Should i give this loan horse back???

thatsmygirl said:
Give him a chance. I will never loan any horse again because off this " send him home attitude" sorry to sound harsh but it really winds me up. Maybe you should off had him vetted before you took him on
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I agree. You make is sound like the owner has lied to you or hidden something.

The owner is probably perfectly innocent and will be surprised too if they knew there were issues.

See what the vets says and then discuss with owner.
It may be a one of incident and the horse will be perfectly fine again.
 
With a bit of experience over the years of loaners and gone lamers whether owned by me or someone else (!). I'd say give a sensible vet the chance to give a first level diagnosis and prognosis. I assume the animal is insured so you only have an excess to pay then discuss with owner. Having said that, although I agree the 4 week trial period was reasonable for a non lame horse I would be discussinf extending the trial period for the duration of the lameness i.e how can you trial it if you cant ride it? I'd be suspicious if that wasnt considered to be reasonable.
 
thatsmygirl said:
And your the sort off person I wouldn't want to loan a horse 2.
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I think of loaning a horse as taking it on warts and all, just not paying the fee.

Whether you buy or loan a horse you should do as many checks and trials before you take it on.

Too many people think loaning a horse is the easy option, any problems send it back.

Thats just wrong.

You couldnt do that is you had bought the horse!

I know people can lie or be economical with the truth but if you did the back ground checks and trials before then you could get a good idea of the owner and their trustworthiness.
 
blucanoo1990 said:
I think of loaning a horse as taking it on warts and all, just not paying the fee.

Whether you buy or loan a horse you should do as many checks and trials before you take it on.

Too many people think loaning a horse is the easy option, any problems send it back.

Thats just wrong.

You couldnt do that is you had bought the horse!

I know people can lie or be economical with the truth but if you did the back ground checks and trials before then you could get a good idea of the owner and their trustworthiness.
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It goes both ways though - the owner can take an animal back too...so I think that for someone having a horse on loan that isn't sound or able to come sound it's a reasonable thing to send it back. I don't mean to sound harsh, but ownership is a different level of responsibility. Having said that, I treat my loan horse as well as (or possibly bette than) my own. I'm more mindful that it's "someone else's horse" so take perhaps more caution than I might do with my own. I pay every single expense pertaining to my loan horse without question or fail. I do every bit of treatment / care/exercise myself. If I feel that he's not going to do the job in which he intended, I cannot afford to keep him forever. If I owned him, and he couldn't do the job I'd want, I'd either sell, loan or PTS as necessary. I don't have that choice as he's not my own - so it's down to the owner.
 
I am sorry this has happened and sympathise greatly. I fully appreciate the stress you are under at the moment, and please ignore those people who are being unkind.
I loaned a horse off her owner for 4 years, she was kept at the owners' choice of yard as she had another horse there too so could keep an eye on me and her mare. So you could say I knew them very well, worked with the loaners' mother, we became good friends and had lots of fun together.
I got a job in another town and had to give up the mare, but told her owner if she ever needed anyone to look after her in future then let me know. The owner found someone new to loan the mare. I began riding a colleague's horse in my new town. Then one day out of the blue the owner of the mare rang me, said she was leaving home to work in a racing yard and would I take the mare. Of course I said I would love to have her and immediately found a lovely yard in which to keep her. The mare was delivered to me in a poor state and I was shocked, she was skinny, had rain scald and her shoes were hanging off her overgrown feet. The owner said the 'new loaner' had been scared to ride her and just left her in the field for days on end. Now how the owner allowed this to happen I have no clue. Anyway I was so shocked I took the mare and vowed to bring her back to health.
TO cut a long story short 3 weeks and a new set of shoes later she went lame, pulled tendon sheath probably due to the state her feet had been allowed to get into. Cue 8 months of hell, owner blaming me, me blaming myself, sleepless nights, fights with OH, horse had operation on my insurance, cost me a lot of money, I nursed her back to health, did all the box rest, walking out, cold hosing etc etc. Owner decided she didn't like the yard I kept her at (nothing wrong with it!), caused a whole load of trouble phoning round neighbouring yards behind my back (!) and eventually took back a healthy horse who was ready to be brought back into work. I think she just wanted an excuse to get her back. Mummy and Daddy had intervened with some ££££.
A month later I was appalled to see her advertised up for loan again.

I would NEVER go through what I went through with this mare ever again and wouldn't wish it on anyone. If the vet does find problems then send the horse back. If the owner has any decency they will understand. If they don't understand then pity the poor horse but you will be saving yourself a lot of trouble in future. Fair enough if 6 months down the line the horse had an injury, you would take responsibility for it but 3 weeks? I doubt very much whether the owner is being honest with you at all.
 
