounds complex, but I make up his linseed and mineral mix every 130 days, and put 100gms in to his feed daily.
I also mix up his FF and others so I just take a pet scoop per day soak it, split in to two, and add chaff.
FF is 22p per day
Speedy Beet is 25p per day
Calm and Condition is 20-30p per day
The cost of his linseed is 20p per day
Mineral mix 45 p per day
Dengi chaff [expensive to feed, but I hope it calms his tummy and prevents colic] 15p
I am careful not to overdose minerals, but this area is low in magnesium and the horse tends to be spooky, so I use two sources of Magnesium, one straight mineral and the other more bio available [cough]
I sometimes use a straight Biotin, but you have to look at the analysis, as some have fillers, not Biotin in them, the Equimins plus seems to be the most concentrated/best value at the moment.
I think I could cut back his mineral mix, but I feel it is working for him, he looks well and the feet are growing nicely, I rasp the edges once a week and give him plenty of road work.
I have had him nearly four years, both shod and unshod, his feet are better than they have ever been.
If you are not in to making up your own hoof supplement/miineral mix, go for one which gives you 20gm of Biotin per day, you have to assume that the rest of the mix is balanced around this amount. I have been using linseed meal for four months, and am converted, 100 - 120 gm for a 152.-16.2 is about right.

 

[cptrayes]

I've not felt 'qualified' to challenge the farrier view point and given how bad they were I'm too much of a wuss to just whip the shoes off and 'go for it' I suppose... Maybe I'm just treading a bit of a cowardly path in hoping to get them into better shape before taking the plunge and committing totally to him being barefoot... Not helped by the fact he's not at all lame when the shoes are on - it all goes pear shaped when one falls off... Bad reinforcement for myself I know...

Please do not think that any reasonable barefooter would think you were a coward. You are doing the best you can for your horse, and we'll help you if we can I haven't offered advice myself because everyone else is doing it better, but good luck with improving his foot quality through diet, and if you feel like taking the plunge barefoot we'll be here to support you if we can.

 

[TigerTail]

holy moly Miss L!!! how to confuse the poor OP! Even my eyes boggled when I read that and im into barefoot and minerals lol!

OP yes you feed the pro hoof and micronised linseed together. Some horses are sensitive to sugar so even soaked sugar beet isnt helpful to them. For me Id rather avoid the issue all together so would use fast fibre if mine needed more calories (she doesnt )

Id drop the extra biotin as Pro Hoof has biotin in as you noticed. No point in over complicating things. I wouldnt bother with seaweed unless you know your forage is deficient in iodine.

Not all TBs are fizzy, same as not all TBs have bad feet. Id be more concerned he's quiet because his feet are hurting tbh.

Heres a link to some stuff on the fillers and binders which are in most commerical feeds, just more info to give you more knowledge and educate yourself. If your as anal about these things as me I suggest you print some of these links off and do yourself a barefoot folder of info you can refer to at any time!

http://thunderbrook.co.uk/app/download/3106767802/Some+ingredients+of+processed+horse+feeds.pdf


My geography is pants but I hope some of these are useful!

Denbighshire
Sarah Braithwaite (CP, FI)
01352 810 459
07789 264 215
sarahbraithwait@f2s.com
http://www.performancebarefoot.co.uk

Mel Richards
07980 614955

Sara Cave (CP)
01239 810 065
07790 179 470
sara@tresilian.co.uk

 

[Miss L Toe]

holy moly Miss L!!! how to confuse the poor OP! Even my eyes boggled when I read that and im into barefoot and minerals lol!

I thought someone would like to know just how anal we can get, but I did suggest a simple diet of FF and a hoof supplement with 20gm of biotin would be a good place to start, we have to consider the horse has VERY bad feet, so I have suggested the Equimins plus:
"""This well established supplement contains higher levels of Biotin together with chelated Zinc methionate. Strong keratin growth is essential for healthy hooves. Use this supplement in siuations where ordinary Biotin is not sufficient.2kg will last 66 days.""""

My main reasoning has been self education and cost cutting, also my boy must be sugar/molasses and cereal free or we get "loopiness",
I make up my mineral mix and linseed feed every time I get 10kgs of linseed delivered, so at that time I have a few bits of this and that collected!
I can't imagine anyone measuring out every scoop every feed!

 

[Cluny]

Firstly well done you for giving this poor TB a chance. I havent read all the posts but there seems to be some great advice on here.

