Should breed matter in a new horse?

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Jango

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So like many people I'm having a bit of a nightmare trying to buy a new horse! I've had 2 failed vettings and I've found another horse I really like but I didn't want a warmblood! I wanted a irish sportshorse with, probably 50% warmblood as I want something with good movement for affiliated dressage.

This guy is full KWPN, 5 year old and very weak as just had a growth spurt but good conformation and an absolutely fab temperament. I wanted a small, young horse, good paces, backed, happy athlete and easy to do. He is all of these things and he makes me smile. But my physio has said how slow they are to mature and generally they seem to cause more problems than irish horses!

So did you buy something who fit the bill but wasn't the right breed? I seriously don't know what to do!!
 
I did.

I wanted, and there was no discretion, a RID heavyweight potential show hunter.

I bought a Selle Francais middleweight dressage horse that had been a working stallion until being cut before I bought him. He turned into a superstar and took us to Hoys twice and many more championships as a m/w hunter. The success as a dressage horse was an added bonus. He is retired now, and has had numerous health problems, but I am so pleased he came into my life when he did.

In your position I think you need to decide if you are happy to wait for the horse to mature and the environment in which you will keep him. I had only had Irish horses prior to the French horse and they are very different. Would I have another foreign horse, No I would not. But that is based on my own needs of a horse that thinks for itself and me and has a deep sense of self preservation, warmbloods seem to need a regimented routine and are too soul less for my liking.
 
Yes and no .
In your case I would buy the kwpn with a big smile on my face because I love them.
But there's no point in buying what you know you don't like .
But it would be mad for me to buy a Cleveland bay and unfair to the horse because I just don't like them I won't buy the ID/ TB cross for my self either .
The top of all sports is stuffed with KWPNs
With a kwpn you are buying years of selective breeding for competition so that's tends to be what they are happiest doing there brains do suit proper structured training because they have selected for their trainability for a long time I suspect for a long time ID's where selected for their ability to survive on very little food and this shows in them.
I disagree what kwpn don't think for themselves if their training and development allows for this they certainly do I have one at the moment who can get himself out of any issue at the hounds he's rapier sharp and have had two others who memorable in this department including one who arrived as a very jump where tell me well produced SJer from a good pro yard who took to taking her own desisions like a duck to water when her circumtances changed.
They are also certainly not soulless that's a awful thing to say and I am quite insulted on the behalf of my departed friends who where both great characters .
The one I have ATM I could write a book about he's a hilarious horse fun brave sharp very off the wall at times careful he's got the heart of a lion he would go for till he dropped .
If you like the horse if you can imagine wanting to ride when it's cold wet and windy ( I always ask myself that ) if it's vibe it's character interested you don't get hung up on the breed just buy it .
 
AdorableAlice said:
warmbloods seem to need a regimented routine and are too soul less for my liking.
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Heavens - I've found SOMETHING I disagree with you on - I think that's a first. I have to admit my disagreement is based on just one horse - who is the limit to my firsthand experience with Warmbloods. I bought him 10 years ago when I thought buying a few horses, schooling them on and selling them (at a profit, of course) would keep me gainfully 'employed' while I was building up my mae herd.

He came from Ireland, was VERY cheap, and arrived skin and bone. He was a KWPN graded stallion who was actually pure Selle Francais - and whose father was the great Quidam De Revel.

Admittedly he was out of a mare by RID stallion Errigal Flight out of a TB mare - so dam was a genuine, old fashioned Irish Sport horse.

He has proved a teensy bit accident prone in the 10 years I have had him - but it only amounts to a check ligament when he was 5 and in the field, and a very slight, current unlevelness at present. He didn't have the best feet in the world but - with a good farrier - they've not caused him a moments problems.

For various reasons (that I'd have to write practically a book to cover) he has done very little in his life. He's done 1 x ODE - and came 2nd. The one thing I can say is that he's had a good life that virtually all horses would enjoy. He is ridden at least 5 times a week by capable riders - and he always has a BIG stable (his current one is 14' x 24'). |He spends at least a few hours a day in the field EVERY day unless the weather and conditions are foul. I adore him - as does EVERY member of my staff - from full time girls to the Sunday girls - and the only chance he has of being sold is if I am SUDDENLY dead. If I knew I was dying, he would be the first of (currently) 96 horses for whom I would arrange either an amost guaranteed good home (and the potential new owner would have to cjump through a LOT of hoops to get him, or if he was old, to be humanely PTS

His life - work wise - varies from a 30 minute schooling session, giving an already competent staff member a lesson (which he does as well as the majority of Instructors, at least, or hacking - in decent hacking country - usually solo although he occasionally does the 'looking after babies in their early hacking days' job - I won't let him do it TOO often because it is boring.

