Should a Stallion cover every year?

[BlackWhite381]

Just looking for opinions. Do you think it is acceptable to keep a stallion for covering purposes even if he doesn't cover mares every year, or would there be a minimum number of mares he would need to cover each year? Thanks

 

[cruiseline]

Some stallions are restricted on how many mares they can cover each year by the society, there is also a similar regulation on TB's if I recall.

on the other hand

I have an 18 year old stallion that has NEVER covered a mare or been used for breeding in any way

 

[BlackWhite381]

Thanks for your reply

 

[Enfys]

Yes.

 

[Roasted Chestnuts]

The way I look at it is, would a stallion cover every year by choice if he werent a domesticated beast? Hell yes he would, natural order of things, same with mares having foals yearly. In the wild some years they are dry and maybe they will have some year after year

 

[ribbons]

I do struggle to understand the reason for keeping a stallion that never covers or covers once or twice in his life.
I know a couple of people with boys like this, and always feel their life would be much nicer gelded and doing something, or at least spending time turned out with other horses.

Maybe someone here will explain the advantages (to the horse) of keeping a non breeding stallion.

 

[BlackWhite381]

Thanks guys.
We do have stallions that cover, but are looking to reduce the number of our own mares and just stand the stallions at stud, but obviously with times being hard there are no guarantees of outside mares! I am wrestling between head and heart, head says reduce number of mares, heart says do I want my stallion with a reduced number of/ possibly no mares some years.

 

[cruiseline]

I do struggle to understand the reason for keeping a stallion that never covers or covers once or twice in his life.
I know a couple of people with boys like this, and always feel their life would be much nicer gelded and doing something, or at least spending time turned out with other horses.

Maybe someone here will explain the advantages (to the horse) of keeping a non breeding stallion.

My 18 year old graded stallion is a competitive dressage horse. I purchased him when he was 9 with no intention of ever using him for breeding. I made the decision not to have him castrated, as the risk of something going wrong, especially at his age, was (for me) too high a price to pay and with his superb temperament, it was not an issue to leave him entire. He leads a perfectly normal life, is stabled next to other horses (including mares) and is able to make physical contact with others through the bars in his stable. I am always conscious and keep in the back of my mind that he is a stallion, but apart from that his routine is exactly the same as any of my other horses. NONE of my horses get turned out with others, as a set of shoes on and high spirited, fresh horse turned out with another high spirited fresh horse, is an accident waiting to happen, so my philosophy is, prevention is better than cure.

My breeding stallion is also kept in exactly the same environment and routine, stallions should not be dangerous hormonal beasts that only think about one thing and one thing only! If brought up correctly with kindness, understanding, boundaries, respect and discipline they should be like any other member of the team.

I however, would NEVER advise the inexperienced horse owner to take on a colt or stallion, as stallions can be strong (even the small ones), opinionated (especially in spring) and very clever, unless they are with knowledgable people, they can if allowed, walk all over you. There are also precautions that need to be considered on a daily basis and rules that need to be put in place, so that both you and your horse are not only safe, but also happy day to day.

 

[ribbons]

Understand your reasons cruiseline. But they are all for your advantage, none for the stallion.
A stallion produces hormones for breeding, his instinct is to reproduce. However well mannered he is, I personally don't think it's fair to him. But then i feel horses are herd animals and to never be at liberty to interact with another must be horrid for any horse. Just my opinion.

 

[koeffee]

i have a stallion who has never covered until i got him that is, he is 13 now and a competition horse. i have four boys and yes they all will cover some mares each year but one may not cover any next year, but they interact and have a friend to play with, and 2 of the boys fancy each other!!

 

[Spring Feather]

A stallion produces hormones for breeding, his instinct is to reproduce.

... you could say the same for mares. Their instinct is also to reproduce but the vast majority of mares are not bred either.