A couple of things that spring to mind that may help are Epona glue on (can be nailed too) shoes. I used these on both my horses with great success and recommend them. They will give your horse's feet a chance to recover whilst protecting them in the transition period. Sally Bell who is the UK rep over here is an EP and great with an advice.

http://www.eponashoe.com/

Sal also works with farriers who haven't fitted them before.

Have also heard good things about the Perfect Hoof Wear System
http://www.appliedequinepodiatry.org/perfecthoofwear/index.html

 

[Ladydragon]

<snip mind boggling dietary information >
I have had him nearly four years, both shod and unshod, his feet are better than they have ever been.
If you are not in to making up your own hoof supplement/miineral mix, go for one which gives you 20gm of Biotin per day, you have to assume that the rest of the mix is balanced around this amount. I have been using linseed meal for four months, and am converted, 100 - 120 gm for a 152.-16.2 is about right.

Wow Miss L Toe... Thank you for writing all that out - although I think my brain is in some sort of melt down...

I'm going to have to get my backside into gear and learn a lot more about feeding though... It seems to have changed so radically over the years and is thoroughly confusing now... Not helped by the fact all the others are perfectly fine - their biggest concern is making sure they don't put too much weight on... I definitely need to educate myself a bit more...

I've had a good look at the product Oberon suggested for feet and that does have the biotin in it - and it's good to see another vote for the linseed... He's around the 15.2 mark - maybe a bit more now he's straightened out some...

Please do not think that any reasonable barefooter would think you were a coward. You are doing the best you can for your horse, and we'll help you if we can I haven't offered advice myself because everyone else is doing it better, but good luck with improving his foot quality through diet, and if you feel like taking the plunge barefoot we'll be here to support you if we can.

Thank you Santa Paws... Love the name...

OP yes you feed the pro hoof and micronised linseed together. Some horses are sensitive to sugar so even soaked sugar beet isnt helpful to them. For me Id rather avoid the issue all together so would use fast fibre if mine needed more calories (she doesnt )

Thank you for that and the links TigerTail... I'll look to dropping the C&C when this lot is finished off... I suppose because the combination of the two did such a good job in getting some condition on him I've been a bit reluctant to faff with it... Which is actually rather silly when I think about it considering he's at a totally different place now... He isn't the skinny little runt in need of building up any more - I guess we're now we're at the stage of trying to maintain and improve him...

Firstly well done you for giving this poor TB a chance. I havent read all the posts but there seems to be some great advice on here.
[/url]

There is indeed... I'm learning very quickly that I know very little... ha ha...

Thank you for the links Cluny... I'll check them out...

 

[Ladydragon]

No pics of feet yet... The Mr has refused to let me up the yard as I'm currently full of the dreaded lurgy... I'm not sure whether digging me out of the mud is the issue or the worry the four legged critters might get a cold...

Here's a few pics of the fella though which show a little of how he's come along...

This was about a month or so after he'd arrived with us... He was starting to find his feet so to speak and chill out nicely...

Towards the end of the summer - complete with grass belly... and 100kg more than when he arrived...

It might not be easy to see from the pics but he's a totally different lad... Very sweet and pretty easy going (from my rather limited knowledge of TBs)... He's only 15.2 or so and when I did a bit of homework and tracked down his breeder for a chat and so on - he's got some nice breeding... Quite sad how he ended up...

Anyway... He's stuck with us now even if I still roll my eyes at myself for being bonkers enough to pick up a totally unsuitable, young TB...

 

[be positive]

I have not read the whole thread but having seen the photos remember that the foot that is currently not good quality is from when he was poor and on an unsuitable diet, it will be improving all the time now he is getting a correct diet and you should start to see some better horn growing soon.

 

[Oberon]

I thought someone would like to know just how anal we can get

 

[Oberon]

I've had a good look at the product Oberon suggested for feet and that does have the biotin in it - and it's good to see another vote for the linseed... He's around the 15.2 mark - maybe a bit more now he's straightened out some...

The Pro Hoof, FF and micro linseed should cover all bases in normal circumstances.

Nice and simple

Between that, the grass and the haylage, sunlight and his own bacteria and enzymes he should be covered for everything.

Any additional needs can be addressed as they come up.

I wouldn't get too hung up on Biotin. It's part of the B vits. They very rarely need supplementing. There has been some anecdotal reports of improvements in hoof quality when fed biotin - but no hard evidence. Most of the research is with human foot pain and diabetes (but then humans DO often need b vitamins supplementing). It's just somehow become THE thing to feed for hooves.