He certainly comes to 'the closest to being the perfect horse' championship - I have owned a lot of horses in just over 60 years.. And I still remember the 'best competion find' (he was VERY unusual when I bought HIM in 1972. He was an ex-hurdler with a ? over ongoing soundness and I paid meat money for him at the age of 7. 5 years later, MOST people would have called him the top showjumper of the year - and probably the next year too. I only 'contributed ' to his success with his first year of basic training and his 2nd year that included his first (and only) ODE (his dressage was appalling, his showjumping was respectable, and his xc was terrifying!! The rest of that year I spent on Showjumping at then D&C level - he virtually never touched a fence and he did a big number of jump offs, and got some 3rds, 4ths and 5ths. The FIRST time my trainer (who was the best professional in Australia for MANY years saw me jump him he started trying to buy him. He finally did - because I NEEDED the money - until then we had a very happy 'partnership'. The fact that Jim wasn't at the 1980 Olympics was that Art Uytendaal was a true professional and they totally banned any professionals then.

Jango - a simple summary. My ONLY experience with a KWPN was Mr. Perfect Horse, who was BY a KWPN except the KWPN was actually a Selle Francais. It would be at LEAST a giggle to look at his passport - I have FAR too much time spare at present so if you can find out who his sire is - and who his dam's sire is - I can easily find you anything online that miht help with your decision.

And you are definitely due some luck (a VERY important part of buying the right horse)
 
Goldenstar said:
If you like the horse if you can imagine wanting to ride when it's cold wet and windy ( I always ask myself that ) if it's vibe it's character interested you don't get hung up on the breed just buy it .
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^^This.

If the horse is sound, able to do the job you want and you like it, what else matters?
I have never owned Irish horses, only WBs (one German, one Dutch) and they both had/have every bit as much character and personality as any ID, TB, ISH , cross or Heinz 57 I have known.
Apart from people who are producing to sell or need a very specific breed for a very specific thing, I have never really understood this business about fixating on a particular breed. Not saying there's anything wrong with it, just that I can't really see the point for a normal leisure/competition horse. IME there's more individual difference within a breed than between breeds, so for me it's a question of whether you like the horse that's in front of you.
 
Thanks everyone! To be honest I do find a lot of warmbloods to be a little dull and lacking in personality and they often have a very 'make me' attitude (not all of them though!) this lad is the complete opposite, he is very alert and responsive without being an idiot, really cuddly in the stable and such a happy chap! I can imagine wanting to ride him in any weather :-) and the thought of training him is super exciting. I think I've just got into my head wb = soundness problems and after my current horse has been retired at 13 I'm petrified of serious problems. But he's well put together and I would get a 5 stage vetting and X-rays.
 
Just like there's not bad colour, I don't think there's a bad breed as such. We've had a real mix of breeds over the years and we just went for temperament, conformation and the ability to do the job and it sounds as if this guy has all of those!
 
With all big weak horses you need to develop them carefully .
When you add in the elasticity in the joints they have bred into the warmblood you need to be doubly careful.
It would be a good investment to get a ACPAT physio whose is interested in that kind of work to show you the inhand exercises they would use to physically develop the horse .
I have been amazed at how much this can develop horses physically with very little wear and tear to the horse verses ridden training .
On soundness at one time tbh my WB's have been less trouble than many of the Irish horses we have had who often hunt to young and pay the price later.
There's a bit of luck involved with getting trouble free horses.
It's worth asking the vet about using myoplast which I have used recently I was a sceptic at first but I have say it's worked well on one of mine and my friends driving pony .
Good luck with the vetting if you decide to go forwards with it.
 
All horses have characters, whether you like that character or not is another matter. Some people are unable to draw out a horse's character, which could be the case with AdorableAlice. I have a warmblood, a mare, who has oodles of character but isn't a demonstrative whinnying throw-buckets-over-the-door type. She's probably soulless to people who haven't taken any time to know her, but has a big fan base with people who have.

Back to the original poster, you say he makes you smile? He's athletic and fits the bill. He's young and bred for the job you want him to do. You're not looking to continue specific bloodlines, him being a gelding an' all.
 
