should affiliated competition be so accessible?

event_rider said:
OOPS...sorry only_me - only saw your post after I had submitted mine (should have read the whole way through the thread!). That photo was actually over the old CCI* part of the fence - only reason I know this is because of the yellow markers on the flags and the fact that I have the same photo of me jumping it on a novice horse! Think the last time it was jumped on the 1* track was in 2006 (the year they held the Junior Euros there!).

The 2* always jumped further to the right which I could never understand as it always walked more straight forward as the ditch was less of a factor and as far as I could tell there was no difference in height!

Deffo a rider frightener though but there was a few more of those around littered around the course! Necarne was always an extremely strong track - every fence up to height, quite technical and the most strenuous track I've ever come across because of the bloody hills!
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So glad o_m set the record straight on this one, I was going to do the same! And just to muddy the waters further, when the course ran the other way round it came near the end and was only on the 2*, you could choose across the whole width, jumping it up the hill. I thought it was seriously scary on a tiring horse even at that level and was always relieved to get it over with - always jumped fine though, it was the next fence (that log on the mound) which crucified everyone :o When they turned the course round they made it as you describe, 2* on the right 1* on the left. I don't think it had much to do with dimensions, although was possibly a tad bigger on right due to the ground, but it did make the turn to the next fence (usually a combination eg those brush corners) far more demanding so I assume that's why they did it that way round. Anyway, it would be a great mistake to describe that as in any way a PN fence!! And, sticking my neck out here, I'm afraid that if that SJ in the other photo is on a PN track I will eat a very unpleasant, smelly hat I keep for mucking oiut ;) :D

On the wider debate, I don't have much to add really, other than 1) I'm all for inclusivity, I hate cliques/exclusion so if people want to do affiliated I think they should be encouraged to do so (it's usually the people who have only just scraped in themselves who are keen to shut others out, ime ;) ) and 2) Round here there are very few (no?) high level unaff events eg the 3'6" ones that Magic Melon describes so if you want to jump bigger you have to affiliate.
 
Inky_and_Sunny said:
And the SJ in the same class

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Tis all bigger than you think :eek:
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This is DEFNITELY Aske Hall, and at least the Nov class, if not the intermediate. It's definitely not Bradwall PN. Actually I'm sure it's the intermediate.

Tabledancer, your hat's safe ;)
 
Gamebird said:
This is DEFNITELY Aske Hall, and at least the Nov class, if not the intermediate. It's definitely not Bradwall PN. Actually I'm sure it's the intermediate.

Tabledancer, your hat's safe ;)
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Ha, yes, not a PN fence, I'd stake my stinky mucking-out hat on that too.
Inky_and_Sunny, I think the labels on your photos have gotten a bit muddled! Please stop trying to scare the pants off everyone with pictures of humungous fences that you are convinced are PN... thanks. ;) ;)
I'd lay quite a lot of money that the back bar of that white parallel is 3'6" or more...
 
I used to be really fed up with dumbing down by BE but I have relaxed about it all now and having had the pleasure of talking to several organisers in depth about the BE80T concept I think its a great idea especially the training aspect. I do like to see certain standards and competancies and I think that there should be some way of monitoring this better and helping people but its a massive conundrum on how this can be done. I hate seeing bad riding and I guess I always hope to see less affiliated. But everyone has to start somewhere and the fact that the worst falls are at 2* says something IMO.
 
Difficult one. When I started jumping in the 80s, BSJA was definitely aspiration and it was a major achievement when having done a summer of local unaffiliated we did our first affiliated class and I think came 4th. The prize money brackets were quite close and so it was a march through from newcomers (the first proper class other than the odd 3'3 such as the Priory Progress/Bucks Beginners champs) and onto Foxhunter. However, her physical limit was Fox/small Grade C and so once she had jumped herself out of the classes she could manage there wasn't anything left for us to do and so it was back to open unaffiliated, whereas now there are the 1m opens and that type of class.

