Should a judge smack a youngsters to get them to go forward?

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horseychick1

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i was just wondering people thoughts here,should a judge like the title says smack a youngsters?? i've check Chapsuk rule book but says nothing in rule book. i was under the understanding that i know a judge is not there to school your horses,but if a horse is naughty(bring it back to owner) or can't get it to canter on,say left rein.give the young horse the benefit of the doubt & try right rein & see if she will,but don't smack it to go forward into canter because they should go off your leg.
she smacked her a few times,but this is this youngsters 2nd time out & they do get tired too.
my youngster does go off your leg & is a fab ride but like i said they get tired & she's a type to try & work riders out,very clever little horse.
what happened if you youngster objected to been smacked & booted her off,that would of been her own fault!!?
 
IMHO you are quite right - the judge is there to assess the horse as it is, not to school it. Perhaps they are so used to schooling their own and other peoples that it came as second nature? Doesn't excuse it though - I wouldn't be very happy if it was one of mine.
 
xloopylozzax said:
Im on the other side of the coin- i wouldnt present an unfit green youngster for a ride judge.
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i understand where your coming from,but the horse has to come out & learn.she had did the novice & was a little unsettled,it was hot & then i put her into another class so see how she would cope,i wasn't riding her because i've got one backside & was on another youngsters.i just need to find the right balance with her because i need to warm her up because she can work herself & i don't want to present her to a judge in this way for the judge to be hurt. but i don't think the judge should of smacked her because if the youngster objected to been smack & judge fell off,who's to blame there then??
 
Still stick by what i said- I personally would have called it a day after one class with a youngster. you pushed it too far, she was as you say tired, unsettled and you plonked another rider on her in an unfamiliar place with unfamiliar horses 2nd time out?? Why test to "see if she will cope"- theres the next show/next season to do that.

you school, get them used to other riders and stuff at home to give them the best chance, entering a class with a ride judge is the final product not a way to get there IMO
Horse should accept the aids and be forwards off the leg, and not react OTT when the aids are backed up with a cane.

you would be to blame, should have public liability insurance etc

I well aware of producing horses for the showring and that horses are unpredictable and will cock it up sometimes, especially babys, so why rush it...
 
Oooh this is really interesting.

I have done ONE showing class ever :D and got placed second to last, when I asked the judge why it was because he didn't go well for her. Which was absolutely true, he didn't. He took the mickey out of her and she wasn't a bad rider but I remember thinking "give him a smack" but she didn't and I concluded she probably thought it would be a bit off to hit a competitor's horse. Oh and mine was most def not a baby at the time!

Also interesting is the comment about the judge not schooling the horse, she couldn't get left canter out of mine (it is a terribly elusive thing I admit :D) but she just kept on and on trying. There was no point as he wasn't going forward properly.

All her feedback was on how he rode, and she told me I needed to "jazz him up a bit", which was fair, but also not really as he was fine for me but he's not daft and isn't going to do it unless you make him!

Really interested to hear more from showing peeps on this topic, I know nowt about it but OP the situation you describe I don't think I'd have really been happy with.
 
when the judge asked her to canter she canter but then judge maybe didn't squeeze enough with her legs so the youngster so she went back to trot & that when the judge smacked her to push on.
she goes great for me & i nearly swapped & i know i have to get the balance right so i do know where your coming from.
 
I don't think anyone should to be blame as such, end of the day a ride judge should be experienced enough to make their own decisions and bare the consequences of their actions should they choose to use the whip for whatever reason....even if they are unseated.

Certainly not owners fault though if the horse unseated them, but if the horse didn't respond to the aids given and the judge felt the horse was not listening, then I can see why a whip will be used in some instances, some of these ride judges don't mess and won’t take any nonsense and in some cases I think that's a good thing, I guess judges are not going to know if a horse is tired or just had enough.

But I can see your point, I may of had to have had a quiet chuckle into my hand should the worse of happened if I had been in your situation (so long as the judge was ok of course!) but that's showing for you, lets face it there has be some drama otherwise all those poor spectators would be bored to tears. :D

Suppose every horse in the ring will always go better for the owner rather than the ride judge but you just have to expect that when doing ridden classes I guess.
 
"she goes great for me"

thats exactly what the ride judge is testing- is it just as effortless as you make it look?

they dont take into account age/experience etc its manners and the way they ride on the day.

some show horses look fantastic on the go round for their usual rider, but for other people are numb, stiff, and not switched onto the aids- purely robotic going through the motions which isnt great.
I've said on here before, a one rider horse is nothing to be proud of (not saying yours is!!) if anyone can get on and make them go aswell as you can then you've done a fantastic job :)

ETA- I have no problem with young horses ridden by ride judges, but only when they are prepared for it. We took a 5 year old mare down to the royal welsh first season out, she got the highest ridden mark in the class, bar the winner, only thing that let her down was her conformation being slightly immature. judge didnt actually want to get off her and rode her round a fair while. mums heart was in her mouth the whole time- longer they are on, more chance for stuff to go wrong!
T
 
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I'll stay out on the owners rights or wrongs in entering the class, however, the vast majority of ride judges only carry a cane don't they, so I am suprised they have something to hit it with. Also, if a horse didn't do what a ride judge asked using subtle aids, I would think the best course of action is just return the horse to the rider and mark down appropriately. There has been enough ride judges injured to know that this is the safest course of action, its no place for schooling.
 