I'm definitely a convert to warmbloods - bought a Selle Francais x KWPN for my daughter five years ago and he has been a wonderful horse. Far from being a 'dumb-blood' he is one of the most intelligent horses I have ever met. But generous and kind enough to take my then nervous 13yo daughter from little PC events to successfully competing at BE Novice. He does everything - pure dressage, SJ, hunting (will lead the field over a big hedge, whip-in etc), Pony Club rallies and camps, but safe enough for me to enjoy hacking too. We weren't looking for a warmblood at all - my thought was for an Irish type or a pony x TB, but glad we chose the horse we did.

In fact I'm such a convert that I have now bought another Selle Francais x KWPN, but this time a 2yo! Time will tell what he is like to ride, but to handle he is a delight - quick to learn and responsive, but also very kind and gentle.
 
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I've had four WB's and to be honest I don't think I would want another - at least not pure bred anyway, I would consider a shire x WB or a TB x WB maybe. I think they can be very problematic, particuarly with physical issues like joints and ligaments, I think sometimes they are broken in very early if they are imports and this is half the trouble. Their digestion leaves a lot to be desired, I know all mine have had very sensitive stomachs and know of many more livery horses that have had colic due to being put on grass when they have probably never been on grass for so long before (again if they are imports). They are not the type of horse that you can chuck out in a field with others, they are not really very 'street wise', and seem to have led very sheltered upbringings if they are imports and have trouble looking after themselves, they always seem to get into scrapes of one thing and another.

This is only my personal experience. Having said that I've had a ID x TB and would never have another!
 
Should breed matter? Only if you are heart-set on a particular breed, are going to be breeding (in which case it's not only the breed, but specific bloodlines which are important), or want to show in breed classes. Other than that, a horse is a horse, and all that is important is that you like that particular individual.
 
applecart14 said:
I've had four WB's and to be honest I don't think I would want another - at least not pure bred anyway, I would consider a shire x WB or a TB x WB maybe. I think they can be very problematic, particuarly with physical issues like joints and ligaments, I think sometimes they are broken in very early if they are imports and this is half the trouble. Their digestion leaves a lot to be desired, I know all mine have had very sensitive stomachs and know of many more livery horses that have had colic due to being put on grass when they have probably never been on grass for so long before (again if they are imports). They are not the type of horse that you can chuck out in a field with others, they are not really very 'street wise', and seem to have led very sheltered upbringings if they are imports and have trouble looking after themselves, they always seem to get into scrapes of one thing and another.

This is only my personal experience. Having said that I've had a ID x TB and would never have another!
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I think a lot of the problems you describe above are due to the way those horses have been brought up, rather than their breeding. Both my warmbloods are British-bred and are used to living out etc.
 
TGM said:
I think a lot of the problems you describe above are due to the way those horses have been brought up, rather than their breeding. Both my warmbloods are British-bred and are used to living out etc.
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Yes I expect you are right with what you say. Maybe I should say I wouldn't have another imported warmblood. I do think its a lot to do with the change and the freedom that they suddenly experience when imported that causes the problem. That and the fact that imported horses are broken in much younger and expected to do a lot more at an early age to make them easier to sell to a british audience. Again this is just my own personal experience and thoughts, don't mean to offend anyone x
 
I must admit I have never gone for breed. I have gone for a horse that I believe is capable of doing the job I want, age, size and temprement etc. I currently have a wb x tb and a tb. Both bought for the low level rc activities I want to do. Wb x tb has never been the easiest horse but he has taught me loads. The tb has been an absolute star in the short time I've had him. Horses for courses as they say!
 
I would just like to point out that an Irish Sport horse IS a warm blood! A warm blood is the cross between a hot blood (TB) and and cold blood (ID or Norman etc) The only difference is that the europeans have continually crossed these horses so that they breed a much more consistant type. However the Irish, having realised that they were left behind on the world breeding platform are now doing exactly the same! Find the horse you like and can ride and that will do your job.
 
sport horse said:
I would just like to point out that an Irish Sport horse IS a warm blood! A warm blood is the cross between a hot blood (TB) and and cold blood (ID or Norman etc) The only difference is that the europeans have continually crossed these horses so that they breed a much more consistant type. However the Irish, having realised that they were left behind on the world breeding platform are now doing exactly the same! Find the horse you like and can ride and that will do your job.
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I am so pleased that someone said that about a Sports Horse being a warmblood, 'Sport' is a very useful prefix.

Totally agree with the last sentence too.
 
