short coupled pros and cons?

[cob&onion]

Can anyone tell me the pros and cons of a short coupled compact welsh D, seems my boy is one and can only take a 17" saddle max! He is in a 6ft rug.Normally am better suited to a 17.5 saddle.Am hoping to do dressage with him, he's naturally uphill and has good hind leg action but nice flowing paces.Only been backed acweek and now hacking out quietly.He is 3 yrs 8 months.
Does anyone else have a short coupled horse, what do you do with yours

 

[siennamum]

We have a very short coupled horse - complicated by the fact that the horse's rider if 6ft 4!!

They have a 17 inch saddle also which is too short for the rider. We have had a couple of adjustments made to the saddle to give the rider more knee room for instance.
I am concerned that he rider is too far back on the horses back, he sits a few inches behind the horses centre of gravity imo. (although I see this a lot anyway), consequently the horse was worked for months on general fattening work before he had much asked of him. I thought he needed to be as strong in the back as possible.
The downside is that rider can slip easily into a chair seat, he, has to keep reminding himself to put his heels under his body which is good discipline, but not always easy. Horse is overreactive to balance changes, which isn't ideal.
Positives are that they will never be told in a test that horse isn't engaged or tracking up, here's a pic to demo:

 

[Kat]

I have a 16hh horse that is short coupled. We also have saddle issues, my 6ft2 long legged husband spent 2 yrs riding in a 17" saddle. The saddle fitter thought it was a miracle he wasn't singing like the beegees! We solved the problem by getting a solution saddle which can sit much further forward without restricting the the shoulder, expensive but worth it as it improved everyone's comfort.

 

[Copperpot]

For one of mine I had the saddle made with a 17" panel for the horse and a 17.5" seat for me.

 

[cob&onion]

My D is approx 14.2 so not too tall. Atm he is in a 16.5" saddle which is a bit on the small side for me, howevrr I tend to ride quite long so no real knees of flaps problems.
Ps that pally is lovely

 

[Sussexbythesea]

I have a short coupled WB with a high-wither and it has been difficult to fit him. I have a Kieffer GP and a made to measure Dressage. However according to both saddler and physio the saddle can sit back further than you might think just by looking. Mine looks like it sits too far back but it doesn't go beyond his last rib if you trace it upwards. I guess his rib cage and first part of his back is a decent length but the bit that sits behind the saddle is very short.

Mine has been previously diagnosed with close spinal processes and SI strain I don't know if this is related to his short back but I have we have still had many years of fun together.

 

[cptrayes]

I have a short coupled warmblood who has just had six kissing spines separated. I think it's related.

Wow saddles can be fitted with a shorter panel on a longer seat.

 

[pennyturner]

I have a 12.3hh welsh with such a short back he looks like a cut and shut.

He's the strongest little thing I've ever come across. Takes an adult with ease (good bone also), and extremely agile. He's a superb driving pony also.

Downside is that there's NOTHING in front of you. He's fast, and in his younger days would put in the occasional exuberant head between legs buck. Like sitting on a bouncy motorised bar stool!

I don't know if this is related to his conformation, but he can trot at astounding speed. At top speed his canter transition rearranges the legs with no change of velocity at all. Feels lovely.

He was very difficult to fit for a saddle. The only way to get my bum on him is to use an ancient flat, half panel pony saddle. I must be a bit weird, because I like the close contact, and find it very comfortable.

 

[soulfull]

I've just had a saddle made. The part for horse is 17inch. But seat is. 17.5inch. Looks and works really well. Also I've had Velcro dressage and showing blocks. These also work great
Sshhh Made direct by black country saddles for less than. £1k .

 

[Turks]

I haven't had direct experience but would worry about KS and general overreach injuries. Bonus would be that the engine would always be underneath you.

 

[scheherazade]

I am not sure if this is related to being shorter coupled or not, but the shortest coupled horse I ever sat on had the most phenomenal buck! Thanksfully he grew out of it but as a 5 year old he could buck for Britain!

 

[siennamum]

I have a short coupled warmblood who has just had six kissing spines separated. I think it's related.

Wow saddles can be fitted with a shorter panel on a longer seat.

I would have expected a long back to be more prone to kissing spines. Mine has had a bad back - caused by a treeless, I live in dread of him having back problems. Why do you think a short back is likely to be more prone to KS specifically.

 

[Dukey]

You can have a saddle made with a larger seat I have experience of both long and short back horses. Both have had problems, but only KS spine I have known is in the short backed horse. But I would also be put off buying a long backed horse, through bad experiences there... I try to ensure that the horse is in proportion, so I know some TB's with long backs but they have long necks and legs, in which case I haven't know it to cause a problem (other than engagement in dressage)... I get concerned if the back is noticeably too long or short...

