shoes off now very footy help??

Pale Rider said:
Absolute rubbish this, if the horse is footy going through the transition, which they all are to some extent hoof boots should be used as a matter of course, to help through the transitioning process.

No horse should be expected to transition without some help, SOME vets and farriers have vested interests and are not giving the naive the proper advice.

No hacking or 'working' on hard ground is stupid advice.
Click to expand...

LOL naive and stupid is not a word generally used to describe either myself, my vet OR my farrier tbh.

I personally, think it is unnecessarily cruel to put a horse through this transition IF they become footy, I agree that some don't and they are the ones best suited to going unshod.

If you think I am 'stupid' for not wanting to cause a footy horse more pain by hacking on hard ground then that says a lot more about your standard of horsecare than it does about mine - I repeat, it borders on abuse.

I also believe some barefoot trimmers have a 'vested interest', even more so than a farrier or a vet who had had YEARS of training rather than days or weeks at best.
 
Last edited:
bumblelion said:
Once the shoes were put back on he wasn't a "poor horse" but a "VERY HAPPY HORSE". He has very good feet for a tb, and not unhealthy as you accused them of being! Not all horses can go barefoot. He's a tb so at the end of the day his soles are much thinner than say a cob. Also he's been shod since a 2 year old so they've never had the opportunity to toughen up! Although I don't need to justify myself, I can not bear when someone who does not know me or my horses, says "poor horse" as if I am an animal abuser!! Also there is nothing wrong with his diet! He loves eating chicken and drinking beer! No way does this contribute to his feet! He also is not showing early signs of lamimitis. I have a laminitic and know the signs. Thankyou for your criticism!
Click to expand...

I agree with this - TBs have thin soles and very often poor flat feet. When people talk of going 'natural' the TB sadly does not have the benefit of the breed's forefather's arabian feet nor the hardiness of a mustang or welshie. My hubby advocates going barefoot but I can tell you he trims very few barefoot TBs who are in work for this very reason 'typical TB poor feet'. Their flatness leads to bruising as does the thin soles. Before I am shot down there are SOME exceptions but I speak generally!
 
bumblelion said:
Once the shoes were put back on he wasn't a "poor horse" but a "VERY HAPPY HORSE". He has very good feet for a tb, and not unhealthy as you accused them of being! Not all horses can go barefoot. He's a tb so at the end of the day his soles are much thinner than say a cob. Also he's been shod since a 2 year old so they've never had the opportunity to toughen up! Although I don't need to justify myself, I can not bear when someone who does not know me or my horses, says "poor horse" as if I am an animal abuser!! Also there is nothing wrong with his diet! He loves eating chicken and drinking beer! No way does this contribute to his feet! He also is not showing early signs of lamimitis. I have a laminitic and know the signs. Thankyou for your criticism!
Click to expand...


Well said!

There do seem to be a lot of 'experts' who know better than vets, nutritionists and farriers around! These same people are adept at diagnosing over the internet and often seem to know the horses better than their actual owners do!

Whomever it was that said 'a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing' was soooo right.
 
Amaranta said:
Well said!

There do seem to be a lot of 'experts' who know better than vets, nutritionists and farriers around! These same people are adept at diagnosing over the internet and often seem to know the horses better than their actual owners do!

Whomever it was that said 'a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing' was soooo right.
Click to expand...

Thankyou
 
bumblelion said:
Once the shoes were put back on he wasn't a "poor horse" but a "VERY HAPPY HORSE". He has very good feet for a tb, and not unhealthy as you accused them of being! Not all horses can go barefoot. He's a tb so at the end of the day his soles are much thinner than say a cob. Also he's been shod since a 2 year old so they've never had the opportunity to toughen up! Although I don't need to justify myself, I can not bear when someone who does not know me or my horses, says "poor horse" as if I am an animal abuser!! Also there is nothing wrong with his diet! He loves eating chicken and drinking beer! No way does this contribute to his feet! He also is not showing early signs of lamimitis. I have a laminitic and know the signs. Thankyou for your criticism!
Click to expand...

