shoes - so what do you think to these...???

I've done two with soles thin enough to bend with my fingers. The first I did in the autumn so that he could be comfortable on a soft wet field. The second I had no option but to do in spring, he was going to be put down, but I gave him options of a soft deep bed of shavings, a concrete yard and rubber mats to stand on and he chose for himself where to be comfortable. I therefore can't agree with you that your mare needed transition through shoes, sorry, though I understand why you did it.
 
cptrayes said:
I've done two with soles thin enough to bend with my fingers. The first I did in the autumn so that he could be comfortable on a soft wet field. The second I had no option but to do in spring, he was going to be put down, but I gave him options of a soft deep bed of shavings, a concrete yard and rubber mats to stand on and he chose for himself where to be comfortable. I therefore can't agree with you that your mare needed transition through shoes, sorry, though I understand why you did it.
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Yeah that was my ellieboo's feet to a tee....awful and really hard work to transition. TBF the n/b didn't really do a great deal of good but with the really wide toe and wide heel support on the cytek (and a very knowledgable barefoot bloke, this was a good 7 years ago now so they were few and far between - Mark Johnson who was my saviour) just gave her that extra support to grow a little bit of heel before the transition.

I too was in the same boat, crippled in shoes, couldn't stand on a bed without shoes - i was very ignorant of diet and lgl in t/bs (as were the vets) at that time and i searched and found Mark Johnson and Cytek or i would have had her pts also. Within days she was comfortable on the cytek shoes and in a year or so we made the transition and it was a little more comfortable for her than doing the straight transition.

He introduced me to the minefield of diet and management of feet etc. Unfortunately i couldn't stable ellie, she was a cribber and if she stayed in she'd colic and was really sensitive to any grass changes/wormers/would get really footy after a colic episode....oh and wouldn't keep weight on either. :rolleyes: I also think that the rolling back motion of her cribbing (she was awful for it - would colic if she couldn't) also had an detrimental effect on her heels with the hoof growth being so weak.

Unfortunately, i found out all this stuff too late, had i found out earlier on in her life she probably would've had a chance to grow some proper feet but i only discovered Mark at the last minute so i was fighting a losing battle. I did manage to keep her going for another 6 years or so like that (bless her little heart, she was such a stoic little mare) supplementing her up to the eyeballs with trinity products (and by 'ec did they help) and it was only as i retired her that she started to go down hill. I had her pts at the ripe old age of 22 and i think i did well keeping her comfortable for that long.

It's a tough old road....i'm just grateful i took experience from that and can now monitor my new beast (who i bought for her oak solid tooties might i add :D) and really keep on top of it and be aware that changes in her personality or way of going can be a sign of something more serious. :)

Essay - sure you didn't want to hear my horse life story but there we go :D
 
PooJay said:
I don't think that's a fair comment. It's not the farriers fault that tb feet are poor - owners decide to have shoes put on their horses and farriers do the best job they can with the feet they are confronted with.

In my experience (and i had a t/b mare with horrific feet) farrier's (and i tried a number) could do nothing, Cytek helped for a while but no shoe, no farrier and no other style of shoeing other than N/B and Cytek had any kind of impact - and cytek and n/b only had an impact because the shoe was supporting the sole of the foot more than a standard shoe.

It's diet and management that has the biggest impact imo.
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The farriers around here always leave the toes too long. They could advise about diet if that's the problem but I see horses/ponies without lameness but with progressively longer toes:eek: Not all will end up with problems but most will be diagnosed with navicular in time. Oh and one I know in particular is shod every six weeks but he still leaves the toes to grow longer, he's a young farrier too, should know better.:mad:
 
muff747 said:
The farriers around here always leave the toes too long. They could advise about diet if that's the problem but I see horses/ponies without lameness but with progressively longer toes:eek: Not all will end up with problems but most will be diagnosed with navicular in time. Oh and one I know in particular is shod every six weeks but he still leaves the toes to grow longer, he's a young farrier too, should know better.:mad:
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It's a tough one - does the person that uses this farrier ask for him to take the toes back when he's shoeing the horse?

i would never not be there and never not be looking at the foot and asking questions when mine is being trimmed - or shod if she was in shoes.

