DarkHorseB
Well-Known Member
When saw you were in Scotland was worried it was one I may possibly get to!! But as have no intentions to go to Ireland am safe 
should affiliated competition be so accessible?
- Thread starter diggerbez
- Start date
3DE
Well-Known Member
When saw you were in Scotland was worried it was one I may possibly get to!! But as have no intentions to go to Ireland am safe
No, you're safe! My friend goes all over the place and I used to tag along as photographer when I lived in Cheshire. 2 years in Scotland now - not the best for ODE
diggerbez
Well-Known Member
oooh you a good photographer!
am not denying that its a big fence but its definitely one of those which is a 'rider frightener'- as is the bridge at bradwall and the one at eland as they are SO much bigger on the landing side than the take off- it kind of proves my point in the thread really (and yours in posting the pic)- this would scare a lot of people who otherwise would consider themselves 'competant' at 1m level- there IS a difference at BE!dieseldog
Well-Known Member
Does it really matter if there is a lower level? You don't need to enter the classes, or even talk to the competitors if you feel that there are devaluing your sport.
How are they devaluing your sport? Novice and Foxhunter still exists. If you think that is the point at which affiliated should start then only enter those classes.
Bad riders, nervous riders, unprepared riders are all going to ride the same be it at unaffiliated or affiliated, at least at affiliated they are contributing to the sport you have chosen with their membership and entry fees.
Do people think that if you got rid of the lower levels that the number of people of competing at affiliated would rise? That the number of events would also increase as you wouldn't have to put on classes for the lower people.
I've been jumping BS for about 10 years and the introduction of Intro shows has not had an adverse affect on jumping in this area - maybe it has in yours and that why people don't like the lower level shows?
If BE, BS, BD all stopped doing lower level events and then everyone had to flood back into the unaffiliated market how do you think those riders are going to react to competing against 'affiliated' riders, everyone a pothunter I guess
How are they devaluing your sport? Novice and Foxhunter still exists. If you think that is the point at which affiliated should start then only enter those classes.
Bad riders, nervous riders, unprepared riders are all going to ride the same be it at unaffiliated or affiliated, at least at affiliated they are contributing to the sport you have chosen with their membership and entry fees.
Do people think that if you got rid of the lower levels that the number of people of competing at affiliated would rise? That the number of events would also increase as you wouldn't have to put on classes for the lower people.
I've been jumping BS for about 10 years and the introduction of Intro shows has not had an adverse affect on jumping in this area - maybe it has in yours and that why people don't like the lower level shows?
If BE, BS, BD all stopped doing lower level events and then everyone had to flood back into the unaffiliated market how do you think those riders are going to react to competing against 'affiliated' riders, everyone a pothunter I guess
diggerbez
Well-Known Member
3DE
Well-Known Member
Santa_Claus
Well-Known Member
TheoryX1
Well-Known Member
Interesting thread and I would question why the OP feels its so accessible. In my neck of the woods, if you compete at affiliated whatever you do get looked up to slightly, and I do live in a fairly big connurbation so to speak and not out in the back of beyond. Hardly anybody in our PC competes at affiliated comps its only probably my daughter, and about two others, it seen as a pretty distant goal to most riders and their parents - and some of them ride well enough to do well at whatever discipline they compete at. We are a reasonable size PC as well. I think the cost element does have something to do with it as well.
However, I have to be honest, I wont let Mini TX do anything unaffiliated now, the only exception to that is PC comps, which tend to be well organised and safety conscious. This is mainly due to her having a horrible accident at an unaffiliated event which caused broken bones and has resulted in us taking legal action against the organiser - there were no first aiders present and the course was to say the least, dangerous. I cannot discuss this further as the legal action is still pending and it will now go to court.
I do agree you see some pretty horrible riding at affiliated, but you see it at unaffiliated and PC events as well. I'm not really talking BD as if you mess up there you just get bad marks and there is no danger element involved. Am mainly talking eventing, I dont claim to be an expert, but even I am shocked sometimes. I suppose that brings into it a whole new argument, which I am not here to do.
However, I have to be honest, I wont let Mini TX do anything unaffiliated now, the only exception to that is PC comps, which tend to be well organised and safety conscious. This is mainly due to her having a horrible accident at an unaffiliated event which caused broken bones and has resulted in us taking legal action against the organiser - there were no first aiders present and the course was to say the least, dangerous. I cannot discuss this further as the legal action is still pending and it will now go to court.
