Should FEI change their rules to allow tackless?

[Leandy]

No it is too close to the circus. There is a need to be able to demonstrate being safely in control in a public competition environment and an amount of accepted standard equipment is required for that, along with the basic level of standardisation required to run a fair and equal competition. Even in the picture the bay horse is wearing tack, it seems to have a saddle on, just not a bridle. it is not tackless. I can't see that being able to fully control a horse without some simple tack is ever going to be anything other than an edge case exception for people and horses with special talents, it isn't ever going to become mainstream.

If you consider the basic lack of control some have over their horses in certain levels of competition, god help us if they have no tack either.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

What does make me laugh with eventing is technically ANYONE can enter and jump round a course of solid obstacles with any horse and no real prior regulations. To be a jockey you need to pass both a fitness test and a course at the racing school. Even to get your Cat A to ride in point to points you need to go on a 2 day course to prove your capable enough.

 

[Nasicus]

Dear Lord no. I've seen enough deluded souls trying to loose school horses in maneges and bring them in from the field without a headcollar because they've watched a Parrelli video and think they are 'at one' with their bemused (or frightened) horse.
Riders who are competent to compete in a stressful environment without tack are nearly as rare as hens teeth. Let's not encourage those who are a danger to themselves and everyone else.

Exactly my thoughts

 

[Leo Walker]

The judging like against like makes sense. I'd say there would be enough demand for an online version of bitless dressage. It could be done like the mainstream online dressage tests.

I let people compete bitless in the HHO dressage for PFK, but there was very little interest. 1 person!

 

[Annagain]

I let people compete bitless in the HHO dressage for PFK, but there was very little interest. 1 person!

I wonder if that's because people who ride bitless don't engage with dressage as they can't take part in normal competitions so don't even look at 'alternative' competitions.

 

[GoldenWillow]

You can compete bitless in a few of the online dressage sites. Some have a separate class some you compete in with bitted, they don't seem to be that well supported.

 

[Mule]

I let people compete bitless in the HHO dressage for PFK, but there was very little interest. 1 person!

That's a surprise

 

[Mule]

What does make me laugh with eventing is technically ANYONE can enter and jump round a course of solid obstacles with any horse and no real prior regulations. To be a jockey you need to pass both a fitness test and a course at the racing school. Even to get your Cat A to ride in point to points you need to go on a 2 day course to prove your capable enough.

Interesting. I suppose the risk is lower with xc as there's only one horse running.

 

[Taliesan]

As a bitless rider I do find the current rules frustrating and I often am excluded from competing as a result. I enjoy dressage and I am lucky in that I have several local venues that allow me to take part bitless. Others don't allow me to participate at all or I have to go HC. Don't even get me started on the recent FEI change to bitless rules XC.

If the wording in the rules for dressage was changed to "acceptance of the bridle" or "acceptance of the contact" then, in my mind at least, there would be much less of an issue with bitless and bitted combinations taking part in the same competitions. However, I do agree that there needs to be regulations based on which bitless bridles are allowed, just like there are for bits, to ensure a level playing field for all involved.

I can also ride my horse bridleless but I wouldn't want to do this out at a busy competition venue for the reasons cited by posters above. I'd just enter online competitions and do everything from the safety of the arena at my livery yard. That isn't to say I am not tempted to hire out a local showjumping course and give bridleless jumping a go at a proper venue, but it isn't something I'd ever do with other people around.

If the venue was set up so that you could warm up in a bridle and then go around the course / test / whatever it may be in a separate area from everyone else then I would have no problem with people going bridleless. I would hope that, no matter the equipment you use on your horse, you wouldn't go out somewhere if you were not confident in your level of control.

Sometimes I do wonder if a lot of the lack of support from bitless riders is that not many of us actually want to go out and compete. I think I am in a minority in that I like to go out and about with Jack and not just mooch about the lanes on hacks.

I do think that, although designed to be shocking, images like this do well to highlight the disparity in rules when it comes to what is allowed versus what is not.

 

[Leandy]

What does make me laugh with eventing is technically ANYONE can enter and jump round a course of solid obstacles with any horse and no real prior regulations. To be a jockey you need to pass both a fitness test and a course at the racing school. Even to get your Cat A to ride in point to points you need to go on a 2 day course to prove your capable enough.

BE has minimum eligibility requirements depending on the level. I think the risk to others is more with racing, unlike eventing, where the risk is mainly to yourself.

 

[tallyho!]

And how would that work then? The very nature of judging is to hold the results against a standard......