 

[ribbons]

Absolutely spring feather, but the life of a mare is very different to that of a stallion, whether breeding or not. There is not much advantage to most mares to have a hysterectomy if she is not required to breed (in fact more risk than advantage) whereas a gelded male can live a rich social life. Unless of course it's owner keeps all horses separate with no physical contact in which case you could say It makes no difference. Except perhaps the frustration suffered by the stallion smelling mares and never allowed to follow instinct, regardless of whether that frustration is displayed quietly or explosively. Without doubt some mares in season appear to actively require the chance to breed but most exhibit no such desire.
Anyway, all just a matter of opinion I suppose, as no equine yet, has been able to tell us how they feel, and most people are not capable of gauging there horses true level of well being.

 

[angrovestud]

We have our homebred licensed stallion at home he is out in his own paddock and can see our two broodmares and a foal and yearling by him he is very happy, we took the decision not to breed any foals to sell, and we shall race the two we have bred, hes a happy boy and you wouldnt know he was a stallion until one of the mares comes in to season and then he only stands at the fence for a day

 

[Spring Feather]

My stallions (now gelded) live with mares so they were able to interact and have a proper social structure. That was my preference and it worked for the breed I bred at the time (AQHA & APHA) as most AQHA stallions here pasture breed anyway (or at least do live cover in hand). I guess my set up is very different compared to those who have seriously expensive competition stallions who wouldn't be covering live anyway.

 

[cruiseline]

Understand your reasons cruiseline. But they are all for your advantage, none for the stallion.
A stallion produces hormones for breeding, his instinct is to reproduce. However well mannered he is, I personally don't think it's fair to him. But then i feel horses are herd animals and to never be at liberty to interact with another must be horrid for any horse. Just my opinion.

That is quite a sweeping statement to make ribbons! Horses don't necessarily have to be at liberty out in a paddock to interact with others of their species. Stallions are not just a mass of hormones ready to pounce on the next passing mare and if you truly believe they are, then my only conclusion is that you have either never met one, or the ones you have met have been the worst possible kind and should have their balls chopped off!!

Do you apply the same philosophy to other species of the male variety in that they all have balls therefore no brains?

 

[JandP]

Do you apply the same philosophy to other species of the male variety in that they all have balls therefore no brains?

Arguably true in certain cases......

 

[Clodagh]

I think mares do want to breed every year. Think of all the hormonal mares posts every year, it is because their hormones are telling them they should be getting pregnant. It must be a stronger drive for a stallion? I'm not saying they are thick as they have balls but instinct and hormones are a strong drive.

I dislike individual turnout and stabling as I think it is totally unnatual for the horse, although it makes us humans happy. Very sad that a horse worth money can't behave normally.
(Not aimed at you, CL, I realise thousands of stallions, mares and geldings don't get any fun time as they are deemed too valuable to risk it.)

 

[angrovestud]

My Stallion hated a young colt turned out next to him you have to remember in the wild a stallion will not be allowed near new mums as lead mares send them packing with a sharp reminder whos in charge! my stallion would not give a hoot unless he smells a mare in season then and only then does he give a stuff other wise he is to busy eating, I have run stallions out with mares and I have taken them out to cover in hand and I have worked with stallion kept in stallion yards on there own I think unless you own a stallion and you have to have it fit round you to a great extent other wise they would be all wild

 

[koeffee]

I have to say not all boy are hormonal fools!!! took one of mine 20 mins to decide to cover a mare today, more interested in the green grass under foot!!

 

[Rollin]

I think mares do want to breed every year. Think of all the hormonal mares posts every year, it is because their hormones are telling them they should be getting pregnant. It must be a stronger drive for a stallion? I'm not saying they are thick as they have balls but instinct and hormones are a strong drive.

I dislike individual turnout and stabling as I think it is totally unnatual for the horse, although it makes us humans happy. Very sad that a horse worth money can't behave normally.
(Not aimed at you, CL, I realise thousands of stallions, mares and geldings don't get any fun time as they are deemed too valuable to risk it.)