I do agree you see some pretty horrible riding at affiliated, but you see it at unaffiliated and PC events as well. I'm not really talking BD as if you mess up there you just get bad marks and there is no danger element involved. Am mainly talking eventing, I dont claim to be an expert, but even I am shocked sometimes. I suppose that brings into it a whole new argument, which I am not here to do.
Maesfen
Extremely Old Nag!
Years ago, only the very best went affiliated, they had earnt the right to be there (at the standards at the time) and affiliation was to be strived for, to be looked up to; now it seems to be too easy to be affiliated with little structure to limit an inexperienced rider from being a danger to their horse and everyone else; I think that should be stopped, it shouldn't be a free for all, people should earn the right to be at the level they're competing at.
I take on board the inconsistencies and safety aspects of some unaffiliated competitions so in light of that, from an onlooker's POV at BE, I think you should have to have a minimum of something like 5 - 10 completions at a lower level before you are able to go up a level, even from B80 to B90, with perhaps double clears being the criteria to go on when you get to BE100 and every grade after that. That should be as a combination only too, not a total on different horses so that each combination is learning the trade together. If someone buys a horse above the grade they are in then horse should be downgraded again to the rider's level to reach the qualification which should be simple enough as it's a level it's already competed at as long as the rider is good enough.
The main thing is it should be as safe as is possible and anything to cut down on unnecessary accidents because people have overestimated their abilities should be avoided. I don't see a reason why that sort of qualification shouldn't be applied at the lower levels of BS too although perhaps novice riders aren't such a liability in that.
Just my twopenneth and for all I know, some of these systems might already be in place.
I take on board the inconsistencies and safety aspects of some unaffiliated competitions so in light of that, from an onlooker's POV at BE, I think you should have to have a minimum of something like 5 - 10 completions at a lower level before you are able to go up a level, even from B80 to B90, with perhaps double clears being the criteria to go on when you get to BE100 and every grade after that. That should be as a combination only too, not a total on different horses so that each combination is learning the trade together. If someone buys a horse above the grade they are in then horse should be downgraded again to the rider's level to reach the qualification which should be simple enough as it's a level it's already competed at as long as the rider is good enough.
The main thing is it should be as safe as is possible and anything to cut down on unnecessary accidents because people have overestimated their abilities should be avoided. I don't see a reason why that sort of qualification shouldn't be applied at the lower levels of BS too although perhaps novice riders aren't such a liability in that.
Just my twopenneth and for all I know, some of these systems might already be in place.
X
xspiralx
Guest
The other factor to consider I suppose is the fact that to many people, unaffiliated competition is entirely disregarded - particularly when it comes to selling horses.
You might have a horse that will happily jump round an unaff 3'6 sj or xc course with room to spare, but god forbid you try and market that horse as a showjumper or eventer if it hasn't done anything affiliated. Even if its just an intro or a couple of BNs, the minute you get some kind of affiliated record on a horse the asking price usually seems to double.
I bet there are many people who'd be very happy never to affiliate if there were lots of really good unaff competitions up to about 3ft6, and built to a standard that people would recognise as just as worthy as bottom level affiliated class.
You might have a horse that will happily jump round an unaff 3'6 sj or xc course with room to spare, but god forbid you try and market that horse as a showjumper or eventer if it hasn't done anything affiliated. Even if its just an intro or a couple of BNs, the minute you get some kind of affiliated record on a horse the asking price usually seems to double.
I bet there are many people who'd be very happy never to affiliate if there were lots of really good unaff competitions up to about 3ft6, and built to a standard that people would recognise as just as worthy as bottom level affiliated class.
MagicMelon
Well-Known Member
I personally don't like the new lower levels of affiliated competition (speaking BE & BSJA, I've never done BD so know nothing about it!). I have always thought of affiliated as being the next stage after RC / PC / unaffiliated level. I don't think you should be able to do BSJA at 70cm... I just think that's what unaffiliated is for! Kids should certainly grow up doing PC, you get a lot of instruction in PC which is what kids should be getting. Affiliated IMO is getting a bit more 'serious' so to speak. Its a level that should be aimed for and worked towards, not seen as a starting level. Yes, BE & BSJA courses are built far better than unaffiliated ones usually, but dodgily built courses teach you a lot!