A farrier with excellent rep here, recommended by top physio did a ridiculously bad job on a friends horse because she couldn't be there and wasn't asking questions and talking him through the horses issues.

I guess they probably get complacent, do what they've always done, slip into bad habits - they're busy people and at the end of the day if someone is not there that moment, reminding them what they should be doing for their horse, they'll do the very best to get done and onto the next horse to earn more ££££. It is totally unacceptable but i have to say, they're only human....
 
Mark Johnson is definitely super-human, :) A registered farrier who REALLY knows how to manage barefoot horses, member of the UKNHCP too. AND a really nice guy!
 
cptrayes said:
Mark Johnson is definitely super-human, :) A registered farrier who REALLY knows how to manage barefoot horses, member of the UKNHCP too. AND a really nice guy!
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He was so helpful and i'll be eternally grateful to him, even though i no longer use him :( He couldn't do enough for me and ellie and was there within hours armed with hoof boots when i'd made the decision to take her shoes off.

It really wasn't an easy decision to make as i knew it was going to be a ridiculously hard journey (as barefoot was a relatively new idea then, certainly for horses with problem feet) but he was there, supporting me, offering advice and answering the endless stream of numpty questions i had. Bless him, Mark, if you're reading somewhere - you were a godsend! :p :D lol
 
PooJay said:
It's a tough one - does the person that uses this farrier ask for him to take the toes back when he's shoeing the horse?

A farrier with excellent rep here, recommended by top physio did a ridiculously bad job on a friends horse because she couldn't be there and wasn't asking questions and talking him through the horses issues.

I guess they probably get complacent, do what they've always done, slip into bad habits - they're busy people and at the end of the day if someone is not there that moment, reminding them what they should be doing for their horse, they'll do the very best to get done and onto the next horse to earn more ££££. It is totally unacceptable but i have to say, they're only human....
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If a dentist made a mess of filling your teeth because you didn't talk him thro the way you chew your food, would you say "he's only human"?
If a surgeon made a mess of an operation you had because you were asleep at the time, would you say the same?
If your hairdresser made a mess of cutting your hair, would you say the same?
The farriers are doing an appalling job, in fact they are not doing their job, no excuses for being human - if I made a mess of my job I would be sacked.
This is not an oversight or a slip of the hand or a one off mistake, this is routine neglect of their duties as a farrier i.e. to shoe a horse correctly so that the feet are balanced and will support the horses weight without causing long term pain and injury, which results in much anguish and worry and financially cripples owners who want to heal there poor horses feet. And quite often, if they don't find the barefoot way, they end up losing their beloved horses - all because of the farriers dereliction of duty:mad::mad:
The owners are responsible novices who have learnt how to care for their horse and have entrusted their farrier to do the right thing. They haven't got the benefit of five years of intensive farrieriery training so they can check up on whether he is doing a good job or not. I had learnt all I could about foot balance and hoof/pastern angle etc but without the benefit of experience, I didn't know what collapsed heels looked like until the vet showed me. I didn't go round looking at everyone elses horses feet to compare to mine. It wasn't until I had a problem that I learnt what damage had been done, we all have to learn and can only go by what level of knowledge we have at the time.
Sorry for the rant, but I think it is such a shame that so many people are thinking their horses feet are ok because that is how most horses feet look in my area. In fact they think my horses feet are too short in the toe and that's why he is footy!
 