My Cleveland mare who foaled in march has only come into season two weeks ago. When she lost a foal two years ago she did not come back into season all summer.

Her 'mate' my stallion cannot run with her as we don't want her foaling every year anyway but he is beside her and my husband saw him licking the foal over the fence this afternoon.

 

[HBM1]

My boy, who is only 4 next month, but certainly this year realising he has testosterone, is stabled alongside geldings (he was with all my mares until this week when one flirty girty wouldn't leave him alone and he was practically whistling away in his stable trying to avoid eye contact bless him) - he nuzzles with them through the bars and also can stick his head over his door and interact as much as the geldings.

He is a very happy boy, when out in his paddock he has other horses all around him that he can yack to, but spends his time grazing. I see this as no different to the zillions of horses I see - geldings and mares - who are kept on individual turnout and not allowed to interact at all with other horses...or worst still, horses who are kept as solitary animals. In fact, I know my horse is a very happy boy. If I ever for one minute thought he was miserable (and this would show in his demeanour), I would geld him, no questions..but he isn't. I actually think a lot of stallions are more people oriented and would miss that direct interaction far more than that with other horses.

 

[ribbons]

Cruiseline, the statement that I've either never met a stallion or only the worst kind is amusing in the extreme.
I'll leave you to your obvious huge experience of stallions.

 

[adamntitch]

we have 2 stallions here and both are stabled next to mares and foals both dont bother and have diffrent bridles for covering so no when its play time and fun time so to speak you would never no one of them was a stallion unless you seen his balls lol one has covered mares before coming here the other has covered mares most years

i fine the mares more difficult than the stallions to deal with to be honist

 

[meandmyself]

My 18 year old graded stallion is a competitive dressage horse. I purchased him when he was 9 with no intention of ever using him for breeding. I made the decision not to have him castrated, as the risk of something going wrong, especially at his age, was (for me) too high a price to pay and with his superb temperament, it was not an issue to leave him entire. He leads a perfectly normal life, is stabled next to other horses (including mares) and is able to make physical contact with others through the bars in his stable. I am always conscious and keep in the back of my mind that he is a stallion, but apart from that his routine is exactly the same as any of my other horses. NONE of my horses get turned out with others, as a set of shoes on and high spirited, fresh horse turned out with another high spirited fresh horse, is an accident waiting to happen, so my philosophy is, prevention is better than cure.

My breeding stallion is also kept in exactly the same environment and routine, stallions should not be dangerous hormonal beasts that only think about one thing and one thing only! If brought up correctly with kindness, understanding, boundaries, respect and discipline they should be like any other member of the team.

I however, would NEVER advise the inexperienced horse owner to take on a colt or stallion, as stallions can be strong (even the small ones), opinionated (especially in spring) and very clever, unless they are with knowledgable people, they can if allowed, walk all over you. There are also precautions that need to be considered on a daily basis and rules that need to be put in place, so that both you and your horse are not only safe, but also happy day to day.

I think it's sad that your horses never get turned out together.

 

[ribbons]

I would just point out a few things.

The op asked about horses being kept entire and not being used for covering, not a stallion who was regularly bred from.
Obviously a stallion can't be kept exactly the same as a gelding or mare. His life has to
be more restricted to a greater or lesser degree. This is a sacrifice we must have him to make in order to be a covering stallion. I personally find it unacceptable to impose those restrictions on a horse unnecessarily, although I concede if all horses are turned out on an individual pocket handkerchief he has no worse a lifestyle than if gelded. They will all suffer in a mental and emotional way.

I think all male pets and livestock not used for breeding should be gelded/castrated/neutered. Be that cats, dogs, horses, pigs, cattle etc. Their life would be happier without the ever present sexually dominated instincts being constantly repressed. Even an animal who is well behaved will be struggling with those instincts.
Someone mentioned horses in the wild. I rarely compare the difference of domestic horses and wild ones as its not often relevant re rugs, feed, hoof care etc. we change their way of life and remove the natural shelter, terrain and food sources etc so must replace with something else. In the same way we have removed the natural way of ensuring a stallion will always cover mares, or die trying. He will continually challenge a dominant stallion until he wins the right or is killed. He takes that risk because breeding instinct will override every other thought. Not a behaviour pattern displayed by many mares. Self preservation usually takes precedence over all.