I believe you'll see more improvements with the minerals than just the biotin.

 

[MissMistletoe]

This post has been a fascinating read from a barefooter myself trying to get my head around minerals and the like!.

I know that OP is taking the horse off calm and condition, but i have had much sucess with the fattening up my older pony with Alan and page's Veteren Vitality. It is just as conditioning as C and C, but i think maybe a little less starch (still mollases and cereal free).

 

[Ladydragon]

I have not read the whole thread but having seen the photos remember that the foot that is currently not good quality is from when he was poor and on an unsuitable diet, it will be improving all the time now he is getting a correct diet and you should start to see some better horn growing soon.

Thank you... I'm hoping now the foundation work so to speak is seeing him generally healthier, the slower bits like his feet can be improved...

The Pro Hoof, FF and micro linseed should cover all bases in normal circumstances.
<snip>
Nice and simple

I like nice and simple...

Just a thought but is the micro linseed a good additive to use full stop?

None of the others have his background so are all pretty healthy, decent feet etc... I'm just wondering if it's something they should all have though?

This post has been a fascinating read from a barefooter myself trying to get my head around minerals and the like!.

I know that OP is taking the horse off calm and condition, but i have had much sucess with the fattening up my older pony with Alan and page's Veteren Vitality. It is just as conditioning as C and C, but i think maybe a little less starch (still mollases and cereal free).

It's been an eye opener for me and a good education...

I like that feed... My daughter has been giving it to her 17yr old pony... It's kept her in nice condition and we used it with a yearling after she'd had a terrible stifle injury so she'd get all the joint goodies in it...

 

[chestnut cob]

Haven't read the whole thread as no time but thought I'd give you my experiences. I have a TBx who had pretty awful feet this time last year. I was told my my previous farrier he "just has crap feet and they'll always be that way, it's just him". In Jan last year I switched him to a barefoot type diet (though he is still shod)... cut out all sugars where possible, added in linseed (Charnwood Milling stuff), brewer's yeast, seaweed and was already feeding magox. I did put him onto Simple System pure alfalfa but I've since found out he is allergic to it so he's just getting Speedibeet now. In March I also changed to a remedial farrier (horse also has arthritis and needed more help WRT shoeing than a standard farrier could provide). That farrier, who is v well respected locally, said his feet were awful and that he could barely nail the shoes on in front because they were so weak.

He is shod every 6 weeks, on the dot, initially in Natural Balance shoes and now in something similar (farrier complains NB don't have enough purchase for the nails, or something like that), ie wide web, rolled toe, no clips. My farrier asked me before Xmas what I was feeding him as his feet are "totally different now, with good, strong hoof growing down". It's taken a long time to improve his feet, and my current farrier complained last time that previous farrier had rasped so much hoof wall off each time that it destroyed his feet.. no strength in them, and not balanced properly (also this horse had two different shaped/sized front feet, and this farrier works with that rather than trying to force them to be exactly the same).

So I would suggest you look at the diet (adding Yea Sacc to my horse's diet in the summer also helped massively) and get a new farrier.

 

[amandap]

May I mention another aspect about weak horn and hoof wall apart from the importance of diet. Horn needs stimulation to grow faster and strong. Shoes tend to protect the ends of the horn tubules so limiting or stopping this stimulation which tells the horn to grow and to grow stronger. Often walls are left longer than a bare foot horse so shoes can be nailed. Long walls tell the horn to grow weak so it can chip off, a sort of self trimming response.

If the other horses are happily barefoot at your yard this is a good indicator of forage quality but all horses are individuals.
I too think at least a period of barefoot will help.

 

[Oberon]

I like nice and simple...

Just a thought but is the micro linseed a good additive to use full stop?

None of the others have his background so are all pretty healthy, decent feet etc... I'm just wondering if it's something they should all have though?

The horse's diet is a naturally low fat one.

The only dietry fat horses require is the Omega oils. They get this from the grass (the magic of Dr Green that puts a bloom on their coat).

But the other way of providing these oils is with linseed - this has the magic of Dr Green without the unpredictable sugar levels.

We all know the benefits of Omega oils in humans. No different for horses - joints, gut muculage, coat bloom.

It's a horsey superfood

 

[Miss L Toe]

The Pro Hoof, FF and micro linseed should cover all bases in normal circumstances.

Nice and simple

I wouldn't get too hung up on Biotin. It's part of the B vits. They very rarely need supplementing. There has been some anecdotal reports of improvements in hoof quality when fed biotin - but no hard evidence. Most of the research is with human foot pain and diabetes (but then humans DO often need b vitamins supplementing). It's just somehow become THE thing to feed for hooves.