I think though that the fact that there was a fairly strict progression meant that if you had a horse capable of it you went through the classes and it meant you did progress rather than taking the easy option of doing smaller classes and it was a real achievement. The structure pushed us on and made me jump in classes and places I would never had imagined.

I don't know anything about unaffiliated show jumping these days but back then there were good local shows and the open could be 3'9"/4' with a strong mix of unaffiliated and affiliated horses in them and the show centres used to put on decent unaffliated shows as well.

I have never evented so cannot comment. I have not BD'd but do intend to at some point and again would personally view that as aspirational as I would want it to be competively not just to say I had done it.

I liked that it was aspirational and the structure drove me forward but I can understand very well where the current structure comes from particularly in the economic climate.
 
Good luck finding anything over 3ft3 SJ opens round me and in reality they struggle to be built past 3ft and even those are relatively rare, you tend to get a 2ft9 then a 3ft-3ft3 class at unaffiliated and built to the lower end and no width to oxers or proper striding as they are built for horses and ponies!

Trailblazers now hold up to 1m15 classes, which is fine if you have a venue nearby that runs them. My local trailblazer SJ venue is West Wilts which is a good 2.5 hour drive away and they only hold classes up to 95cm!!

Unfortunately decent height and built courses just don't exist these days unaffiliated with only a few exceptions. I'm a bit stuck as an eventer now as I want to jump some 1m+ tracks especially pre season but can't afford to pay BS membership as well as BE which means jumping on a ticket so no chance of placing/prize money!
 
BS are running the eventer membership again and that is actually a really economical way of being a BS member. I think its still only £30 for you and the horse. Its for Jan - March.
 
I can see arguments from both sides but I think its a good idea, but I think it depends on the discipline.

When I took my baby 4yr old ex racer to BD for his first show I did it because I knew it was going to be a safer and more pleasant experienced than the local unaff walk and trot test.
It was because the people there were adults who understood young, sharp horses. Etiquette was pretty much followed in the warm up (theres always one loose cannon ;) ), the judges are fair, the surface is good, theres not too many in the class or warm up ect ect. It was quiet and professional and my horse was really relaxed and went into an indoor school for the very first time and did a beautiful test. A much nicer experience then being crammed in a warm up with poor surface, hundreds of kids flying around, novices on nervy horses, judges who dont know what they are doing ect ect!
I always find I get higher marks at BD then unaff as well ;)!

Saying that I think some unaff shows are great and I do enjoy going to unafffilliated shows but I agree if jumping 3ft plus you really would rather be at an affilliated show. Also some of the distances showjumping at unaffilliated level are very bizarre!!! Especially in the 'training' level height courses (2ft6 stuff) The difficulty in building a course for a 12hh pony and a 16.2hh 4 yr old?? Thats why I think the 70cm/80cm classes are not a bad idea at senior BS, at least you know the striding is horse striding so they are better for youngsters. Not everyone wants to take a 4yr old straight round a BN and its still that happy height where you can make a baby jump from a standstill if neccessary, you also know the fences are going to be on forgiving lines ect.

BE is a bit different as there is a safety issue but like what has been mentioned, crappy riders are going to do unaffilliated anyway with less monitoring, poorer built courses ect. However I do think the value a BE record adds to a horses worth encourages less capable riders to give it a bash on their horse or for people to take youngsters who arent ready. It also adds kudos and thats what some people want isnt it? I'll never forget this one awful vision going round the intro at Twesledown, a very nervy lady rider was clinging desperatly on to what looked a young horse and she was trotting slowly round the intro, coming into a fence and only just scrambling over. I had my heart in my mouth!

I definitly think intro BE is harder then doing the intro levels at BS and BD. Its also loads more expensive. I dont really care what people think of me but I take my young horse to do BD Prelim and Novice and BS 80cm stuff because it costs the same and is a more adult and professional environment to train (and yes I use those levels for training not competing ;) ) a young horse. BE to me is a different ball game, if I want to do 2ft3 i'll go and do the local hunter trial. If I dont like a fence or think its too much for my horse at unaff I can just miss it out, BE is too expensive to train round. However after getting clears in BS BN and being placed in BD Novice and jumping happy round unaff hunter trial I would do BE intro or 80T. To me, no point in doing BE unless theres a good probability of getting placed or at least double clear, its just too expensive otherwise and it is too dangerous.
 
