Short saddle needed for long-backed horse?

Illusion100

Illusion100

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Right, I've been advised by my Trainer that my 15.2 SH is deceptively wide and long in his back.

When he was with them recently he became very unhappy in a 17" which looked a perfect fit, so they jiggled saddles around and found he was content in a 16".

He was jabbed recently so I asked Vet what they thought about his back length and they agreed he was longer than he looks.

Trainer has advised to get him a 16" Balance saddle or I'd probably get away with 16.5" but definitely not 17". Both my current saddles are 17", bummer.

Why would a long backed horse get sore in a 17" but be happy in a 16"? I'm so saddle fitter but I would have thought it would have been the other way round?

Can someone shed some light on this for me? The answer is going to be glaringly obvious, isn't it?! :D
 
TBH, I wouldn't worry about why, unless you think there is a hidden problem. Just listen to the horse and let him wear what he is comfortable with.
 
There are several possibilities, the first and most likely is that he is not long in the back despite appearances you need to look for the last rib to check what length saddle he can get away with, a 16 inch is small for an adult rider, the second is that simply the 17 inch is unsuitable due to tree shape rather than length and that the 16 inch is just a better shape.
I would be very surprised if he cannot have at least a 161/2 inch or even a 17inch if you get the right saddle for him, a good saddle fitter is your best bet.
 
Perhaps it might be best to have a proper saddle fitter out? They know what they're doing and will be able to make sure he's correctly fitted. It may also be useful to have a Physio check his back as a longer saddle may have already caused some sore areas. I had this same problem (I ride in a 16.5" VSD so there is more room for his shoulder) but my horse is short coupled. Good luck 😊
 
I understand why you would be confused, but saddle fit is not dependent on back length, but rather, last rib position. Because often the extra length of back is in the unsupported and therefore weaker part of the back. If you think of the back as a suspension bridge, the longer it is, the weaker it is in the middle. The strongest part of the bridge is nearer the sides. A shorter saddle achieves this objective better than a longer one.
 
be positive said:
There are several possibilities, the first and most likely is that he is not long in the back despite appearances you need to look for the last rib to check what length saddle he can get away with, a 16 inch is small for an adult rider, the second is that simply the 17 inch is unsuitable due to tree shape rather than length and that the 16 inch is just a better shape.
I would be very surprised if he cannot have at least a 161/2 inch or even a 17inch if you get the right saddle for him, a good saddle fitter is your best bet.
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This is a good point. It may just be that the shorter saddle has a better shaped tree for your horse.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
TBH, I wouldn't worry about why, unless you think there is a hidden problem. Just listen to the horse and let him wear what he is comfortable with.
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He was backed in a 17" and was superb about the whole process, so confused about this time about. The Trainer did mention getting him checked over at one stage but then said horse was fine, it's just this time round he did a lot more work with a saddle on and as he's still so babyish he struggled to keep his ribcage/lumbar lifted in the correct position for a 17" but manages fine in a 16". I just found it a bit odd as I assumed a longer saddle would have spread the weight/pressure better than a shorter one?

Also I don't want to buy a 16" saddle for him then to need a 17" as worried 16" saddles aren't very popular and I would struggle to resell?
 
be positive said:
There are several possibilities, the first and most likely is that he is not long in the back despite appearances you need to look for the last rib to check what length saddle he can get away with, a 16 inch is small for an adult rider, the second is that simply the 17 inch is unsuitable due to tree shape rather than length and that the 16 inch is just a better shape.
I would be very surprised if he cannot have at least a 161/2 inch or even a 17inch if you get the right saddle for him, a good saddle fitter is your best bet.
Click to expand...

Personally I don't think he is that long in the back, he's not short backed but doesn't look like a 3 seater either!

Clearly I know nothing about saddles or fitting them as I didn't know 16" would have a different tree shape than its 17" counterpart, I thought it was the same shaped tree but a different length!
 
Has he started trotting yet under saddle? I think I read somewhere he has not yet, he may be a bit sore due to doing more work but not yet able to lift up properly, if he is still only in walk there is little happening to encourage him to do so, I think walking properly is extremely difficult for a youngster and usually find them far happier once they can swing along in trot as they lift up more easily and start to engage.
Ignore my thoughts if he is trotting but if not I would wait until he is before getting a saddle sorted as things can change very quickly once the core engages and the topline comes up.
 
Pookies said:
Perhaps it might be best to have a proper saddle fitter out? They know what they're doing and will be able to make sure he's correctly fitted. It may also be useful to have a Physio check his back as a longer saddle may have already caused some sore areas. I had this same problem (I ride in a 16.5" VSD so there is more room for his shoulder) but my horse is short coupled. Good luck ��
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I had the Vet check him over when he was jabbed and they found no issue to suggest having him checked out. The Trainer specifically advised a Balance saddle for him (not because they are sponsored or anything but because they appreciate that if things aren't 'perfect' for my horse, he's a nightmare so they believe a Balance saddle is right for him). Horse is looking fab and moving really fluidly and evenly as well.