It seems to work in schools.. strictly come dancing... that sort of thing

 

[tallyho!]

Glad it's not just me that didn't understand that one

You’ve misunderstood what I’ve said... competition IS standardised... training is not.

 

[Cortez]

You’ve misunderstood what I’ve said... competition IS standardised... training is not.

Well, how could it be? Every horse is different, there are many, many different methods/styles/schools/goals of training some of which suit certain types of horses and indeed riders, I am struggling to understand what you are proposing here.....

 

[ycbm]

You’ve misunderstood what I’ve said... competition IS standardised... training is not.

How would you propose to do that?

.

 

[ihatework]

You’ve misunderstood what I’ve said... competition IS standardised... training is not.

What is the point you are trying to make because I’m quite confused! Although to be fair that is easily done ?

 

[Melody Grey]

amongst many others arguments, ‘training’ predominantly happens in private so I don’t know how you could standardise it compared to ‘competition’ which is usually in public, hence under public scrutiny.

 

[silv]

What really bugs me is people often saying how bitless is much kinder, when in fact there are some pretty nasty bitless bridles out there. In the wrong hands I guess a bitless bridle could cause as much pain as a bit which is only really as harsh as the rider at the other end. I think there is a long way to go, before you see it in dressage competitions, there would have to be some sort of rules and regulations as to what is allowed. I imagine some pretty nasty setups would appear. I have no idea though why you cannot compete without a noseband, I have often thought that perhaps a couple of points should be deducted from the overall score for horses wearing flash nosebands but that would be rather unpopular I imagine. People just seem to use them as a matter of course. I have lost count of the number of "Parelli Types" turning up to our riding club rides in halters with no control of their horses. They then disrupt everyone else by spinning them around at every opportunity, but then that is a whole new topic!

 

[tallyho!]

How would you propose to do that?

.

I don't know Cortez... I'm just putting it out there that it is inconsistent.

What I find most unfair is being judged against combinations who haven't trained in the most "by the book" way and I am certainly not accusing anyone here of doing that but this is one of the reasons I stopped competing.

I can't compete against people who train horses with "cheats" (by that I mean draw reins and spurs at inappropriate stages) and other "training gadgets" in order to get "the look" whilst I train with nothing of the sort and go the long way around and get nowhere.

How is that fair exactly?

 

[SpottyMare]

Is that one of Marilyn Little's horses in all the tack? She's made some interesting choices at times..

Firstly (and I haven't seen facebook) I'd be surprised if anyone is seriously advocating tackless competition riding - it's pictures of 2 extremes to highlight some inconsistency in logic in the rules. Especially when some of those rules are meant to pertain to horse welfare.

Secondly, for those who have seen riders using bitless bridles who have no control, I've seen many, many riders whose horses are bitted/tacked up to the eyeballs who have (gasp!) no control. It's a question of training, not tack.

The assumption that an out of control horse in a halter is out of control because it is in a halter is a false one - correlation does not necessarily mean causation. It's just an easy leap to make because it's an obvious deviation from the norm.

 

[Mule]

Is that one of Marilyn Little's horses in all the tack? She's made some interesting choices at times..

Firstly (and I haven't seen facebook) I'd be surprised if anyone is seriously advocating tackless competition riding - it's pictures of 2 extremes to highlight some inconsistency in logic in the rules. Especially when some of those rules are meant to pertain to horse welfare.

Secondly, for those who have seen riders using bitless bridles who have no control, I've seen many, many riders whose horses are bitted/tacked up to the eyeballs who have (gasp!) no control. It's a question of training, not tack.

The assumption that an out of control horse in a halter is out of control because it is in a halter is a false one - correlation does not necessarily mean causation. It's just an easy leap to make because it's an obvious deviation from the norm.

Marilyn Little is well known for using severe contraptions. Between those and the bloody mouths I'd wonder how much control she has on xc.

 

[ester]

The horse and rider is Rolf Gøran Bengtson on Clarimo Ask

Interestingly the meme was made by an ex hhoer a few years ago.

 

[criso]

I assume it's got shared here now because it's been popping up on facebook the last few days.

 

[ester]

yup, like many memes, they go round and find a new life for a bit.

 

[nikicb]

I don't know Cortez... I'm just putting it out there that it is inconsistent.

What I find most unfair is being judged against combinations who haven't trained in the most "by the book" way and I am certainly not accusing anyone here of doing that but this is one of the reasons I stopped competing.

I can't compete against people who train horses with "cheats" (by that I mean draw reins and spurs at inappropriate stages) and other "training gadgets" in order to get "the look" whilst I train with nothing of the sort and go the long way around and get nowhere.