I personally find BE and BSJA way too expensive just to join unless I think I'll do ok at it. I make sure my horse is established at unaffiliated level first - ie. my current horse I began BSJA when he was consistenly jumping unaffiliated 1.05's clear (then I started BSJA at British Novice), I joined him BE when he was easily popping round unaffiliated 3'6 classes (and started at BE intro). Then I find it makes you more than prepared for affiliating as their classes are much more up to height etc. than unaffil.
I personally find BE and BSJA way too expensive just to join unless I think I'll do ok at it. I make sure my horse is established at unaffiliated level first - ie. my current horse I began BSJA when he was consistenly jumping unaffiliated 1.05's clear (then I started BSJA at British Novice), I joined him BE when he was easily popping round unaffiliated 3'6 classes (and started at BE intro). Then I find it makes you more than prepared for affiliating as their classes are much more up to height etc. than unaffil.
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Leg_end
Well-Known Member
Its a really difficult one and I see two sides to the story. The first is the lack of unaffiliated, decent courses around. I'm in a very horsey area and have lots of DR and SJ shows so my boy will learn his trade unaffiliated because we can. However, these shows only ever go up to 3' and very often the smaller classes have just had jumps plopped in with no set striding or impossible lines. One example I'm thinking was a 2'9 course I was riding my baby round that had a double a stride off the corner of the arena, fine for nippy ponies but not horses. I did actually ask the course builder to change the set up and they did 
Plus I know the youngster friendly venues and will only vist those in future.
XC however is an entirely different matter. We are close to Tweseldown which offers PC/RC and unaffiliated but there aren't many venues that offer a good, confidence building run for a youngster so I would choose to do a BE80 over an intro level ODE as I know what the standards will be and it is likely to be a good, educational experience. But if we had a decent choice here then I would definately choose unaffiliated until I wanted to go PN/N.
But sitting in the corner against... I think the introduction of smaller classes in BE has meant that there aren't as many unaffiliated ODEs around of a decent standard plus it has made the intro/PN classes far more technical as they are being used as mini badminton's as people want to stay at that level rather than as a training ground for young horses and riders that want to move up the grades. IMO the introduction of too many skinnies and technical fences is not what a baby needs on their first few attempts.
I will probably affiliate at the second half of next season just to get a few good runs at some lovely venues under our belts.
Plus I know the youngster friendly venues and will only vist those in future.XC however is an entirely different matter. We are close to Tweseldown which offers PC/RC and unaffiliated but there aren't many venues that offer a good, confidence building run for a youngster so I would choose to do a BE80 over an intro level ODE as I know what the standards will be and it is likely to be a good, educational experience. But if we had a decent choice here then I would definately choose unaffiliated until I wanted to go PN/N.
But sitting in the corner against... I think the introduction of smaller classes in BE has meant that there aren't as many unaffiliated ODEs around of a decent standard plus it has made the intro/PN classes far more technical as they are being used as mini badminton's as people want to stay at that level rather than as a training ground for young horses and riders that want to move up the grades. IMO the introduction of too many skinnies and technical fences is not what a baby needs on their first few attempts.
I will probably affiliate at the second half of next season just to get a few good runs at some lovely venues under our belts.
only_me
Well-Known Member
BD - surely the less good riders simply won't get placed? If they do then obviously they are good enough
BSJA - hmmm kinda on the fence with this one lol
BE - Safety, safety, safety. Some see BE100 and think 'it's only a meter, it's only prenovice'
This is a pre-novice fence, also the easy option! I think that you shouldn't be able to jump fences like this on a day ticketOh and that horse is 17h3 to give you an idea of scale...
Actually that is Necarne in Northern Ireland - that is the 2* fence - the 1* fence is beside it - it is bloody huge but most definately not a PN fence!!