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muff747 said:
If a dentist made a mess of filling your teeth because you didn't talk him thro the way you chew your food, would you say "he's only human"?
If a surgeon made a mess of an operation you had because you were asleep at the time, would you say the same?
If your hairdresser made a mess of cutting your hair, would you say the same?
The farriers are doing an appalling job, in fact they are not doing their job, no excuses for being human - if I made a mess of my job I would be sacked.
This is not an oversight or a slip of the hand or a one off mistake, this is routine neglect of their duties as a farrier i.e. to shoe a horse correctly so that the feet are balanced and will support the horses weight without causing long term pain and injury, which results in much anguish and worry and financially cripples owners who want to heal there poor horses feet. And quite often, if they don't find the barefoot way, they end up losing their beloved horses - all because of the farriers dereliction of duty:mad::mad:
The owners are responsible novices who have learnt how to care for their horse and have entrusted their farrier to do the right thing. They haven't got the benefit of five years of intensive farrieriery training so they can check up on whether he is doing a good job or not. I had learnt all I could about foot balance and hoof/pastern angle etc but without the benefit of experience, I didn't know what collapsed heels looked like until the vet showed me. I didn't go round looking at everyone elses horses feet to compare to mine. It wasn't until I had a problem that I learnt what damage had been done, we all have to learn and can only go by what level of knowledge we have at the time.
Sorry for the rant, but I think it is such a shame that so many people are thinking their horses feet are ok because that is how most horses feet look in my area. In fact they think my horses feet are too short in the toe and that's why he is footy!
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Of course I would be annoyed at hairdressers and dentists doing a bad job, however, i would be there telling the dentist, oh i'm having problems with my wisdom tooth, it hurts - can you have a look at it. Plus i wouldn't expect a hairdresser to know what i wanted doing with my hair unless i told them.

I do think it is the owners responsibility to make themselves aware of what a horses foot should look like and how it functions - and at the end of the day, the owners are the ones seeing their horses move and perform on a daily basis. No foot no horse couldn't be truer and owners know this, to plead ignorance of how a foot should perform is a little bit of a cop out imo...too much info available out there not to know!

Don't get me wrong, of course i think farriers have a duty of care and i think it's appalling what some farriers get away with but my point was and still is....it is not all the farriers fault and owners need to take as much responsibility for their horses feet as the farriers do :)
 
PooJay said:
....it is not all the farriers fault and owners need to take as much responsibility for their horses feet as the farriers do :)
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How can they take as much responsibility without having the same education and knowledge about hooves as the farrier should have. The average owner trusts their farrier to know what is best for their horses hooves, how many times have we seen "ask your farrier what he thinks" on threads about problems with hooves? I agree that owners need to take more interest and responsibility for their horses hooves and I think barefooters end up doing this, but when a horse is shod it is out of most owner's knowledge and the trust that farriers will not ruin their horses hooves is very strong. They are trained to care for hooves and the owner is paying them for that knowledge and education. I don't expect to tell or supervise my vet as he diagnoses illnesses (but take a strong interest, but it is his responsibility if I have called him) and if my horse was shod I would expect my farrier to be responsible, professional and have more knowledge than I do (that is what he is trained / paid for in theory).
 
The thing is care of horses and their hooves is down 90% or more to the owner/carer. A Farrier or Trimmer and even Vets can't help much and certainly can't rehab a horses hooves if the owner isn't on board and fully committed to actually giving the care day to day that the horse needs. That usually means dietry and management changes and some might be an awful lot of work and may require out of the box thinking in current livery etc.
Owners have a duty to learn about horses and hooves are part of the horse and I have come to believe they are windows to our horses general health not isolated parts that are fixed by a shoe or trim.
Horses are complicated living beings just as we are and how you live and what you eat has a huge effect on our health and so it does on horses health. The way we keep and feed horses traditionally is far from what they evolved... some horses cope fine but many 'need shoes' and eventually their hooves and/or bodies break down and have to be relieved of pain...

I do think some farriers and trimmers should advise more about diet and living conditions from what I read and they should certainly keep up to date with modern thinking. Owners have to realize that putting a different shoe on or trimming in a different way is not a cure and is in fact far from it. Horses general health is in the main down to owners...

I do agree that owners shouldn't be in a position where they have to direct trimming etc. but this is the situation we have at present in many cases, it seems, until all hoof care professionals (and Vets) get up to speed with modern thinking and knowledge. If owners can do it so can they!