I only said poor horse for while he was bare and in pain, I'm sure you thought poor horse then too! My horse is also a TB and ex-racer so I am familar with the type and mine is barefoot, but to me any horse's hooves who cause the horse pain without shoes on are UNHEALTHY in some way, as healthy ones would not cause them pain when stood on soft ground.

Flat feet and thin soles do not have to be a permanent condition for a TB even if they have become that way.
 
Last edited:
Pale Rider said:
Amaranta, no one is calling your vet or farrier naive or stupid.

I'm not really going to influence a closed mind so, I'll agree to dis agree.
Click to expand...

Ahh so it is ok to call me naive and stupid - good argument!

We will agree to disagree as I also am not going to spend energy debating with a closed mind.
 
jackessex said:
right have now posted pic of conners front feet onto my album on my profile under my horses,please have a look and tell me what you think???it shows the growth that he has on his near fore which i refure to as his third toe,it has horny growth which i have trimmed back or it touches the floor.input for boots greatly appreciated!!!
Click to expand...
I'm no expert but I can see ripples on the outer hoof wall and white line problems as well as hoof wall problems at ground level from the sole shot. It looks to me as if the hoof wall at the back of the hoof (sole shot) is over long and folding under the hoof. :confused: Tbh, I'd recommend a decent Trimmer or another Farrier to trim and that you address his diet. Grass and mineral imbalance are likely problem areas ime. Barefoot hooves need keeping at appropriate length and a roll at the base of the hoof wall at least.

Off to go back and look for the 'third toe' you mention.

Mta. Do you mean at the toe? Have a look at these pics for examples of healthy hooves. Have a look at the wall at the back of the hoof on sole shots and compare to your horse. http://www.right2remainshoeless.com/html/pin_up_s.html
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Clava said:
I only said poor horse for while he was bare and in pain, I'm sure you thought poor horse then too! My horse is also a TB and ex-racer so I am familar with the type and mine is barefoot, but to me any horse's hooves who cause the horse pain without shoes on are UNHEALTHY in some way, as healthy ones would not cause them pain when stood on soft ground.

Flat feet and thin soles do not have to be a permanent condition for a TB even if they have become that way.
Click to expand...

I apologise then! I thought you were accusing me of mistreating him! That's the problem when you're not face to face, things can get misinterpreted accidentally! I did think poor horse, which is why I immediately got his shoes put back on. Although I know of many tbs which are barefoot, and they adjust very well,I will not put mine throught the "conditioning period" to make him as I now know he wouldn't cope as his soles are that sensitive.
 
This post is fantastic! Really helpful!:)

i have had my 2 welsh mares barefoot for a long time as neither have really been in work for years, they have been lightly hacking since we moved yards in february and have been doing well on all surfaces (& we have some horrible compacted rocky tracks), although both are a bit footy after their trims.
We have really variable ground where i am which has been very wet over the winter and is now rock hard. Last week my older mare started stumbling quite badly while i was out, there has been no change to our routes, infact if anything the ground has been better as we have had a bit of rain and have been on fairly short hacks. I was starting to think something was really wrong but last night we took them round the road and she was fine again!

I am putting her changes down to following another horse for the first time in years (she has always been infront due to a lack of confidence in my youngster), if following she is quite happy to put her head down and plod along (which had me worrying that there was something really wrong!!) but last night when put infront she was back to her usual perky cheeky self
and also because she has been moved into a field with much more grass in 2 weeks ago!
I am absolutely kicking myself for not realising sooner it was the grass!
the muzzle is back in use and i will be buying some boots to go on her fronts as she is really struggling with stony ground at the moment.
Does anyone with barefoot experience have any other suggestions as to what i can do to improve her hooves? As they have been perfect! it just seems to be the grass!
 
bumblelion said:
I apologise then! I thought you were accusing me of mistreating him! That's the problem when you're not face to face, things can get misinterpreted accidentally! I did think poor horse, which is why I immediately got his shoes put back on. Although I know of many tbs which are barefoot, and they adjust very well,I will not put mine throught the "conditioning period" to make him as I now know he wouldn't cope as his soles are that sensitive.
Click to expand...