Necarne also doesnt do a normal ode; it is only used (was only used) for FEI
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diggerbez
Well-Known Member
where i am TX it is really accessible (aside from the cost that is
) and loads of people think nothing of going and having a bash at a BE90 even though they have never been XC schooling or whatever i do quite a lot of camps and clinics and there will be people on them crapping themselves about a log and then in the next breath they'll say that they are entered for a BE90 the following weekend mental! i think some really good points being made about the quality (or lack of
) of unaffiliated comps- again esp ODE- TBH its why my youngster did 2x unafils (both round a BE course i might add!) before going BE- but what did people do in the days before BE80/ BE90 etc etc- surely they would have HAD to go unafilliated? were there just better standards of unaffiliated comps then or something? i have to say i really wouldn't pay (personally) to affiliate to any of the societies if i wasn't going to be remotely competitive... just seems a waste of money ??
JamilaParr
Well-Known Member
i think they are very accessible, any donkey could get round a 70 or 80cm intro- but hey they're just thinking of the money and tyring to get as much of it as they can (BS BD BE).
Leg_end
Well-Known Member
Diggerbez, when I last evented properly I only did unaffiliated but I competed up to the equivalent of BE Novice. The courses were big, bold and encouraged forward riding. This was only 9/10 years ago but I was really shocked when I came back, walked some courses and saw how much they'd changed. The standard was no different to affiliated competitions, you just tended to see a higher calibre of horse and rider at affiliated. I would quite happily compete at unaffiliated level if the standards were there but they aren't so will need to pay extra £££ for that.
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TheoryX1
Well-Known Member
OP - we too live in an area which is very well served with BE events, plus not too badly off with BS and BE. I have to say I read your post in relation to mine and really cringed, I can see your point. I have to be honest, we are on an eventing yard, we own the 'Princess' that the YO bred to event, our PC is great with training and most of Mini TX's friends are pretty clued up, I think we are pretty looked after and Mini TX has always been fairly well prepared. I personally dont event, being the chauffeur, banker, groom and shoulder to cry on, ie eventing mum (though I hanker a secret desire to take Mini TX's current mare around a BE90 Open near the end of her eventing days .......). Oddy enough most the parents we know well, children event at BE are pretty clued up as well. She is hopefully going to take the step up to Intermediate and will definitely do a 1* next year, all being well, with the aim being of getting on the JRN team for our region (sorry, ONU18 team). There is no way that she will not be prepared for that, certainly if both myself and her trainer and our YO who has been a total inspiration to her have anything to do with it.
I have sat on the sidelines with a good friend and her teenager and watch them crash and burn while doing BE. The child ended up with having a rotational fall - both her and the horse were ok, losing her nerve, selling the horse and taking up dressage. Said child tried to go too far too fast, egged on by an ambitious mother. Lessons learned all around - I couldnt say anything at the time because she was competing against my daughter, who was beating the pants off of her all the time, as it would not have gone down well. It took a nasty fall, some really crap, crap, crap BE100 results for her to give it up, selling the eventer they bought at a huge loss. It was such a shame, but she was just not prepared.
I have sat on the sidelines with a good friend and her teenager and watch them crash and burn while doing BE. The child ended up with having a rotational fall - both her and the horse were ok, losing her nerve, selling the horse and taking up dressage. Said child tried to go too far too fast, egged on by an ambitious mother. Lessons learned all around - I couldnt say anything at the time because she was competing against my daughter, who was beating the pants off of her all the time, as it would not have gone down well. It took a nasty fall, some really crap, crap, crap BE100 results for her to give it up, selling the eventer they bought at a huge loss. It was such a shame, but she was just not prepared.
TallyHo123
Well-Known Member
Agree with this. Where I live there isn't many affiliated events without having to travel far, I don't feel like they are easy to acess and they should be IMO.
kerilli
Well-Known Member
Actually that is Necarne in Northern Ireland - that is the 2* fence - the 1* fence is beside it - it is bloody huge but most definately not a PN fence!!
Necarne also doesnt do a normal ode; it is only used (was only used) for FEI
only_me, thanks for posting that, i was thinking "CRIPES, i've never seen a PN fence that big!"
wench
Well-Known Member
I have seen some very bad riding... at Burgie training event last year I saw a woman literally ride her horse into a tree.
You may see bad riding at the lower levels... but you dont know the person and you dont know the horse.
If you saw me riding henry on a bad day, you would have thought what on earth was I doing on him. If you saw him at home it would look entirely different
You may see bad riding at the lower levels... but you dont know the person and you dont know the horse.
If you saw me riding henry on a bad day, you would have thought what on earth was I doing on him. If you saw him at home it would look entirely different
stencilface
High upon a hillside
Yep. Everyone should have a chance - who knows, they might work up from 80cm and end up going advanced/over 1.20m.