 

[cptrayes]

I would have expected a long back to be more prone to kissing spines. Mine has had a bad back - caused by a treeless, I live in dread of him having back problems. Why do you think a short back is likely to be more prone to KS specifically.

Every horse has the same number of vertebrae. If you take two horses with a similar amount of bone, then the one with the shorter back will have dorsal spinal processes closer together. It seems to me to stand to reason that if they start closer together then there is more likelihood that they will touch.

Like others, more of the short backed horses I've known have been phenomenal buckers!! There are weaknesses with long backs too though, and at least kissing spines can be fixed in most cases.

 

[siennamum]

interesting & obvious haha. Ours doesn't buck, but has a wicked spin, he is designed to spin round his hind legs & happy to demonstrate.

 

[cptrayes]

interesting & obvious haha. Ours doesn't buck, but has a wicked spin, he is designed to spin round his hind legs & happy to demonstrate.

Mine to. Number one evasion is a wicked spin. He nearly fell on the road this morning spinning because of a sheep!

 

[twiggy2]

Every horse has the same number of vertebrae. If you take two horses with a similar amount of bone, then the one with the shorter back will have dorsal spinal processes closer together. It seems to me to stand to reason that if they start closer together then there is more likelihood that they will touch.

Like others, more of the short backed horses I've known have been phenomenal buckers!! There are weaknesses with long backs too though, and at least kissing spines can be fixed in most cases.

I think if the back is shorter the vertebrae are likely to be shorter too, it would not mean the space between the vertebrae must be closer. The kissing spines that I have known first hand have all been longer backed and I always put it down to the back swaying due to lack of supporting muscle and when the back sways the spinal processes must (in my mind anyway) become closer at the top.

Hope that makes sense

 

[Fransurrey]

For one of mine I had the saddle made with a 17" panel for the horse and a 17.5" seat for me.

I did similar for my exmoor, who is short coupled, even taking into account that he's 12hh. When I got him he came with a saddle that sat practically on his neck. This has been the main con for me - the saddle issues (going through them again, now). Other con is that in hoof boots, he tends to over reach if I use bulkier ones on his hinds. Currently trying out the transitions and these are the best so far, but I'm still nervous on certain terrain. No problem in shoes, though.

 

[Spot_On]

I think if the back is shorter the vertebrae are likely to be shorter too, it would not mean the space between the vertebrae must be closer. The kissing spines that I have known first hand have all been longer backed and I always put it down to the back swaying due to lack of supporting muscle and when the back sways the spinal processes must (in my mind anyway) become closer at the top.

Hope that makes sense

I was thinking this too. All the horses I know with KS were all long backed horses.

My gelding was short backed, very good at bucking and spinning when he felt like it- often near sheep! Never had issues with his back per se, but finding a saddle to fit a wide,short, flat backed cob wasn't easy, as I needed a 16.5" and he needed no more than a 16", but found made to measure was the way to go.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

my old horse was 15.1h and a 6ft rug. I rode in a wow and he was fine. over reaching was a problem, especially when younger-took his shoes off and solved the problem. he was also short in the neck so the spinning (lusitano cow pony) was interesting until I learned to ride it. would always choose a short coupled over a long back-had one of those on loan over the summer, bleuch.

also have an exmoor who is quite short coupled, he seems to take a 16.5 atm which I can just about manage in but am looking at endurance saddles as have used them in the past on the old exmoor with some success (he's long in the back but smaller).

 

[PolarSkye]

Mine to. Number one evasion is a wicked spin. He nearly fell on the road this morning spinning because of a sheep!

Ha ha . . . and that's sort of how Kal did actually fall on the road while out hunting . . . muppet horse.

P

 

[khalswitz]

My 17hh TB is short coupled - doesn't look too bad from photos but saddle fitting is a nightmare espesh with the high withers... he can also buck for Britain. They can be prone to overreach/forging (mine went through a stage of forging), but you don't tend to get comments about not tracking up which is nice when compared to my old long backed WB!

 

[cptrayes]

I think if the back is shorter the vertebrae are likely to be shorter too, it would not mean the space between the vertebrae must be closer. The kissing spines that I have known first hand have all been longer backed and I always put it down to the back swaying due to lack of supporting muscle and when the back sways the spinal processes must (in my mind anyway) become closer at the top.

Hope that makes sense

I understand your point about the instability of a longer back but if my horse had not had a short back there is simply no way that the dsps could have been this close together in the first place.