How is that fair exactly?

Just talking about dressage here as that is what I am familiar with..... any decent judge worth their salt will mark down a false outline/frame etc. There are no shortcuts to get horses working properly. If 'the look' is something that is hauled in at the front and not over it's back, it won't score well as it is not correct. If you haven't already done so, spend some time writing for judges. It's great experience and you really learn what they are looking for.

 

[ycbm]

I don't know Cortez... I'm just putting it out there that it is inconsistent.

What I find most unfair is being judged against combinations who haven't trained in the most "by the book" way and I am certainly not accusing anyone here of doing that but this is one of the reasons I stopped competing.

I can't compete against people who train horses with "cheats" (by that I mean draw reins and spurs at inappropriate stages) and other "training gadgets" in order to get "the look" whilst I train with nothing of the sort and go the long way around and get nowhere.

How is that fair exactly?

It's fair because all training methods are open to everyone. Carl and Charlotte don't seem to have a problem winning with kinder methods.

If you are using training methods you are happy with but 'getting nowhere', then you've either not got the right trainer, not got the right horse, are not a good enough rider, are getting the wrong judges, or something else is going wrong.

It took me a long, long time to wake up to the fact that I get nowhere because I transmit my dislike of being judged to the horse and also because I simply don't work hard enough to succeed.

.

 

[Cortez]

I don't know Cortez... I'm just putting it out there that it is inconsistent.

What I find most unfair is being judged against combinations who haven't trained in the most "by the book" way and I am certainly not accusing anyone here of doing that but this is one of the reasons I stopped competing.

I can't compete against people who train horses with "cheats" (by that I mean draw reins and spurs at inappropriate stages) and other "training gadgets" in order to get "the look" whilst I train with nothing of the sort and go the long way around and get nowhere.

How is that fair exactly?

Ah, well you are assuming that people are beating you in competition because they are "cheating" (how do you know how they are training? Are you a judge?), whereas if the judges know their stuff, they are very unlikely to put up people whose horses are incorrect. Perhaps, just possibly, you are being beaten by better trained horses? Just putting that out there. Judges are subject to quite rigorous training themselves you know, they're quite adept at spotting incorrect training.

 

[tallyho!]

Ah, well you are assuming that people are beating you in competition because they are "cheating" (how do you know how they are training? Are you a judge?), whereas if the judges know their stuff, they are very unlikely to put up people whose horses are incorrect. Perhaps, just possibly, you are being beaten by better trained horses? Just putting that out there. Judges are subject to quite rigorous training themselves you know, they're quite adept at spotting incorrect training.

If you keep doing what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got.
Yes I am pointing the finger at training methods that I see.
Glad that you at least live in a perfect world.

I disagree with you and I guess we will just have to leave it at that. You’re entitled your opinion and I to mine. Didn’t mean to cause offence.

 

[tallyho!]

It's fair because all training methods are open to everyone. Carl and Charlotte don't seem to have a problem winning with kinder methods.

If you are using training methods you are happy with but 'getting nowhere', then you've either not got the right trainer, not got the right horse, are not a good enough rider, are getting the wrong judges, or something else is going wrong.

It took me a long, long time to wake up to the fact that I get nowhere because I transmit my dislike of being judged to the horse and also because I simply don't work hard enough to succeed.

.

I appreciate that thanks.

I still feel that unless there are ground rules in training, we will continue to see such extremes as the OP.

My opinion only.
And yes I am quite sure that I’m a lousy rider ?

 

[ycbm]

I still feel that unless there are ground rules in training, we will continue to see such extremes as the OP.

I agree with you that the are people using harsh and potentially damaging training methods to get their results. I've seen a top flight trainer put side reins on a horse (to warm it up on the lunge) that were eye wateringly short. But it's never going to be possible to enforce, and we have to live with what's possible.

There are at least three people on the forum who've shown us all that it's possible for any of us to succeed if we work hard enough, though we'll always struggle to win against horses with natural elevation.

I've got one of those, now I just have to dig up a work ethic from somewhere!

.

 

[Cortez]

I appreciate that thanks.

I still feel that unless there are ground rules in training, we will continue to see such extremes as the OP.

My opinion only.
And yes I am quite sure that I’m a lousy rider ?

But you see there ARE ground rules in training, some people don't choose to follow them and it is the judges business to sort them out, which I concede doesn't always work, but mostly our judges are pretty darn good at spotting the cheaters. We're all lousy riders, BTW - it's just a matter of degree and dedication to improve.