Whilst we are fairly well serviced around here for unaff comps most of the time, it hasn't always been like that. One of the local places that has now started doing BS is just awful, I won't be going back there and I'm not even that picky. And if you do trailblazers, you can end up warming up with 12.2 ponies, which for some horses just is very difficult!
Plus for older horses, who are now going down through the classes, or staying at the same level, these classes need to be there - from 70 -1.20m imho. Their should be an acheivable goal for the less brave souls that are not cashed up and have to work 5+ days a week. Just because you're only jumping 90cm doesn't mean you don't have goals.
All the disciplines are funded (by majority) by hard working ordinary folk who want something enjoyable to do on their weekends. Get rid of the lower levels, and wave bye bye to the higher ones imho.
An old saying, but people generally learn form their own mistakes, not other peoples so people need to experience and learn things for themselves, you can't learn everything from books and lessons
Whilst we are fairly well serviced around here for unaff comps most of the time, it hasn't always been like that. One of the local places that has now started doing BS
is just awful, I won't be going back there and I'm not even that picky. And if you do trailblazers, you can end up warming up with 12.2 ponies, which for some horses just is very difficult!Plus for older horses, who are now going down through the classes, or staying at the same level, these classes need to be there - from 70 -1.20m imho. Their should be an acheivable goal for the less brave souls that are not cashed up and have to work 5+ days a week. Just because you're only jumping 90cm doesn't mean you don't have goals.
All the disciplines are funded (by majority) by hard working ordinary folk who want something enjoyable to do on their weekends. Get rid of the lower levels, and wave bye bye to the higher ones imho.
An old saying, but people generally learn form their own mistakes, not other peoples so people need to experience and learn things for themselves, you can't learn everything from books and lessons
only_me
Well-Known Member
LOL!
I thought someone might say that!
I used to walk up to it every year, thankfully it seemed smaller every year! The width of it is huge - it is about fence 8 on the course, after a steep long slope down
More of a rider frightner than horse - i have never seen a horse stop at it
WonderPone
New User
I have no idea why you would want your lower levels to be unregulated ! Surely, for the matter of safety, if you have a National body who can oversee standards, why wouldn't you want them to cater for good, safe, effective competition, from the ground up ?
event_rider
Well-Known Member
It's actually the straight route on the old CCI* track at the event in Necarne Castle! There was no alternative and despite the fact that the fence was maximum height and width it always rode well! Very solid with a big thick ground line out in front to back a horse off and came at fence 7 so horses were fresh and generally jumping well by the time they got there despite the fact that it was after a serious down hill gallop!
The angle of the photo helps because it makes it look like theres a drop and a massive ditch but in reality there's neither! Inky_and_Sunny - you must have been standing right beside the event photographers (Prime Photography) at the time because I have a more or less indentical photo of me jumping the same fence from the exact same angle!
Have to admit it was a serious rider frightener though - I remember coming down to it on a green 6 year old one year and it looked bloody massive!
only_me
Well-Known Member
Maybe it was the 1*; I can never remember which side is which!
I always thought the right side was 2* and the left 1*!
I always thought the right side was 2* and the left 1*!
event_rider
Well-Known Member
LOL!
I thought someone might say that!
I used to walk up to it every year, thankfully it seemed smaller every year! The width of it is huge - it is about fence 8 on the course, after a steep long slope down
More of a rider frightner than horse - i have never seen a horse stop at it
OOPS...sorry only_me - only saw your post after I had submitted mine (should have read the whole way through the thread!). That photo was actually over the old CCI* part of the fence - only reason I know this is because of the yellow markers on the flags and the fact that I have the same photo of me jumping it on a novice horse! Think the last time it was jumped on the 1* track was in 2006 (the year they held the Junior Euros there!).
The 2* always jumped further to the right which I could never understand as it always walked more straight forward as the ditch was less of a factor and as far as I could tell there was no difference in height!
Deffo a rider frightener though but there was a few more of those around littered around the course! Necarne was always an extremely strong track - every fence up to height, quite technical and the most strenuous track I've ever come across because of the bloody hills!
SO1
Well-Known Member
I don't event but i do jump judge occasionally for BE including at advanced and so i do see a lot of riders going round X country including some nasty falls and horse accidents - and these are not necessarily the novice riders either.