In an ROR class last year the ride judge was very heavy handed and walloped a couple of horses with the stick much to my disgust. He got on my horse, hoiked the curb rein up tight and literally hung on for dear life. He rode all the other 11 horses the same way. If he had hit my horse I would of left the ring and put in an official complaint.

I make sure she is ridden by other people both male and female especially before a show and all the other judges have been lovely and as previously stated they are not there to school my horse.
 
The worst bit about showing is the ride judge for me - I get so nervous! Meg is a good girl, but she doesn't always go off the leg. So many comments back from RJ's saying, 'that was deceptive!'
Don't know whether to laugh or cry at that!!
 
xloopylozzax said:
Still stick by what i said- I personally would have called it a day after one class with a youngster. you pushed it too far, she was as you say tired, unsettled and you plonked another rider on her in an unfamiliar place with unfamiliar horses 2nd time out?? Why test to "see if she will cope"- theres the next show/next season to do that.

you school, get them used to other riders and stuff at home to give them the best chance, entering a class with a ride judge is the final product not a way to get there IMO
Horse should accept the aids and be forwards off the leg, and not react OTT when the aids are backed up with a cane.

you would be to blame, should have public liability insurance etc

I well aware of producing horses for the showring and that horses are unpredictable and will cock it up sometimes, especially babys, so why rush it...
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i didn't plonk another rider on her,it was the same rider that rides her at home & while she's at home i have had quite alot of other riders on her,i've rode her tonite & she has gone really well & i didn't have to smack her to get canter, i used my legs.
its fine at well having going brilliant at home but they also need to go brilliant at a show!
she has got to come out & learn,i'm not asking to be criticised on schooling here,the simple questions was its it right or wrong for a judge to smack a horse to get it to go forward!??
the thing i didn't point out was this judge rode all the rest, & i'll not go in to criticize her riding! she rode my other youngsters & she is very soft mouthed but they judge was pulling on her(my mare didn't like it!),my mare went well/ok for the ride,then there was this other horse in the class which i though this is very nice & went lovely for the rider but as soon as the judge got on the mare was starting to hollow,resist from her hands,chucking its head in the air,reluctant in going forward,slammed the mare into the boards to get her to canter,not really very nice to watch & you will never believe that this went top,when my youngster went better.
but is that showing for you,marks were altered & no initials sign by judge or steward & clearly says in rule book THERE MUST DEFINITLY BE NO CHANGES MADE TO ANY MARKS ALLOCATED TO ANY EXHIBIT.
a rider can hide a multitude of sins!!! untill a judge rides.
 
Was this an affiliated show? Normally ride judges are assessed before they can become a ride judge so I would have thought they would be good riders.

I would have thought it would be unusual for a ride judge to smack a horse as they won't know how it is going to react and don't want to get bucked off. They may not necessarily know your horse is youngster if you have not told them as novice does not always mean young it could just mean that a horse has come to showing later on in life or from another discipline.

I do agree that if you are showing in classes that require a ride judge then your horse should at the very least go forward from the leg easily and stop easily so that anyone can ride them without a problem and be used to all sorts of riders before being put on them before the class, otherwise it is not fair on the horse as it taking into a class when it is not fit enough to do it.
 
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Why's the point in a ride judge using a whip? If a horse won't go off the leg then it should be marked down accordingly and feedback should be given to the owner so they can work on it.

If a judge hit my horse I'm afraid to say that I would be indignant enough to put a stop to what they were doing and withdraw my horse from the competition. And to hell with what people thought of me!
 
I am constantly amazed at the way people react to judges. The most they claim are their expenses, they spend hours driving round the country, so that people can show their horses, for little thanks and reading on here, a load of aggro. They are given 'tired' horses to ride, on occasions badly schooled, nappy creatures and IT IS ALL THEIR FAULT if the horse does not go well, doesn't win when the owner thinks it should etc. etc. As I said to someone last year, if people are so sure that their horse is the best, go and buy it a red rosette and avoid having other people disagree with you
 
YorksG said:
I am constantly amazed at the way people react to judges. The most they claim are their expenses, they spend hours driving round the country, so that people can show their horses, for little thanks and reading on here, a load of aggro. They are given 'tired' horses to ride, on occasions badly schooled, nappy creatures and IT IS ALL THEIR FAULT if the horse does not go well, doesn't win when the owner thinks it should etc. etc. As I said to someone last year, if people are so sure that their horse is the best, go and buy it a red rosette and avoid having other people disagree with you
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:D :D
 
But they aren't doing their job properly if they're not assessing a horse as it's presented to them. What is using a whip going to achieve? Surely the same judgement as though they hadn't?
 