:) I wouldn't put a horse through painful conditioning either and I was just trying to help as such discomfort can mean bad things are happening and I wouldn't want that to happen to any horse. Wormers made my TB 's hooves so sensitive that she couldn't cope and I put fronts back on until it had gone from her system, she had been rock crunching the previous winter.
 
Saffron Phoenix said:
This post is fantastic! Really helpful!:)

i have had my 2 welsh mares barefoot for a long time as neither have really been in work for years, they have been lightly hacking since we moved yards in february and have been doing well on all surfaces (& we have some horrible compacted rocky tracks), although both are a bit footy after their trims.
We have really variable ground where i am which has been very wet over the winter and is now rock hard. Last week my older mare started stumbling quite badly while i was out, there has been no change to our routes, infact if anything the ground has been better as we have had a bit of rain and have been on fairly short hacks. I was starting to think something was really wrong but last night we took them round the road and she was fine again!

I am putting her changes down to following another horse for the first time in years (she has always been infront due to a lack of confidence in my youngster), if following she is quite happy to put her head down and plod along (which had me worrying that there was something really wrong!!) but last night when put infront she was back to her usual perky cheeky self
and also because she has been moved into a field with much more grass in 2 weeks ago!
I am absolutely kicking myself for not realising sooner it was the grass!
the muzzle is back in use and i will be buying some boots to go on her fronts as she is really struggling with stony ground at the moment.
Does anyone with barefoot experience have any other suggestions as to what i can do to improve her hooves? As they have been perfect! it just seems to be the grass!
Click to expand...

Magnesium oxide might well help, it helps mine with grass:) and taking her off the grass and feeding hay. Linseed, Brewers yeast and seaweed also helps hoof condition.
 
Imo, if a horse is sore something isn't right and needs addressing and protection is needed as well as work (or not) appropriate to the problem. Just battling on regardless even with protection isn't necessarily going to improve things if there are dietry and other issues causing problems such as white line disease and inflammation in the hoof. One thing barefoot has taught me is so much more about horses and there's so much more for me to learn.
 
Saffron Phoenix said:
Thanks Clava, what sort of amount of magnesium oxide do you feed per day?
Click to expand...

There is a recommended amount of 2g of magOx (heavy) per 100kg bodyweight. "Feet First" is an excellent book about getting the diet and environment right and provides a lot of detail and I found this really helpful:)

Saffron - you are local to me ;) :)
 
Ive had my mares shoes off for 18 months, during the transition process i bought some Old Macs G2's and they were a god send. She still gets a bitty footy now on stoney ground but i plan my ride as to whether i'll put her boots on or not, being shoesless isnt an easy process and you have to be aware of where you ride and what you plan to do, in the scheme of things its well worth it. Ive had her Old Macs for 18 months and they are still going strong. I feed her a balancer which is high in biotin and as an extra i give her rosehips and put naf rockhard on her feet. I hope things go well with your transition.
 
Thrush is a major cause of footiness in unshod horses which causes pain deep in the frog. It only smells when very advanced. Shod horses have it but don't feel it, hence appear sound.
 
Pale Rider said:
Thrush is a major cause of footiness in unshod horses which causes pain deep in the frog. It only smells when very advanced. Shod horses have it but don't feel it, hence appear sound.
Click to expand...

I agree with this to, the feet do need to be checked rehularly. I spray diluted detol on my mares feet if theres one sign of thrush and touchwood alls been well.
 
Agree with Pale Rider here, no frog, no hoof, no horse has a wealth of information about footiness, and how to deal with it effectively without having to resort to shoeing.
 