A new text book will be published soon btw for those with a serious interest. http://www.hoofrehab.com/RameyBookOutline.htm
 
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Clava said:
How can they take as much responsibility without having the same education and knowledge about hooves as the farrier should have. The average owner trusts their farrier to know what is best for their horses hooves, how many times have we seen "ask your farrier what he thinks" on threads about problems with hooves? I agree that owners need to take more interest and responsibility for their horses hooves and I think barefooters end up doing this, but when a horse is shod it is out of most owner's knowledge and the trust that farriers will not ruin their horses hooves is very strong. They are trained to care for hooves and the owner is paying them for that knowledge and education. I don't expect to tell or supervise my vet as he diagnoses illnesses (but take a strong interest, but it is his responsibility if I have called him) and if my horse was shod I would expect my farrier to be responsible, professional and have more knowledge than I do (that is what he is trained / paid for in theory).
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I'm not disputing that at all, of course they should be more knowledgable but part of the management of hoof care should sit with the owner. If you are not happy or you have questions you should be chasing for answers and finding out things yourself from books and the internet. If you don't understand something you may have found on the internet, then ask your farrier and discuss with him! This will build a better relationship and you can talk to him and find solutions to problems together?!?!? :confused:

Look, nobody is going to change the way farriery works because you can't regulate farriery to the point of checking and xraying every horse that a farrier touches - knowing the industry and knowing the shoddy work of "SOME" farriers, imo that should ring alarm bells and prompt owners to take some responsibility on managing their horses feet. Yeah, in an ideal world all farriers are perfect and all owners never need to worry about their horses feet because all farriers are dishing out perfect advice and trimming and shoeing perfectly....BUT we're not in an ideal world, some farriers are ****, even the brilliant ones sometimes need some direction!

My point is - knowing all of the above, is it not sensible that owners need to take responsibilty and recognise when a farrier isn't doing a good job and act on it or at least question why he's doing something? :confused: if not then god help our poor bloody horses!

Problems don't just manifest in the hoof shape, they manifest in the horses way of going, length of stride - willingness to move forward (none of which the farrier will know because i doubt very much if he can remember what your horse looked like in walk when it was last shod - that's if you insist yourself that the farrier sees your horse walk before and after it is shod?) If you don't communicate that to your farrier then how is he supposed to do a perfect job?
 
I think it might me worth mentioning that there are still some horse owners around who rate their farrier by how long the shoes stay on. Horses shod short and with slightly small shoes are less likely to pull shoes off.
I have seen terrible feet/shoeing,but the owners claim to have a brilliant farrier because they never lose shoes and can leave it 12 weeks between shoeings!
 
ooh very interested in the book too :) Some very interesting points brought up thank you to all. Much is the opinions I have been looking for so thats fab! The horse is doing much better now but still has a long way to go as he has to be trimmed in stages due to the stress the shoeing has put on his tendons! Will add a new post with pics soon to show the improvement and open for thoughts :D
 
Very good advice has been given on feet but since no one has mentioned, he needs to lose some weight. None of that is helping his cause. So really take a look at diet too.

Terri
 
I havent read all other replies but i expect im going to be echoing a lot of them! Very very contracted heels (probably deep sulcus infection - my boy suffered with both when i got him) get those shoes off!!! i would not be happy if a farrier shod a horse of mine like that. The very reason i refuse to have shoes on mine!
 
Equilibrium Ireland said:
Very good advice has been given on feet but since no one has mentioned, he needs to lose some weight. None of that is helping his cause. So really take a look at diet too.

Terri
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I didn't mention it because I don't agree with you. The horse's ribs are visible under the skin, there is a good "poverty line" on the rump and there is a big hollow in front of the hip bone. The horse has a dropped belly, due to worms or lack of muscle tone, but it's not fat.
 
my old farrier (I now use a trimmer) said he used to recommend that horses get a 'shoe holiday' every year, just like working horses (eg hunters and competition horses when competitions weren't year round and noone did dressage) used to. the vast majority of owners just weren't up for it-wanting their horses shod for their convenience year round. if he didnt shoe, they would go to a farrier that would.
 
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