Shoes or barefoot?

I spoke to the YO who deals with the farrier and they said it's because she has white and flat feet (surely the colour makes no difference and they're supposed to be flat?) so because of that they wouldn't cope without shoes with the workload. I mean, I didn't just up the work suddenly, it started with once a week and has built up over 8 months to 4 times a week. Although, the fronts were put on 6 months a go as it was advised by the farrier.
She is now being shod every 6 weeks as there was practically nothing left by 8 weeks. Even after 6, they're super thin.
 
Can't go barefoot because she has flat, white feet?

Well for one, the hooves will change shape once the shoes are off and the bottom of the hoof starts making contact with the ground and working that frog!
And secondly, white feet, black feet, pink feet, it really doesn't matter. If you feed them right and look after them, white barefoot hooves will be just as rock crunching as any other colour!
My girls both have white hooves (or white with black streaks in the cobs case) and their hooves are hard as rock!

Click for pic, and do excuse the cobs manky legs, we're back on top of her skin condition now!

You can see they're on soft ground, so they've sunk into it a bit, but the filly with all four pure whites in particular has great rock crunching hooves! The mare in front can be a bit footy with her fronts if the ground in particularly sharp or stony, but the fronts have only been bare for a year now, when I got her back from a riding school, and a pair of hoofboots work a treat if I know the going is sharp. Her backs have been bare since about 4 months after I first bought her 2 1/2 years ago, and the trimmer finds them hard work to cut through as they're so hard!

I wouldn't place your farrier on so much of a pedestal, he sounds a bit set in his ways.
 
I have two.

Both cope brilliantly barefoot, on the right diet.

One has amazing hooves, tight white line. One needs a rasp round every few weeks.

The other has had fronts back on. Three years barefoot and his white line is as atoll stretched as it was when we first got him. We have stoney tracks, concrete, grass and tarmac so his feet were on all types of surfaces but his white line just wouldn't get tight so stone would go in and up. Cue abcess. So fronts on just to cover the white line.
 
I hack one of mine out 5 times a week, 1 to 2 hours on varied terrain. It is gravel tracks, grass, rocks, dirt tracks, tarmac. She copes fine. A friens of mine who last year bought 2 horses, took them barefoot. The older horse was 14, younger was 10. They were hacking out ovr gravel tracks for an hour at a time within a week of removing shoes. They were extremely lucky, their horses didn't struggle at all.
 
Nasicus said:
Can't go barefoot because she has flat, white feet?

Well for one, the hooves will change shape once the shoes are off and the bottom of the hoof starts making contact with the ground and working that frog!
And secondly, white feet, black feet, pink feet, it really doesn't matter. If you feed them right and look after them, white barefoot hooves will be just as rock crunching as any other colour!
My girls both have white hooves (or white with black streaks in the cobs case) and their hooves are hard as rock!

Click for pic, and do excuse the cobs manky legs, we're back on top of her skin condition now!

You can see they're on soft ground, so they've sunk into it a bit, but the filly with all four pure whites in particular has great rock crunching hooves! The mare in front can be a bit footy with her fronts if the ground in particularly sharp or stony, but the fronts have only been bare for a year now, when I got her back from a riding school, and a pair of hoofboots work a treat if I know the going is sharp. Her backs have been bare since about 4 months after I first bought her 2 1/2 years ago, and the trimmer finds them hard work to cut through as they're so hard!

I wouldn't place your farrier on so much of a pedestal, he sounds a bit set in his ways.
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Lovely scenery in the pic btw! Their feet are basically the same as my mares!

So I think I'm decided now and going to get them all taken off, be careful and lessen the workload slightly. What should I look for to make sure her feet are doing well? A good heel, concave base etc?
How long do I do it for until I know if it's not working?
Should I add anything to the feed? Currently Topchop Zero, magnesium, yeasacc.
In terms of instructions for the farrier after, where should he trim? Should I tell him to not rasp around the outside and under and to just do the toes?
Sorry for all the questions!
 
Slightlyconfused said:
I have two.

Both cope brilliantly barefoot, on the right diet.