A job is usually defined as being paid employment, these judges are ALL volunteers FGS, doing their best in often difficulkt circumstances. Yes if the horse will not canter, I would simply return it to the owner and ask them to leave the ring, judges are often kinder and try and give the horse another chance. The only thing judges need to remember is that whatever they do, some of those who do not win will consider that the judge is a fool who knows nothing.
 
I can't really see why you are upset, you should have presented your youngster fit enough for the class or if you felt it was tired, withdrawn it.
The whole point of producing a show horse is it should be well trained enough to go from a squeeze, if you were training it at home and it didn't canter when asked, what do you do, kick harder? !! In your shoes I would be grateful the judge insisted on it going forward , far better to get that than leave the ring having discovered if it didn't want to canter, it didn't have to..
Sorry , as they said above, it's not enough that the horse goes great for you, a properly schooled one goes great for everyone....
 
henryhorn said:
I can't really see why you are upset, you should have presented your youngster fit enough for the class or if you felt it was tired, withdrawn it.
The whole point of producing a show horse is it should be well trained enough to go from a squeeze, if you were training it at home and it didn't canter when asked, what do you do, kick harder? !! In your shoes I would be grateful the judge insisted on it going forward , far better to get that than leave the ring having discovered if it didn't want to canter, it didn't have to..
Sorry , as they said above, it's not enough that the horse goes great for you, a properly schooled one goes great for everyone....
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i'm sorry henryhorn i'm not upset i'm just asking the question!! & know at home i don't kick harder because she goes from your leg.
i didn't realise the questions was so hard,because if i was riding a strange horse for the 1st time i would be weary to use a stick just incase the unfortunate happened!!
 
sally2008 said:
IMHO you are quite right - the judge is there to assess the horse as it is, not to school it. Perhaps they are so used to schooling their own and other peoples that it came as second nature? Doesn't excuse it though - I wouldn't be very happy if it was one of mine.
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Agreed. Youngsters need to get out and learn at some point and not everything always goes to plan, I wouldn't be happy at all and would maybe mention it to someone who organised the show?
 
I dont realy understand what having judges ride a horse proves ????? maybe that your horse would be a good riding school horse that anyone can ride them ....not much else as the judge has seen how it goes for the real rider???
 
alligator40 said:
Very well said.
I'm sick to death of going out and encountering owners with unruly horses...

As for whose "fault" is it, well yours of course!
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sorry to inform you she is not a unruly horse,why can people not just stick to the original question? i didn't realise there are so many perfect people out there!!
i don't bother getting involved in other people's debates etc etc because everybody have different points of views.
i would of said if a horse does go for the judge,give the horse the benefit doubt & try other rein & if still no success bring it back to the owner/rider & give it a low mark!
but don't smack it,i've never seen a judge in my born days around county shows or local shows smack a horse!
i wish i never bothered saying(i normally just sit on the fence0maybe best way as i know nothing!!lol),because people are not sticking to the question,now realising the question is too hard for people & quite quick to chastise.
 
perfect11s said:
I dont realy understand what having judges ride a horse proves ????? maybe that your horse would be a good riding school horse that anyone can ride them ....not much else as the judge has seen how it goes for the real rider???
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a rider hides a multitude or sins,like i said earlier if you read,the judge actually liked the horse,sorry not your school riding pony either & the horse went good for the rider.
again the question!!
 
moveon said:
Agreed. Youngsters need to get out and learn at some point and not everything always goes to plan, I wouldn't be happy at all and would maybe mention it to someone who organised the show?
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thank you,well said. how do youngsters learn at home the showing environment,well they won't because they don't have the showing environment at home.
i did say to the organisers or maybe i should of spoken to chaps instead of asking people's views of smacking a horse in the ring by a judge.
when people are not sticking to the question.
 
horseychick1 said:
a rider hides a multitude or sins,like i said earlier if you read,the judge actually liked the horse,sorry not your school riding pony either & the horse went good for the rider.
again the question!!
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Ok then yes they should... but only once they have applied the other aids and not got the desired response ...is that the right answer???
 
YorksG said:
I am constantly amazed at the way people react to judges. The most they claim are their expenses, they spend hours driving round the country, so that people can show their horses, for little thanks and reading on here, a load of aggro. They are given 'tired' horses to ride, on occasions badly schooled, nappy creatures and IT IS ALL THEIR FAULT if the horse does not go well, doesn't win when the owner thinks it should etc. etc. As I said to someone last year, if people are so sure that their horse is the best, go and buy it a red rosette and avoid having other people disagree with you
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if judges don't want to judge they wouldn't but if they happy enough to do it,they do it & do get paid & well fed/watered & most are happy if they are looked after.
& i didn't think for one minute that i had the red rosette in my head for this youngster,i was getting her out to learn & need to get her balance right,if i don't do that how am i going to know.
this thread is leading to more discussions & again getting away from the original question.
 
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