When I said I will get a fitter out they weren't keen, saying often the majority of the fitting involves static examination and that often due to the fact the muscles expand during exercise and need room to develop, often they are fitted with too narrow a tree.

I trust their advice, horse not in work atm and I keep forgetting to call them to find out which model Balance saddle and what to use with it as they said it was too difficult to explain via text, so I imagine this means they have specific suggestions/instructions specific to my horses requirements. They also offered to come out and ensure saddle/padding equipment was right before I got on him, so they obviously care and want things to go right.

When did finding the right saddle become so difficult?! :D
 
Wagtail said:
I understand why you would be confused, but saddle fit is not dependent on back length, but rather, last rib position. Because often the extra length of back is in the unsupported and therefore weaker part of the back. If you think of the back as a suspension bridge, the longer it is, the weaker it is in the middle. The strongest part of the bridge is nearer the sides. A shorter saddle achieves this objective better than a longer one.
Click to expand...

This what Trainer described, that his lumbar was weak so the shorter saddle was better. Clearly I'm just a bit slow on the uptake of figuring out the finer details (practically all details obviously!) of saddle fitting!
 
be positive said:
Has he started trotting yet under saddle? I think I read somewhere he has not yet, he may be a bit sore due to doing more work but not yet able to lift up properly, if he is still only in walk there is little happening to encourage him to do so, I think walking properly is extremely difficult for a youngster and usually find them far happier once they can swing along in trot as they lift up more easily and start to engage.
Ignore my thoughts if he is trotting but if not I would wait until he is before getting a saddle sorted as things can change very quickly once the core engages and the topline comes up.
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He spent a few weeks lunging with saddle on in walk/trot/canter with the odd jump to mix things up for him along with longlining with saddle on round the yard.

Trainer wanted him to be carrying himself well before putting a rider on, they are quite meticulous about producing horses, which is great. They also said not to rush into buying a saddle as he is going to change shape quite a bit in the next month after the work he's done recently with them. Luckily they really like my horse and are keen to get things right for us.
 
Illusion100 said:
He spent a few weeks lunging with saddle on in walk/trot/canter with the odd jump to mix things up for him along with longlining with saddle on round the yard.

Trainer wanted him to be carrying himself well before putting a rider on, they are quite meticulous about producing horses, which is great. They also said not to rush into buying a saddle as he is going to change shape quite a bit in the next month after the work he's done recently with them. Luckily they really like my horse and are keen to get things right for us.
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There is a huge difference between carrying themselves with a saddle but no rider and carrying a rider comfortably however well the groundwork is done so I agree with not rushing to buy a saddle yet, he will still be weak and as long as they have a saddle he can wear while there working you can wait until he is further along, it is important that you can try the saddle as well so you know it fits you both, no good if it fits the horse if the rider struggles to sit comfortably and spends all their time adjusting themselves.
I had this conversation with an osteo last week as she spends half her time fixing horses damaged by ill fitting saddles that fit the horse but not the rider so the damage is caused by the rider not sitting correctly or ones that don't fit the horse and in some cases are totally wrong, like most of us she cannot comprehend how bad some fitters seem to be even missing out the basics but that is another thread.
 
be positive said:
There is a huge difference between carrying themselves with a saddle but no rider and carrying a rider comfortably however well the groundwork is done so I agree with not rushing to buy a saddle yet, he will still be weak and as long as they have a saddle he can wear while there working you can wait until he is further along, it is important that you can try the saddle as well so you know it fits you both, no good if it fits the horse if the rider struggles to sit comfortably and spends all their time adjusting themselves.
I had this conversation with an osteo last week as she spends half her time fixing horses damaged by ill fitting saddles that fit the horse but not the rider so the damage is caused by the rider not sitting correctly or ones that don't fit the horse and in some cases are totally wrong, like most of us she cannot comprehend how bad some fitters seem to be even missing out the basics but that is another thread.
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Oh, I get what you meant now! No I don't thinks he's trotted under saddle yet as he was tricky this time round due to initially being worked in a 17" and getting sore on the ground, so we decided that the goal was just to get him through that and just have a couple of gentle, easy going rides in walk to end things on a good note before giving him a holiday.

They told me they have another really tricky horse that is like mine. They were given it (high percentage of ownership anyway) when it was a backed 4 yr old nightmare and they realised it couldn't be in full work but only worked for a fortnight, then turned away for a while and repeat for a couple of years. It's now out at Intermediate BE within a year of restarting it's career.