One has amazing hooves, tight white line. One needs a rasp round every few weeks.

The other has had fronts back on. Three years barefoot and his white line is as atoll stretched as it was when we first got him. We have stoney tracks, concrete, grass and tarmac so his feet were on all types of surfaces but his white line just wouldn't get tight so stone would go in and up. Cue abcess. So fronts on just to cover the white line.
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How do you tell if the white line is tight or if they would be at risk of abcess?
 
Ellietotz said:
I spoke to the YO who deals with the farrier and they said it's because she has white and flat feet (surely the colour makes no difference and they're supposed to be flat?) so because of that they wouldn't cope without shoes with the workload. I mean, I didn't just up the work suddenly, it started with once a week and has built up over 8 months to 4 times a week. Although, the fronts were put on 6 months a go as it was advised by the farrier.
She is now being shod every 6 weeks as there was practically nothing left by 8 weeks. Even after 6, they're super thin.
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Building up the work does not mean going from once a week to 4 times a week, it means going from walking 10 mins a day or every other day to 1 hour a day or more over a few months gradually increasing the amount of trotting and cantering, it is probably why she didn't really cope at the twice a week stage if the rides were getting longer and faster with 5 days out of 7 doing nothing.
If you do take the shoes off you will probably have to ride/ exercise just as frequently but much more slowly doing plenty of steady walking, build her up to going without shoes and may need to boot if you want to do faster work.
 
be positive said:
Building up the work does not mean going from once a week to 4 times a week, it means going from walking 10 mins a day or every other day to 1 hour a day or more over a few months gradually increasing the amount of trotting and cantering, it is probably why she didn't really cope at the twice a week stage if the rides were getting longer and faster with 5 days out of 7 doing nothing.
If you do take the shoes off you will probably have to ride/ exercise just as frequently but much more slowly doing plenty of steady walking, build her up to going without shoes and may need to boot if you want to do faster work.
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Sorry, I didn't mean it just like that. We always do a lot of walking, only started going out more times a week when clocks changed, this was gradual too and not long as in the week they are after work, no more than half an hour/45 minutes then one longer one on the weekend around 1 and a half hours.
What should my plan of action be once the shoes are off? Do I leave her for a bit? If so, how long?
 
Ellietotz said:
How do you tell if the white line is tight or if they would be at risk of abcess?
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It's not supposed to be wider than the edge of a debit card.

Basically the one that has had shoes back on again you had to dig the stones out of his white line twice a day and it was as wide as my finger nail.
I'm pretty sure it's due to metabolic issues but he is on a ir diet anyway
 
Slightlyconfused said:
It's not supposed to be wider than the edge of a debit card.

Basically the one that has had shoes back on again you had to dig the stones out of his white line twice a day and it was as wide as my finger nail.
I'm pretty sure it's due to metabolic issues but he is on a ir diet anyway
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Could be.... even so don't get too dogmatic. My mare has white line tight and healthy - occasionally I can still pick out a fair sized pebble out of it - some had been there for ages :D
 
I try to keep mine barefoot, and I do think most horses can cope barefoot but it all depends on the workload. I have always tried to advocate keeping horses without shoes, however I had to shoe my two hunters as despite doing everything you are supposed to, they were getting cracks that spread up the hoof, they were never sore though. I have two young ponies barefoot at the moment, one has feet like rock and I can't imagine he will ever need shoes, I do have to rasp the edges after a hack though to keep them tidy. The other one will need shoes next year as he turns 5 and does more, his feet wear down much faster.

My other horse arrived to me barefoot, but he had to have shoes on due to the work he was doing. He has "shelly" feet my farrier says, and they chip and split up without regular shoeing. He hunts, events, hacks a lot and needs studs for XC. It is simply not possible for him to be barefoot! Without shoes, he goes rather pottery.

Best of luck taking them off, I do think most horses cope surprisingly well and I've often whipped shoes straight off new ponies, then immediately trotted up the road and continued without a day's soreness.
 
tallyho! said:
Could be.... even so don't get too dogmatic. My mare has white line tight and healthy - occasionally I can still pick out a fair sized pebble out of it - some had been there for ages :D
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trimming F makes a huge difference, you can start to get worried, run rasp over them and they are lovely and tight!
 