For all those saying they can't get the height and decent courses (BS) in their area have they ever thought of getting together and running a show themselves then they could have the classes they need and if they need them you can bet your bottom dollar other riders do too? Find a decent venue, a decent course builder and some like minded friends and you're away; I wouldn't just moan about lack of classes, I'd do something about it. You could even offer to sponsor a larger class at your normal show, see what sort of reception it gets if you don't want to run your own show. How do you think venues originally started, by someone having a dream.
 
Maesfen said:
For all those saying they can't get the height and decent courses (BS) in their area have they ever thought of getting together and running a show themselves then they could have the classes they need and if they need them you can bet your bottom dollar other riders do too? Find a decent venue, a decent course builder and some like minded friends and you're away; I wouldn't just moan about lack of classes, I'd do something about it. You could even offer to sponsor a larger class at your normal show, see what sort of reception it gets if you don't want to run your own show. How do you think venues originally started, by someone having a dream.
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We do do something about it - we go affliated.
 
If you cut out the little courses you cut out the money spinners

the 70cm - 1m courses make the money BSJA and frankly without them many centres wouldn't bother paying the fee to BS

The same on BE the smaller classes are over subscribed and are the "cash cows".

So yes affiliated could be made exclusive, but do the people jumping the bigger heights want to pay lots for it?? Doubtful!

Smaller heights are here to stay
 
I think its great its getting more accessible....

i want to affiliate - i have done a few unaffiliated events but id rather make it 'worthwhile' imo.... i dont want to do riding club points thing as its not my thing at all - i want to get my mare BD and points on her card... not planning to sell her but just for an achievement
 
Maesfen said:
For all those saying they can't get the height and decent courses (BS) in their area have they ever thought of getting together and running a show themselves then they could have the classes they need and if they need them you can bet your bottom dollar other riders do too? Find a decent venue, a decent course builder and some like minded friends and you're away; I wouldn't just moan about lack of classes, I'd do something about it. You could even offer to sponsor a larger class at your normal show, see what sort of reception it gets if you don't want to run your own show. How do you think venues originally started, by someone having a dream.
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Easier said than done surely. Hiring a venue for the day is probably bloody expensive, the time it takes to organise would be fairly unfeasible for most people with full time jobs, and unfortunately, classes above 3ft locally just don't have a lot of demand - because most people who want that will already have affiliated.

I would think there's also insurance and health and safety problems to think about.

It would probably be far less expensive, not to mention less stressful and easier - to just affiliate.
 
Not had chance to read all of the responses but personally yes, I think it is good that BS is so accessible. IMO getting to the 'proper' classes (Foxhunter +) is still a goal to work towards so in that sense that hasn't been lost in the introduction of smaller classes. I'm not a great rider and will be the first to admit that, what I like about BS is, however, that I can jump predominantly well-built tracks, at good venues, with good judges and people in a collecting ring who understand the left-to-left rule and the concept of jumping jumps with the red flag on the right :rolleyes: I also like to know that the competition I'm at id regulated, unaff seems a little hit and miss some times ;)
 
I must admit I used to think it was silly with BS having such small courses some as low as 70cm this was when I was on an experienced pony jumping foxes plus and thought it was silly when people would do tiny classes.

BUT Koko who had one hell of a jump in him but as a 5yo I didn't want to push him further then 90cm but I was so fed up with unaffiliated events! The lower levels of BS were a god send to us and we were really working on him and before he died started jumping 1m courses and he was just getting better and better and it was thanks to the lower levels he did. If he didn't die he would have easily reached senior foxhunter and probably gone on higher despite being a dainty 14.2

However, BE was different I wasn't planning on eventing him until 2012 where we was going to go in at BE100 with thoughts of progressing to novice. BE was so much more expensive we didn't see the point of affiliating until he was up to the bigger height courses whether he would have got that far we will never know but I had no doubt he would.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is I like the lower levels for bringing on the youngster but as a novice I think you should stay in unaffiliated as affiliated is meant to be the next step which unfortunatly it doesn't seem to be anymore.
 