I realised I've lied, my Dressage saddle is 16" but will be too narrow but been advised to get a 16" GP/J Balance saddle. Absolutely the saddle needs to fit me too, my pain tolerance is not what it used to be and I can't afford to come off because I'm sitting awkwardly and that is making him sore!

Recently most of the people I've seen do not sit well in their saddles due to it fitting the horse not them and they get frustrated they can't improve their position/riding. Then the horse doesn't carry itself well, then the next thing is the physio is out to the horse and rider also complains of pain!
 
Illusion100 said:
Clearly I know nothing about saddles or fitting them as I didn't know 16" would have a different tree shape than its 17" counterpart, I thought it was the same shaped tree but a different length!
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Different tree shapes are available in all sizes/types of saddle so don't worry.

You've had great advice on here. Get a really well recommended, qualified fitter out and explain what has been said to you. They can assess the horse fully and take it from there.
 
_GG_ said:
Different tree shapes are available in all sizes/types of saddle so don't worry.

You've had great advice on here. Get a really well recommended, qualified fitter out and explain what has been said to you. They can assess the horse fully and take it from there.
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I tracked down a good saddle fitter but as they didn't fit Balance saddles I haven't had them out. I think I might just get them come out anyway to get their opinion on him regarding his length/shape and educate myself a bit more before doing anything else.

That said, a friend came to visit today who hasn't seen him in a few months, said he looks a good bit taller and has definitely grown (he still looks tiny to me!) and thought he was bum high again. Problem is, he can look bum high but he actually isn't, he's built a little downhill and levels up when worked properly to lift his forehand, or yes, he is bum high due to growing. I personally think he's not finished growing yet as even at 5 he's still quite babyish looking.

I think I'll put him back into light work for a few weeks on the ground and then get the saddlers opinion on his fitting requirements at that stage and go from there.
 
Illusion100 said:
I tracked down a good saddle fitter but as they didn't fit Balance saddles I haven't had them out. I think I might just get them come out anyway to get their opinion on him regarding his length/shape and educate myself a bit more before doing anything else.

That said, a friend came to visit today who hasn't seen him in a few months, said he looks a good bit taller and has definitely grown (he still looks tiny to me!) and thought he was bum high again. Problem is, he can look bum high but he actually isn't, he's built a little downhill and levels up when worked properly to lift his forehand, or yes, he is bum high due to growing. I personally think he's not finished growing yet as even at 5 he's still quite babyish looking.

I think I'll put him back into light work for a few weeks on the ground and then get the saddlers opinion on his fitting requirements at that stage and go from there.
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Sounds like a solid plan to me :)
 
Illusion100 said:
I had the Vet check him over when he was jabbed and they found no issue to suggest having him checked out. The Trainer specifically advised a Balance saddle for him (not because they are sponsored or anything but because they appreciate that if things aren't 'perfect' for my horse, he's a nightmare so they believe a Balance saddle is right for him). Horse is looking fab and moving really fluidly and evenly as well.

When I said I will get a fitter out they weren't keen, saying often the majority of the fitting involves static examination and that often due to the fact the muscles expand during exercise and need room to develop, often they are fitted with too narrow a tree.

I trust their advice, horse not in work atm and I keep forgetting to call them to find out which model Balance saddle and what to use with it as they said it was too difficult to explain via text, so I imagine this means they have specific suggestions/instructions specific to my horses requirements. They also offered to come out and ensure saddle/padding equipment was right before I got on him, so they obviously care and want things to go right.

When did finding the right saddle become so difficult?! :D
Click to expand...

Just read through the thread. As other have said you've had some great advice given on here.
Saddle fitting is an art and will probably take trial and error to find one you're both happy with. Especially with a youngster it's very important to get it fitted correctly and you may need to keep getting it re flocked etc or a new saddle every few months. (My 5yr old has been through 5 well fitted saddles in the past 9 months - growth spurts) It's usually not as simple as an inch shorter or a wider fitting.

I disagree with what your vet has said Re saddle fitters. A good saddle fitter is typically far more skilled in this specialist area than a vet. (Yes there are some exceptions and terribly bad trained professionals.) Every saddler I've had out has fitted the saddle stood up, with a rider on and seen being ridden. Master saddlers are a good place to start.

I've not seen any pics of your horse but I think it's wrong to assume that the saddle alone is the sole cause of a horse's way of going and training, especially so early on in its career. It's great they want to establish good groundwork and way of going. I'm amazed that a vet can tell you which exact saddle you need by just examining your horse and not putting one on their back. (If they can do this theyre missing out on a business opportunity) It's nice that both your vet and trainer seem to care a lot but sometimes you need to be careful who to take advice from.

From your posts you sound as if this is all new to you - backing, riding etc (please correct me if not). From my limited experience backing/breaking - 5 years - I've come to realise no horse is the same. Even full brother and sisters. Just because something worked with one horse doesn't mean it will work with yours - by all means try it but don't pin all your hopes on it.