I keep mine barefoot (trimmed by a barefoot trimmer, not farrier) unless I really have to shoe. The only reasons Ive ever ended up shoeing is purely due to grip, XC for example I do find slippy without shoes and studs so I often shoe a competition horse during eventing season but then take them off and go back to barefoot trims over winter (the horse still competes, but everythings on a surface). They always cope perfectly well with being shod some of the year and barefoot the rest, I do notice they almost sigh relief when they're taken off - like taking your shoes off after a long day! Ive never had to shoe due to the hoof not coping. I think as long as the diet is good and they have decent hoof quality then theres no reason to shoe. I had a warmblood who was shod his whole life prior to me, he had a boxed hoof. After I changed him to barefoot, his boxed hoof practically disappeared - it made a huge difference.
 
The only thing I'm concerned about is the farrier must have said she needed them for a reason? I was decided but now I'm stuck again. Another reason is the shoe being a bit of a protector and she's very fast, we have a good burn on the weekend, it worries me that something will end up getting lodged in there. I just don't know whether to stick with the farriers advice or try barefoot as if he thinks she needed them, I doubt he will trim and let me know if they're doing well without or not as his opinion is obviously going to be different because he has different views. Then if it doesn't work out, I'll look stupid for thinking it could work when they need to go back on. I just don't know what to do!
 
Another thing I'm stuck with is some people say they have had to shoe because they were wearing down too quickly but then I thought this was supposed to improve over time so they eventually didn't wear down and adapted to workload?
 
If you don't feel confident, don't do it. Best to make sure you have the right knowledge and support. Otherwise it'll not work.
 
You could take them off and give it a go, letting them wear naturally can do the horse some good anyway as they can adapt to a natural shape. I have had a few horses with very iffy shoeing and squashed up heels that needed a month of hacking barefoot, purely to let the heels expand and the hoof to shape itself. Some horses carried on barefoot, some were shod. No reason to feel stupid at all!

You and your farrier know the horse best though.
 
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All different kinds of horseshoes have existed for thousands of years across the globe, as long as there have been roads really. Most took the form of slip on booty or hoof sandal, metal or straw or some other material. But, and this is a really big but, the workload of horses in the days before cars was immense compared to the leisure horses we have today. Even a sport horse out riding six days a week isn't putting in the sheer grind that an army horse 100 years ago would have had to put up with. So when it comes to hoof wear and tear, many aren't wearing down their hooves to the point where some protection is a must. Many, but not all.

Hoooowever! Hoof wear boils down to a lot of natural factors, both genetic (and therefore unable to be changed) and environmental (which we can change.) Genetic factors include horses who just naturally grow a thin hoof sole and wall that will never be thick enough to tolerate rougher surfaces despite what supplement sellers promise. The horse with 100% perfect conformation is a rare beast and their unique traits can make them grind/roll their hooves unevenly, regardless of how good the trim is. Environmental factors include things like seasonal changes, stables vs. living out, or the right diet, and there's enough posts on this forum to give a clue as to how tricky all these issues can be.

As such, taking your horse barefoot in today's world is a bit of a dark art. Those who have been most successful seem to have gone with their gut instinct, listened to --their-- horse, and ignored the majority of the sheer ton of crap written in books and posted on the internet daily. It can take a long long time for a horse to adapt, if they are ever going to.
 
tallyho! said:
Could be.... even so don't get too dogmatic. My mare has white line tight and healthy - occasionally I can still pick out a fair sized pebble out of it - some had been there for ages :D
Click to expand...

Oh don't get me wrong the spotty can still have stones in there but it's few and far between and it doesn't affect his white line at all but the other one he has huge stones every day and it just pushes the hoof away and they go up the white line.
I would prefer him barefoot but I'm not going to be fanatic (not saying you are any on eon here is) about it. If I took his shoes off tomorrow he would still be rock crunching no problem I just don't want to keep stalling his work to get rid of abcess when there's a.good alternative 😊 he is a fatty so needs to stay in work.
 