I don't think the problem lies so much in the fact that the lower height classes exist....tbh, most horses need to start at or near the bottom albeit perhaps just for a few shows....and as others have pointed out before, these lower level classes do subsidise the membership and teams jumping at the higher levels. Where the problem lies for me is that there is no incentive for people to move up through the levels and fulfill their and their horses potential. The way to strengthen teams and achieve success at the highest levels is to have a system that pushes up from the bottom. If you look back to the golden era of British showjumping it was underpinned by a system where there were very few open classes or sections, and certainly no amateur classes....horses and riders were pushed more and made to jump the next level once they had proven success at the current level. Now i'm not saying BS needs to regress all that way back as many horses do have a limit that is lower than Foxhunter and possibly even Newcomer, but there has to be some sort of balance whereby those who do have the ability (but perhaps lack the confidence and support) are enouraged to push themselves out of their comfort zones. I think it is crazy that people 'aspire' to jump 80cms and 90cms courses on horses that could very easily be jumping 1.10m+ tracks and then stay there for the rest of their lives. Just my opinion of course...
 
Rambo said:
Where the problem lies for me is that there is no incentive for people to move up through the levels and fulfill their and their horses potential. The way to strengthen teams and achieve success at the highest levels is to have a system that pushes up from the bottom. If you look back to the golden era of British showjumping it was underpinned by a system where there were very few open classes or sections, and certainly no amateur classes....horses and riders were pushed more and made to jump the next level once they had proven success at the current level.
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Very good and interesting point. However, for me this is where the disciplines diverge. In eventing it is very important that people don't feel they must strive to go up the grades as that is when it gets dangerous, and this has, to me, been a problem in the past. There are many combinations who SHOULD have no aspiration to progress beyond BE90/100 level :o In the past the structure very much encouraged them to look up the grades and try their luck. I think BE has done a good job of creating far more interest at the lower levels (more exciting GR Champs, Junior classes, Foundation Points etc) so the majority don't feel they must push on out of their comfort zone. I think the structure is still in place that those who are capable and ambitious have the means and the motive to move up the grades and certainly there is no sign at present that our teams are running out of worthy candidates.
 
Anything that gets more people involved in competing/riding/enjoying their horses in any form is a good thing. One thing that does slightly confuse me, though, is the lack of training and support that may be an issue for inexperience combinations going straight into BE.

Those who come up through Pony Club/Riding Club/unaffiliated comps will have XC schooling, interbranch comps, camps, clinics. The support structure is there. If, on the other hand, people bypass that and go in at BE80(T), they are on their own. I think people would be less likely to go it alone and more likely to seek help if they had to go straight in at N. So maybe there needs to be more training put on by BE to supplement the lower levels. I know that they are taking steps in this direction with CDT and EHOA, but there still isn't a huge amount on offer. I nearly joined my local riding club in order to get regular, local training, rather than having to travel miles to get to a CDT session - and it's something I will look at again next year. It is good to have the lower levels, so everyone can compete over good quality, well designed courses.

Would also be interesting to hear from those who went straight to BE levels without any unaffil experience - how did you find it?
 
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It shouldn't matter if you are affiliated or not - as long as you and the horse are competeing at whatever level you are happy with, safe to do so, and enjoy it, who cares if its "BE" or Pony Club!
 
wench said:
It shouldn't matter if you are affiliated or not - as long as you and the horse are competeing at whatever level you are happy with, safe to do so, and enjoy it, who cares if its "BE" or Pony Club!
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I agree completely, I prefer to do BS Intro level shows to jump smaller but well built courses, I enjoy the whole going to "proper" shows but on a smaller scale thing. My BS membership pays towards the top level shows for the pros, I am enjoying myself safely, look at the bigger classes & aim towards those in the future, so how is that a bad thing?
 
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