Charlie007 said:
I must admit I have never gone for breed. I have gone for a horse that I believe is capable of doing the job I want, age, size and temprement etc. I currently have a wb x tb and a tb. Both bought for the low level rc activities I want to do. Wb x tb has never been the easiest horse but he has taught me loads. The tb has been an absolute star in the short time I've had him. Horses for courses as they say!
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My shopping list has always been WB, gelding, bright bay or black, 17hh - 17.2hh, 7-10years, white markings preferable, no significant BSJA winnings, good to clip, box, farrier, etc. I've always got what I wanted and all my horses bar one fitted this criteria (he was five yrs). Height, colour and age are something I couldn't compromise on. I could go miles to look at a horse and if i didn't think he had a kind eye I wouldn't even sit on him but that's just me.

When you expect to have the horse as a 'forever horse' waiting till you get the right one is essential!
 
Enfys said:
I am so pleased that someone said that about a Sports Horse being a warmblood, 'Sport' is a very useful prefix.

Totally agree with the last sentence too.
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Yep. I've never been overly bothered about breed, it's more about temp, attitude, soundness. I realise certain breeds are predisposed towards certain traits, else we wouldn't have such prolific breeding programmes, but unless it's for showing, then I'd focus on the horse in front of you. My personal preference is probably something with a bit more blood but that said my last purchase I was pleased to get an ID as I've seen and heard such good things about them generally. So it wouldn't be the be all and end all for me, just a part of the mix.
 
I think if the horse ticks the majority of the boxes, it's worth viewing.
When I was looking for a new horse a few years ago, I had a pretty solid idea of what I wanted and I came home with something completely different. Breeding didn't come into it in the end.
 
I was worried Pippy had no character when I first got him. Oh boy, was I wrong ;) It just took a bit of coaxing to get him to come out of his shell.

I've met a couple of kwpns with huge characters, they are similar to the irish in that they are quite comical and cuddly. Perhaps not all that bright ;) But I find that endearing. More like labradors to my border collie of a thoroughbred.
 
I thought 'warmblood' in the traditional sense was a type, rather than literally a cross between a hot blood and a cold blood. So I guess a second or third generation Irish sport horse would qualify, an irish draught x tb would not.
 
Ha ha- My OH was recently looking for a horse and fell in love with a Warmblood type- we then had big rows because I was adamant that a warmblood was not the horse for a happy hacker/funride/hunting novice- so we finally settled on a British Sports Horse (ISH x TB with a dash of shire) -so in other words another type of Warmblood, my son then pointed out that my own horse is in fact also a Warmblood (Morgans are in fact Arab x Saddlebred x welsh...)
 
I've had a good think today and I've paid a deposit and booked a vetting :D he is what I want, he has good breeding on his sire's side, his sire is at PSG with a young rider in Holland, it doesn't matter really but it's nice to know his dad is 1. trainable, 2. sound and 3. safe enough for a young rider!

He was imported as a 2/3year old and was pretty much feral, he was backed as a 4 year old and has been brought on very slowly and sympathetically (the owner is a physio too!) so he has been on regular UK turn out for the last couple of years so hopefully feed etc won't be an issue. I agree with others if they imported at 4/5 year old they have often been rushed for a quick sale and can find it harder to adapt.

my ACPAT physio had been to look at him with me last night and I completely agree GoldenStar the exercises they give you to do are super helpful in building strength. If he passes the vet I'm thinking a mix of hacking (with lots of trips out), light schooling and in hand polework/stretches for the first 6 months or so.
 
Cortez said:
Umm, no they're not. Morgans are a distinct and almost unique breed that traces back to one foundation stallion - Justin Morgan, who was of unknown lineage.
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My Morgans breeding does indeed trace back to Justin Morgan, but included in her bloodlines are Arabs, Saddlebreds and Quarter horses, and it is believed that due to the small but robust stature of Justin Morgan that there is definately some welsh in there somewhere, and they are indeed warmbloods-ie hotXcold and hence their versatility and ability to be a large horse in a more compact body.
 
If you look at what can be registered ISH, KWPN is included (all the big European ones are, and even PRE and PSL by the way)... So I don't see what the difference really is. It's just a name - the reality is that the breeding is actually not that different. It's performance that counts.

Morgans can be dual registered as American Warmbloods in the USA... Lots of breeds we don't think of as "warmbloods" are just as much a Warmblood as the big European studbooks. However, if the studbook has been closed, it stops making sense to think of them as a "mix" of cold and hot (referring to Morgans). The same is true of any modern breed after all.
 
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