All the above comments are simply my opinion.

I would very much like to hear of any advantage TO THE HORSE not the owner of keeping a non covering stallion. I don't mean a horse having a year or two without mares. I mean a stallion who lives a whole life without ever covering.

And finally, sweeping statements when you have no idea who you are talking to. Something that happens regularly on this forum and often makes me laugh.
On this occasion, the suggestion that I'd never met a stallion or only poor ones had me rolling.
I have a 'wee' bit of experience with stallions, kept in various routines but all were used as stallions, and many were at the very top of their sport.

As I said, opinions expressed were just that. My opinions. But they are based on a life time of stallion handling.

Just one more thought. Accidents happen. BOGOF ???!!!!!!

 

[cruiseline]

Ribbons, My comment was not intended to insult you and if it came across as that I do apologise. However we might have to agree to disagree. You state that you don't compare domestic horses with those in the wild, but that is actually what you are doing. You are right, stallions in the wild have nothing better to do with their day other than look after their band of mares and that usually means fighting for them against wondering nomads. Most domesticated stallions have a day job, are disciplined and dare I say educated. They are secure in their surroundings and the flight or fight instinct is somewhat subdued.

I truly think that my stallion has benefited from not having to go through a potentially dangerous operation when he was 10 years old, his life is no different on a day to day basis than any of the mares or gelding I have as competition horses in full work.

Meandmyself :

When they are fit, in full work and especially with hind shoes on it is just too risky to put them together. When they go out, they are in adjacent paddocks and can interact with each other from different sides of the fence. I have seen the most horrendous paddock accidents due to high spirits and hind shoes, resulting in not only the loss of a competitive career, but also the loss of a life. So for me the risk is just too high. If they are being turned away for any length of time, they have their shoes removed and are turned out with a companion.

 

[amy_b]

Sorry haven't read all of the replies but Im sure that in the wild stallions live a solitary life until the breeding season when they find a herd of mares then when he has done his job the matriarch kicks him back out on his bum.
(Happy to be corrected but this is what I was taught at uni) also a weedy one would probably never cover a mare because he will always be chased off by a bigger stronger stallion
Therefore IMO a stallion should be able to live a happy existence never covering a mare. I'm not so sure about a stallion that HAS covered mares, to then not be allowed whilst still in his prime....but I suppose stallions must go through redundancy programmes all of the time when they are no longer fertile...?
Personally not a problem I have to worry about!!

 

[fburton]

You are right, stallions in the wild have nothing better to do with their day other than look after their band of mares and that usually means fighting for them against wondering nomads. Most domesticated stallions have a day job, are disciplined and dare I say educated. They are secure in their surroundings and the flight or fight instinct is somewhat subdued.

Most feral stallions live in bachelor bands most of their lives; it's only a minority that challenge or fight rival stallions, get to look after a harem and breed mares.

It is known from work by Dr Sue McDonnell and others that domestic stallions kept in conditions more closely resembling those in bachelor bands (i.e. away from mares and with or in proximity to other males) have an altered hormone profile, tend to 'switch off' behaviours associated with breeding, and generally chill out to an extent. They still have testosterone, of course, and can engage in aggressive-looking playfighting, but they do not have the same drive as a harem stallion.

What amy_b wrote is correct to the extent that stallions naturally adapt to a life of not breeding, although as a rule they aren't solitary either because they have their boy bands.

So maybe we shouldn't feel so bad about keeping stallions entire as long as they also have company. In practice, though, gelding is a simple solution that allows male horses to have a social life and reduces the chances of injury due to hormone-fuelled disputes or roughhousing.