To get back to the subject!!!thanks for looking at pics amandap,the third toe i refer to is at the back of his near fore and it (if left to grow)comes right down and touches the floor it has soft tissue at the top of it so farrier is pretty sure it has blood going to it,so what im worried about is if i put tight fitting boots on they are going to have to press against it to get a good fit,also going back to what you where saying about, im with you on the hoof wall probs as he has some serious probs with changes going on inside the hoof so i would expect the outside to reflect this???on the xrays he has had it shows that the angle of the coffin bone was laying totaly flat to the floor so they put wedge shoes to lift the angle back up to where it should be,and slowly it went back to normal meaning that he didnt have to have wedge shoes anymore,they also picked up boney growths on the top of coffin bone where it meets the short pastern bone,so generaly "changes" going on within the foot,he has been mostly sound for about 6 months or so but now showing short stride again so im worried that maybe angles have changed again??obviously if this it the case im doing the wrong thing by taking shoes of as im assuming he would need wedges again???sorry about long post but you can see why im worried for this horse!!!!also my insurance have now excluded anything to do with feet so i cant start having loads of xrays again!!!!more help would be appreciated!!!!!!
 
jackessex said:
sorry about long post but you can see why im worried for this horse!!!!also my insurance have now excluded anything to do with feet so i cant start having loads of xrays again!!!!more help would be appreciated!!!!!!
Click to expand...
I'm posting quickly as I'm on my way out. From my learning and limited experience you cannot fix a coffin bone position by wedges, pads etc. it must be fixed by providing a correct diet, trim, support and movement. A good strong hoof capsule will then grow around the coffin bone and support and hold it in position with good white line connection and thick healthy sole and strong internal structures such as digital cushion and lateral cartilages. So my strong advice is to get a good, experienced Trimmer out to sort the trim and give you relevant advice for your horse and then follow their instructions to the letter and wait/protect/exercize as appropriate/advised while the healing happens. :)
Good luck.
 
Saffron Phoenix said:
Does anyone with barefoot experience have any other suggestions as to what i can do to improve her hooves? As they have been perfect! it just seems to be the grass!
Click to expand...

It normally is :) !!

First step - remove from grass from about 10am or earlier to 7pm or later. Grass has much higher sugar levels during those times. One of my four horses cannot cope with daytime grass but is rock crunching off it.

Second - try the supplements people are suggesting. MgO definitely. No supplements buffered with sucrose or other sugars! Top Spec balancers and alfalfa can have odd effects on some horses.

Third - test your grazing and/or forage. No amount of additives will solve things if you are high in manganese, iron and/or molybdenum or low in copper. The first three suppress copper uptake. Copper is required for insulin regulation, which is required for a horse to manage grass without footiness. Mine changed completely once I started to supplement copper. Iron and manganese overload is very, very common around my area and many others.

I am also getting a great result with one very sensitive horse on activated charcoal and I know others get a good result with a prebiotic like yea-sacc.
 
We did hinds last winter and are hoping to try fronts this winter. It does take a little time and I would suggest boots in the meantime to keep her comfortable whilst hacking. The more exercise she gets the quicker the trasition will be.
 
foxy1 said:
However, the cause of the footiness will be diet so you also need to focus your efforts on that.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily. Could be several reasons.

OP- get some boots. 2 weeks is no time, be patient and manage the horse accordingly and hopefully he will improve. Not every horse can manage without shoes however, depending on what you do with it and your facilities, etc.
 
foxy1 said:
This. No-one wants their horse foot sore. You must stick to comfortable surfaces and get hoof boots. It IS cruel to leave a horse footy in the pursuit of barefoot.

However, the cause of the footiness will be diet so you also need to focus your efforts on that.
Click to expand...

teddyt said:
Not necessarily. Could be several reasons.

OP- get some boots. 2 weeks is no time, be patient and manage the horse accordingly and hopefully he will improve. Not every horse can manage without shoes however, depending on what you do with it and your facilities, etc.
Click to expand...


I think Teddyt is right and foxy1 partially right. In my opinion the cause of footiness in a horse like this at the two week stage is weak feet from wearing shoes and possible previous diet issues. The horse will probably, quite quickly, get a lot, lot more capable with no diet changes whatsoever.

Those final bits to full rock-stomping might take a diet change, or they may not. Some horses feet are badly weakened by shoes irrespective of diet. For my first two I was totally unaware of any change of diet that might be needed and they both evented affiliated before I sorted out copper deficiency, magnesium boosting and b vitamin levels. They were icing on the cake but the cake still baked without them :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top