 

[SpottyTB]

I have a 15 hand short backed mare.. she takes a 5'9 rug max (sometimes 5'6 will do) and her saddle is 17" and that's the most she could manage.. She's a fantastic jumper - can pop 4ft fairly easily.. but getting her to lengthen her stride is quite difficult - she rides and moves like a little stompy pony!
I think she'd do a nice test if schooled on but i like to jump and she's got adequate schooling to go clear .. i like her because its like riding a little pony.. but with just enough height that i don't look daft.. wish she was a few inches taller though!

 

[khalswitz]

I understand your point about the instability of a longer back but if my horse had not had a short back there is simply no way that the dsps could have been this close together in the first place.

I would disagree. That will be to do with comparative length of the spines to length of back rather than just because the back is short if that makes sense? In a long back, vertebrae and larger and spines longer generally, in a short back the opposite - it isn't the same vertebrae crammed in a smaller space, the vertebrae and spines are smaller. When you get abnormalities in either long or short backed vertebrae you will have problems - long spines in a short backed horse can cause KS, equally short spines in a long backed horse can cause ligament strain. It will be the comparative size of the spines that is the problem, not so much the length of the back - there is no evidence that length of back correlates with predisposition to KS.

 

[twiggy2]

I understand your point about the instability of a longer back but if my horse had not had a short back there is simply no way that the dsps could have been this close together in the first place.

If each vertebrae were longer in a longer back then of course they could, it is how the spine is put together not the length of the back that causes the problem

 

[cptrayes]

I would disagree. That will be to do with comparative length of the spines to length of back rather than just because the back is short if that makes sense? In a long back, vertebrae and larger and spines longer generally, in a short back the opposite - it isn't the same vertebrae crammed in a smaller space, the vertebrae and spines are smaller. When you get abnormalities in either long or short backed vertebrae you will have problems - long spines in a short backed horse can cause KS, equally short spines in a long backed horse can cause ligament strain. It will be the comparative size of the spines that is the problem, not so much the length of the back - there is no evidence that length of back correlates with predisposition to KS.

I did say for a horse with the same amount of bone, the one with the shorter back will be more predisposed to kissing spines.

When I was googling the condition I came across veterinary support for the idea, though no actual research. It just seems a biomechanical no-brainer to me.

Especially as rates of it appear to be rising with the propensity to breed shorter backed horses for their athleticism.

You can see from my horse's back that his problem has nothing to do with the length of the dsps and everything to do with their proximity.


One of a very large number of opinions that sort backs predispose to kissing spines that you can find on Google

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/horse-care/vet-advice/understanding-kissing-spines/

 

[Sussexbythesea]

Ha ha . . . and that's sort of how Kal did actually fall on the road while out hunting . . . muppet horse.

P

Mine spun on the road and fell over with a friend - think there is a bit of a theme here

 

[xgemmax]

Jake is short backed, and I agree they can throw in huge bucks he's also good at spinning!

 

[khalswitz]

I did say for a horse with the same amount of bone, the one with the shorter back will be more predisposed to kissing spines.

When I was googling the condition I came across veterinary support for the idea, though no actual research. It just seems a biomechanical no-brainer to me.

Especially as rates of it appear to be rising with the propensity to breed shorter backed horses for their athleticism.

You can see from my horse's back that his problem has nothing to do with the length of the dsps and everything to do with their proximity.


One of a very large number of opinions that sort backs predispose to kissing spines that you can find on Google

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/horse-care/vet-advice/understanding-kissing-spines/

Well, my my equine orthopaedics texts from vet school tell me otherwise... it is about length of spines not length of back. My list of things from my notes that predispose to KS: over-large vertebral spines, weakening of intervertebral and supraspinous ligaments allowing movement of spines, hollow back carriage which associates with poor fitting tack and longterm muscular back pain/si pain etc.

And the length of back thing was discussed at length, and scientifically it is not accepted as having any correlation to incidence of KS (certainly as of last year when we studied it). Whether being short backed exacerbates or speeds up noticing symptoms I don't know, but in studies of near a thousand cases there was no higher incidence of KS in short backed to long backed horses. Will go and look up the studies we were noted if you are interested.

Now, the debate was that whether KS is more often caused by way of going due to other pains/ill fitting tack etc, and perhaps more so in long backs, so that the figures show no difference when actually abnormal spines are more common in short backs, or whether there is in fact no correlations at all between the two. However claiming that KS is something short backed horses are more prone to is scientific error. So bad move H&H in that article (especially as there are no references I can't even tell you where they got that idea!!)