You seem to have a good attitude to the situation and I hope everything works out. Good Luck.
 
PuzzlePiece said:
Just read through the thread. As other have said you've had some great advice given on here.
Saddle fitting is an art and will probably take trial and error to find one you're both happy with. Especially with a youngster it's very important to get it fitted correctly and you may need to keep getting it re flocked etc or a new saddle every few months. (My 5yr old has been through 5 well fitted saddles in the past 9 months - growth spurts) It's usually not as simple as an inch shorter or a wider fitting.

I disagree with what your vet has said Re saddle fitters. A good saddle fitter is typically far more skilled in this specialist area than a vet. (Yes there are some exceptions and terribly bad trained professionals.) Every saddler I've had out has fitted the saddle stood up, with a rider on and seen being ridden. Master saddlers are a good place to start.

I've not seen any pics of your horse but I think it's wrong to assume that the saddle alone is the sole cause of a horse's way of going and training, especially so early on in its career. It's great they want to establish good groundwork and way of going. I'm amazed that a vet can tell you which exact saddle you need by just examining your horse and not putting one on their back. (If they can do this theyre missing out on a business opportunity) It's nice that both your vet and trainer seem to care a lot but sometimes you need to be careful who to take advice from.

From your posts you sound as if this is all new to you - backing, riding etc (please correct me if not). From my limited experience backing/breaking - 5 years - I've come to realise no horse is the same. Even full brother and sisters. Just because something worked with one horse doesn't mean it will work with yours - by all means try it but don't pin all your hopes on it.

You seem to have a good attitude to the situation and I hope everything works out. Good Luck.
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Hi, it was the Trainer not the Vet that was dubious about the accuracy of Saddlers. The reason behind them suggesting a Balance saddle is because they are apparently more lenient to shape change/small growth spurts/muscle development etc than a conventionally fitted saddle and considering my youngster is so particular (when he got just a little sore in the 17" saddle mentioned previously, he started fly bucking and then threw himself on the floor), we obviously don't want to neglect being very precise about what saddle goes on him at this delicate stage of his education.

The only thing the Vet said was that they agreed he was longer in the back than he looks, they gave no saddle fitting advice.

I'm not a Novice but my saddles have fitted every horse I've owned without issue (apart from this one, typically!), so I've never really had to learn much about this side of things.

Again, it's just that this horse is very quirky, so want to get this exactly right for him. :)
 
I've not read all the posts but I'd say that there are other ways to fit a moving back, I fit trees flatter than some other folks, I believe the horse lifts and flattens under the seat and stirrup bars and thats where you need space, the rails of the tree must be flat front to back (try a belly lift and look at the shape your horse ends up at that point) AND side to side. And on a general point there is no problem with fitting a shorter saddle to a longer backed horse, going smaller in the seat, where possible due to rider size, often helps with saddle fitting issues and soreness etc.
 
And just to complicate matters, some horses need a hoop-shaped tree to accommodate a big ribcage behind the shoulders while most are happy with the usual inverted V shape! You seem to be getting good advice from your trainer, I would go with what they recommend. They know your horse, they are training him and they have apparently been successful with tricky horses. Good luck.
 
sbloom said:
I've not read all the posts but I'd say that there are other ways to fit a moving back, I fit trees flatter than some other folks, I believe the horse lifts and flattens under the seat and stirrup bars and thats where you need space, the rails of the tree must be flat front to back (try a belly lift and look at the shape your horse ends up at that point) AND side to side. And on a general point there is no problem with fitting a shorter saddle to a longer backed horse, going smaller in the seat, where possible due to rider size, often helps with saddle fitting issues and soreness etc.
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Thank you for the info! :)
 
planete said:
And just to complicate matters, some horses need a hoop-shaped tree to accommodate a big ribcage behind the shoulders while most are happy with the usual inverted V shape! You seem to be getting good advice from your trainer, I would go with what they recommend. They know your horse, they are training him and they have apparently been successful with tricky horses. Good luck.
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Haha, more things for me to investigate! ;)
 
I find that a lot of fitter who perhaps don't fit a lot of wide horses, see a wide ribcage and just assume "hoop tree". I have seen New Forests and all sorts of "neater" shapes fitted into hoop trees which are usually both too wide in the pommel (and the twist and seat) as well as too curvy. When these saddles go wrong on horses they tend to become unstable and move forwards (witness how many photos you see all over the web of natives etc with saddles up over their shoulders). And in fact there aren't just narrow V shaped trees and wide U shaped trees, they come in the whole range of widths. When we make a saddle in a narrower size than usual it will generally have a narrower head and vice versa, but our trees all have slightly different head widths in a given width fitting, and for wider horses none would be as narrow as might be needed for a narrower fit.
 
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