Ellietotz said:
Another thing I'm stuck with is some people say they have had to shoe because they were wearing down too quickly but then I thought this was supposed to improve over time so they eventually didn't wear down and adapted to workload?
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You can get some hoof boots, I secretly want some scoot boots but they don't go big enough, that will help you with the wearing down too quickly as you can so some rides in the boots. That's what I used to do with one of mine.
 
In response to some of the points raised so far.

1. There's is no such thing as too short a foot or too much wear on a horse which is comfortable on all surfaces.

2. Shoes weren't invented because of wear, I don't think. Feral horses cover a lot of miles and don't wear shoes. They were invented to allow people to keep horses in very sub optimal conditions, work them inconsistently, and hide the effects of common diseases like thrush.

3. It can take a lot of time for some horses. It can also take no time at all. Or anywhere in between. But the ones that take a long time are not the norm.
 
Ellietotz said:
Another thing I'm stuck with is some people say they have had to shoe because they were wearing down too quickly but then I thought this was supposed to improve over time so they eventually didn't wear down and adapted to workload?
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Have you read some of the rockley posts? There is nothing lost in starting to read up on the subject. Start to understand the concept and the whys and wherefores. You don't sound ready, as you sound totally beholden to this farrier for some reason. You're paying him for a service, you're not bonded for life to him remember! He sounds awful and very fixed in his views and you will not make the transition successfully with him doing your horses feet. He'll be there to say 'I told you so' if you have any glitches.
 
fattylumpkin said:
All different kinds of horseshoes have existed for thousands of years across the globe, as long as there have been roads really. Most took the form of slip on booty or hoof sandal, metal or straw or some other material. But, and this is a really big but, the workload of horses in the days before cars was immense compared to the leisure horses we have today. Even a sport horse out riding six days a week isn't putting in the sheer grind that an army horse 100 years ago would have had to put up with. So when it comes to hoof wear and tear, many aren't wearing down their hooves to the point where some protection is a must. Many, but not all.

Hoooowever! Hoof wear boils down to a lot of natural factors, both genetic (and therefore unable to be changed) and environmental (which we can change.) Genetic factors include horses who just naturally grow a thin hoof sole and wall that will never be thick enough to tolerate rougher surfaces despite what supplement sellers promise. The horse with 100% perfect conformation is a rare beast and their unique traits can make them grind/roll their hooves unevenly, regardless of how good the trim is. Environmental factors include things like seasonal changes, stables vs. living out, or the right diet, and there's enough posts on this forum to give a clue as to how tricky all these issues can be.

As such, taking your horse barefoot in today's world is a bit of a dark art. Those who have been most successful seem to have gone with their gut instinct, listened to --their-- horse, and ignored the majority of the sheer ton of crap written in books and posted on the internet daily. It can take a long long time for a horse to adapt, if they are ever going to.
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Thank you for this, a lot of good info. She wasn't uncomfortable before they were put on and she isn't uncomfortable now. I don't know why I want to change it, I just feel like it would be nicer for her if they were natural. Maybe in the winter when the clocks go back, I will take the backs off and see how it goes as I won't be doing very long rides or as often then as it's too dark and I have no lighting in the school! I also think £80 for a full set is a waste if they're not getting much use! Money isn't the issue though but I wouldn't dislike not spending that every 6 weeks!
 
Winter is a good time to take shoes off as the ground is going to be softer (let's completely ignore the August deluge we're having now and assume the sun will return!).

Both my freebie horses came to me barefoot and with farrier issues, which meant shoeing wasn't an option. Its been a steep learning curve because they are both completely different in terms of how their hooves adapt. Quite interesting really. One will self trim effectively despite being retired and spending 99% of his time on a grass paddock. The other grows hoof wall at the speed of light and its so strong it doesn't break off even after 6 months and her practically on stilts- she's never been shod. I find the trim versus self-trim debate quite interesting and its an area where I need to educate myself more.

BTW - some farriers will want to shoe anything that is put in front of them because that's their comfort zone. I've seen shoes put on horses that don't need them numerous times.
 