I believe you'll see more improvements with the minerals than just the biotin.

that is interesting, why have there not been any investigations in to Biotin in horses, and why are we recommended to feed 20gm per day?

I am about ready to start on gathering products for my next tranche of minerals and linseed, I have 4kgs of Steady up, which has magnesium and pre and pro-biotics, I feed 50:50 Speedy beet and Fast Fibre, plus chaff, so need to top up the minerals a bit, not sure whether to go for Equimins Advance [ have a 50% off coupon] or another product.
Feet are currently growing nicely.

 

[amandap]

The horse's diet is a naturally low fat one.

The only dietry fat horses require is the Omega oils. They get this from the grass (the magic of Dr Green that puts a bloom on their coat).

But the other way of providing these oils is with linseed - this has the magic of Dr Green without the unpredictable sugar levels.

We all know the benefits of Omega oils in humans. No different for horses - joints, gut muculage, coat bloom.

It's a horsey superfood

Just to add here that linseed oil looses the omegas through heating in production. Cold pressed oil is better but ground and mirconized whole seed is much, much better. It's also a source of copper.

Op, best of luck.

 

[abitodd]

The turnout is literally the side of a mountain Oberon... Very deep mud near the gate and across the top portion of the field (the extra run off from the barns probably makes that area worse) - then a mix of rocky and grassy as it goes down hill... There's a winding, very natural gravel type path which is used for the quad/farm vehicles moving from the lower farm to this one... If I could keep him in the sheep field he's been in the last three days it would probably be a lot easier as it's a more normal field and nice and soft - but he was a bit of a lunatic out there and chewed it up pretty badly... The farmer would have forty fits if I threw him out there for the rest of the winter...

Rocky and grassy.....natural gravel type path......Sounds a wonderful environmet for a barefoot horse.

 

[Ladydragon]

Just an update for anyone interested... The TB lost a back shoe on Saturday but Mr Farrier was coming out today anyway... I'm liking this guy - he's been a really helpful fella...

He put new shoes on the front but decided it would be a good option to leave them off at the back as the TB's not in a massive amount of work atm - he thinks it'll do him good to have some time without shoes to firm his feet up a bit more and give them chance to grow down some... Almost had to pick me up off the floor...

New hoof growth is showing some improvement and even though he lost some hoof when the shoe came off it's nothing massive and he's not footsore at all... Mr Farrier did say his hooves won't 'look pretty' and he might knock the odd bit off here and there but that it would do him the world of good as the overall feel of his feet has really improved... I must have been doing a very good impression of a guppy with lots of stuttering so he told me to get a grip and let him worry about TB's feet instead of me getting all wound up... He's blunt but a peach...

It's a bit of a trial at the moment but Mr Farrier wants him at least two weeks with no shoes on the back and review as time passes - regular turnout and (fairly) short distance hack/in hand up the road a little way every couple of days just to alternate surfaces... The main turnout is very rough and ready plus he's doing rotational foal sitting in a lush pasture type field and the road is smooth but hard tarmac...

So...after hearing the "he's just got rubbish feet and needs shoeing every 4 weeks" to this scenario is a huge jump that has me twitching a little bit given the boy arrived so footsore and with bleeding heels etc... I'm a tad nervous but ready to roll with it... Mr Farrier charged less than his standard shoeing even though I offered him the full amount (he travels a fair distance and it was only one horse) so he appears to be going with what he thinks is right for the horse rather than just shoe, get paid, go home...

Anyway...after all that waffle... Wish us luck...

 

[asommerville]

My mare was in the same situation as you and my farrier said she needed corrected from the inside out. its expevise but i would recommend either formula for feet or dengie healthy hooves (different from happy hoof) the dengie really worked for me. would also recommend camrosa - really seemed to make a difference to my mares feet growth. good luck....i feel your pain!!

 

[amandap]

I wish you the best of luck. He sounds a great farrier.

Something I don't think was mentioned before about horn quality and strength is stimulation. The horn in a bare hoof is constantly worn and stimulates the horn producing cells to increase growth and quality to keep up. Of course this takes a little time to fully kick in and a whole new hoof (new horn reaching the ground) until you see full benefit. Keep an eye on his hinds and see how they develop. Take pics , memory isn't as good as we think and you may well be amazed at the changes over a few months. Be mindful of his bare hinds at first and avoid challenging surfaces. Again, good luck.