I am sure if you looked at the number of accidents/falls at each level you will find the higher up you go the more incidents as in the higher levels the riders are very competitive and may push on to get the optimum time or be taking the harder routes.
I think having the lower levels is good as people know they are getting a course designed by people who have had the appropriate training or they are being judged by a judge with the relevant training if doing dressage or showing.
Everyone has to start somewhere and working through the levels is sensible. Some people will want to stop at an earlier stage than others but does it mean that they do not deserve well designed courses and trained judges?
If people are worried that accidents will happen due to lack of horse or rider preparation then perhaps before entering people should be made to attend an affiliated training day at that level so they know what they are letting themselves in for and then can only go up to the next level if they have achieved a double clear, or a certain % if doing dressage?
Most affiliated events could not be run without lots of volunteers and even then they struggle to break even so the more money they can get from holding a wider range of competitions the more money there is to put back into the sport, and provide prize money etc at the higher levels.
The majority of Riding Clubs would struggle to find enough volunteers to put on an ODE - so there is not that many changes for people to compete at RC level on a regular basis if they want to event.
I am sure if you looked at the number of accidents/falls at each level you will find the higher up you go the more incidents as in the higher levels the riders are very competitive and may push on to get the optimum time or be taking the harder routes.
I think having the lower levels is good as people know they are getting a course designed by people who have had the appropriate training or they are being judged by a judge with the relevant training if doing dressage or showing.
Everyone has to start somewhere and working through the levels is sensible. Some people will want to stop at an earlier stage than others but does it mean that they do not deserve well designed courses and trained judges?
If people are worried that accidents will happen due to lack of horse or rider preparation then perhaps before entering people should be made to attend an affiliated training day at that level so they know what they are letting themselves in for and then can only go up to the next level if they have achieved a double clear, or a certain % if doing dressage?
Most affiliated events could not be run without lots of volunteers and even then they struggle to break even so the more money they can get from holding a wider range of competitions the more money there is to put back into the sport, and provide prize money etc at the higher levels.
The majority of Riding Clubs would struggle to find enough volunteers to put on an ODE - so there is not that many changes for people to compete at RC level on a regular basis if they want to event.
HoneyMonster
New User
I think the lower levels at Affiliated are a good thing. Unaffiliated competitions can be haphazard with ground and course building. I have a young horse with whom I hope to compete BE. I am happy there is the BE 80 (T) as frankly the local unaffilated courses are plain dangerous. I think the problem is people trying to compete to a higher level than they are ready for. I have always thought you should be schooling to a level or two above that at which you compete, regardless of the discipline?
I have ensured I have started her career with good training whereby we are jumping courses faultlessly at a higher level than which we are competing. I do appreciate not everyone is the same and where you see some people 'having a go' it can be awful to watch, affiliated or otherwise
I recently spoke to one of my clients who has competed 4* on numerous occasions, she mentioned that now if you dont have a string of horses it is very difficult to qualify as you have to run your horse so often.
This issue isnt such a problem with dressage as there is no major safety aspect so you can happily work through to novice level and then move onto the affiliated competitions.
I have ensured I have started her career with good training whereby we are jumping courses faultlessly at a higher level than which we are competing. I do appreciate not everyone is the same and where you see some people 'having a go' it can be awful to watch, affiliated or otherwise
I recently spoke to one of my clients who has competed 4* on numerous occasions, she mentioned that now if you dont have a string of horses it is very difficult to qualify as you have to run your horse so often.
This issue isnt such a problem with dressage as there is no major safety aspect so you can happily work through to novice level and then move onto the affiliated competitions.
wellsat
Well-Known Member
Couldn't have put it better myself.
Orangehorse
Well-Known Member
There aren't nearly as many RC/PC ODE or hunter trials that there used to be. Clubs and hunts can make as much or more money from running pleasure rides without the expense and worry of a cross country competition, so whereas in my youth I went to loads of local hunter trials there are hardly any now. So the BE classes are meeting a need. I also jumped some EXTREMELY bad cross country courses in the old days when a PC father would design and build the course.
More the merrier, if it fills the entries and people have nice well built courses, good luck to them.
More the merrier, if it fills the entries and people have nice well built courses, good luck to them.