PoppyAnderson said:
There is nothing lost in starting to read up on the subject. Start to understand the concept and the whys and wherefores. You don't sound ready
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I completely agree with this.

I am very pro barefoot (though not a fanatical "no shoes ever"). I strongly suspect from what you have said your mare doesn't need to be shod and would be healthier without shoes.

However, my experience of going barefoot on a livery yard is that you need to be either 1. Very strong and secure in yourself, your horse care and your decision, or 2. Employing a supportive and experienced hoof professional who totally supports your horse being barefoot and can argue your case for you (whether farrier or trimmer). Ideally both. Its amazing how many people feel really strongly about not shoeing a horse that is in work and can be quite aggressive and nasty about it. You don't sound like you are either at the moment and I suspect would take a fair amount of flak from both your current farrier and your YO which you may not be able to deal with.

I started thinking about taking mine barefoot over a year before I actually did it. Planning in advance also means you can make diet changes, sort out thrush and generally improve your knowledge of hoof health (which are good things even if you decide to keep her shod).
 
laura_nash said:
I completely agree with this.

I am very pro barefoot (though not a fanatical "no shoes ever"). I strongly suspect from what you have said your mare doesn't need to be shod and would be healthier without shoes.

However, my experience of going barefoot on a livery yard is that you need to be either 1. Very strong and secure in yourself, your horse care and your decision, or 2. Employing a supportive and experienced hoof professional who totally supports your horse being barefoot and can argue your case for you (whether farrier or trimmer). Ideally both. Its amazing how many people feel really strongly about not shoeing a horse that is in work and can be quite aggressive and nasty about it. You don't sound like you are either at the moment and I suspect would take a fair amount of flak from both your current farrier and your YO which you may not be able to deal with.

I started thinking about taking mine barefoot over a year before I actually did it. Planning in advance also means you can make diet changes, sort out thrush and generally improve your knowledge of hoof health (which are good things even if you decide to keep her shod).
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Luckily, the YO is the only other person I share the yard with so I wouldn't have to worry about what people thought. I think the only thing that concerns me is not knowing if it's going okay and if she is doing well. So like you said, I would need a hoof professional. Having said that, I spoke to the YO about looking into going barefoot and how the farrier would react and she said he would be happy to advise on what to do so perhaps I am worrying for no reason. Plus, I don't know what he will be like until I try. Although I think his advice would be biased but I'm hoping he will be open to trying.

Knowing me, I will obsessively research supplements and how to manage her to get the best hoof quality. I can add salt and linseed if it helps too. We are right on the forest so I don't have to worry about doing too much road work if any but I read that road work is good for the feet so I will do little and often to help build them up.

Another thing I'm worried about though is them cracking up to where the nail holes were and I think this will be normal? But I'm worried that the YO will say how terrible they look and I get anxious that I've done the wrong thing. Her feet were perfectly fine before being shod when I look back at pictures from before. I don't know what the white line was like though because I didn't know enough about it then.
The YO also mentioned that it will put my mare at serious risk of abscesses and that the farrier wouldn't have shod her if he didn't think she needed them. I am all over the place about it but I really do think they would be fine if I didn't have them. She has lived her whole life without shoes and although not worked for 5 years before me, I don't see why she couldn't continue if managed correctly.

There are so many reasons why I want to go barefoot but I'm going to list the pros and cons that matter to me just because I want them written in front of me.

Barefoot Pros:
- Natural
- Shock Absorbing
- Healthy
- Better grip on roads

Barefoot Cons:
- Risk of abscesses
- Not knowing if they are doing well or not (though this can be solved by a knowledgeable person)

Shod Pros:
- Protection on rough terrain
- Lower risk of abscesses

Shod Cons:
- Unnatural
- Less shock absorption
- Slippery on roads
- Cuts herself when overreaching and on the back pastern area
- Expensive if having them without needing them

Her feet weren't cracking or soft, she's never suffered from laminitis etc so I can't see why she cannot be barefoot.

What I need to know as well is the proper reason why my farrier thought she needed them to help me understand it all more.
 
all mine are barefoot so it may be a biased barefoot response to your last post.
how much experience does your YO have of riding and keeping barefoot horses? ie what is their advice to you based on. Real experience of barefoot?

for the most part farriers shoe horses. Some have very firm views that horses should be shod. Unless your farrier has a lot of experience in producing sound, ridden barefoot horses I would question his views that your horse needs shoes. It probably does in his opinion as he doesn't know a great deal about the alternative. Your farrier may be happy to advise but what experience is his advice based on? His real reason for saying she needed them may well be that he shoes horses. That is his job.

they will crack up to the nail holes. You can help this by using a sanding block around the edges to keep them running smooth. They may not look pretty whilst the new growth is coming down but does it really matter. The hoof you should be worrying about is the new growth at the top. That at the bottom is history.

I don't understand why it will put the horse at risk of abscesses. I have had one horse that abscessed a lot. That was due to the fact he had cushings. Once the cushings was resolved he no longer abscessed. I have had horses who were barefoot and are now dead (in their 20's and 30"s) of old age. Most never had a single abscess in their lifetime of barefoot. Only 2 abscessed once each. One of those stood on a nail and would have abscessed barefoot or shod.

Of your barefoot pro's the most important is health. My number one reason is I want healthy feet.

You say shod pro is less risk of abscesses which I don't really agree with and protection on rough terrain. How are they better protected? a sliver of metal which after 6 weeks will be very thin is all that keeps them off the ground. If you want real protection then boots are the answer. They really protect the sole. The shoes will keep gravel/small stones out of the white line but it they will also trap bugs in there. Have a look when your shoes next come off. It won't be exactly clean.

Before doing anything I think it would be better to ask people who ride barefoot horses, go and look at their horses if possible and get some idea as to what a good foot looks like and how it is all going to work for you. If you find a trimmer (or barefoot farrier) ask for references and follow them up. They should be able to supply you with a range of people with sound, ridden barefoot horses. Find out how these people have transitioned their horses, what they did to make it work. That way you will be better placed to make a decision.
In the meantime I would use a really good supplement to enhance growth. I use the equimins one, many use forage plus ones with success.

Somewhere I think you were asking about the white line. If you haven't already done so try
www.barefoothorse.com that is the original barefoot site with diagrams of the foot (including the WL) and photos of various feet. Very basic but it may give you a start.
 
paddy555 said:
all mine are barefoot so it may be a biased barefoot response to your last post.
how much experience does your YO have of riding and keeping barefoot horses? ie what is their advice to you based on. Real experience of barefoot?
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None really, only had one horse they had for 26 years that was barefoot. Reason being ''had black feet so harder''....... So I'm going to go with no experience. Their advice was, it puts her at risk of abscesses and that the farrier is always right.

paddy555 said:
for the most part farriers shoe horses. Some have very firm views that horses should be shod. Unless your farrier has a lot of experience in producing sound, ridden barefoot horses I would question his views that your horse needs shoes. It probably does in his opinion as he doesn't know a great deal about the alternative. Your farrier may be happy to advise but what experience is his advice based on? His real reason for saying she needed them may well be that he shoes horses. That is his job.
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I'm not sure how far his experience goes with barefoot but he would trim down YO's other horse that was barefoot all her life and would have advised if the horse had needed shoes or not. In a way, this makes me think then mine must need them and he doesn't just put them on for no reason. I don't know.

paddy555 said:
I don't understand why it will put the horse at risk of abscesses. I have had one horse that abscessed a lot. That was due to the fact he had cushings. Once the cushings was resolved he no longer abscessed. I have had horses who were barefoot and are now dead (in their 20's and 30"s) of old age. Most never had a single abscess in their lifetime of barefoot. Only 2 abscessed once each. One of those stood on a nail and would have abscessed barefoot or shod.
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Mine has never been lame from what I have known for the last few years, never had an abscess and never suffered from laminitis.

It all seems very complicated and I wish it would be as simple as just taking them off, feeding them good supplements and that's it but there is so much to it!
 
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