You've had the horse 3 weeks and he's gone lame. The options are (a) something happened to him in those 3 weeks or (b) he has always had problems that the owner hasn't told you about. As you didn't have him vetted, you are up against a wall if the owner says that you must have damaged him since you loaned him. Having said that I just loaned a horse and didn't expect the loanee to have her vetted as she's a 16yo eventer with a number of tweaks over the year and wouldn't pass a vetting, all of which I told the loanee.

But personally I would send him straight back. You're in a trial period and you are having doubts, which is the point of a trial period. Those of you complaining about the "send him back" attitude: then sell or give away your horse and it can't come back. If you loan a horse you should expect it may come back, that's the point of loaning. If my loanee no longer wanted my horse I'd have her straight back as the reason I loaned her is to know she couldn't be sold on to a rubbish home as I've had her 8yrs.
 
I have been on both sides. When I loaned my horse out I fully expected that if he were to go lame the loaner would send him back right away! Too me that is to be expected and anything different a bonus.

Personally if vet can't say oh its only xyz it will be perfectly fine in a few weeks I would send him back NOW.

Yes if you have had the loan horse a long time then it 'may be' different but even then as an owner I would not be suprised if said horse was sent back, which is why I ALWAYS pay the insurance myself!!
 
Ive had a physio out, whos told me that she thinks from his muscles, that hes been put through his paces in life and that im really going to have to look after his legs. I wasnt told this when i loaned him out!!!

Of course i will see what the vet says...everyone at my yard thinks i should send him back because of it happening this soon, perhaps meaning hes always going to be going lame!!
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The physio is not a vet, and unless they know the horses previous history should not comment on what they can't possibly know.

The lameness could be simply a knock or gravel, or of course it could be more serious - and until you've had the vet you can't possibly make a decision.

Have you told his owners that he is lame?
 
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I'm sorry, but the whole point of a loan is that you can give the horse back if it doesn't suit for whatever reason, at any time (with the appropriate notice) and likewise, the owner can ask for it back.

If you have a contract, this is in black and white. But I think it is also correct morally - if you are a 'loanee', you had the horse in the first place because, presumably you didn't want the full commitment of owning a horse and as a 'loaner' you would presumably have loaned the horse as you either couldn't bear the thought of selling it even though you couldn't afford it any longer, or wanted it back eventually. It is supposed to be a mutually beneficial agreement and both would have the best interests of the horse at heart, I'm sure but if one person isn't happy, that's the end of it.


Of course, further investigations may show that it's something that can be sorted and all's well that ends well. I do hope so.
 
I took this horse on with the idea of treating him as my own, i pay for everything, im with him twice a day and hes already made great friends with my mare and i cant bear the thought of separating them and i really do think its harsh for so many people on here to expect me to keep a lame horse that isnt my own??? Ive already got one lame horse... all i want is one i can ride!!! I really am starting to think that that is a lot to ask for!!! Hopefully it will be something small but experience tells me that if it was something small he would be feeling a little better by now....after 2 weeks rest...

and the physio is a good friend of mine that came out as a favour to see if she could find anything to help me.

fingers crossed for the vet though :)
 
i really do think its harsh for so many people on here to expect me to keep a lame horse that isnt my own
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As said earlier - until you know why it's lame, how can you possibly make a decision. Horses go lame - fact. Sometimes it's serious, sometimes it's not.

And the phyiso may be a good friend - but again, unless she know's the horses history she knows diddly squat.

Good luck with the vet.
 
I completelty empathise about having "one lame horse already" and not wanting to keep one on loan if it too is lame. I went thru exactly that, and because it was so hard to pinpoint the exact cause or reason for the new horse's lameness (had vet and farrier visit) and in the end we came to the conclusion that it's a one off type thing and see how we get on. The owner told me that he'd never been sick or sorry or lame in all her years with him, but admits that for the six months that he'd been sold and away from her care, she doesn't know what happened to him there.

I also completely agree though that you should give the vet a ring and see what they have to say. I wouldn't go with the say so of a physio. I think that doing a vetting out before taking a horse on loan may or may not be OTT, but it depends on what your terms with the loaner are. As a loanee, if you can send back then probably not necessary.

When my boy went lame some three months after getting him, I had folk suggest I send him back. I too thought having a sound horse was nigh on impossible (after the catalog of problems I had with my mare). But it was a wee minor glitch and we've not looked back since.

Vet, then decide...
 
Nigsha said:
what like? This horse has suspensory damage or kissing spine? Come on they mainly massage muscles so if they want repeat business..................
bit like the 'back' person, who usually diagnose the pelvis being out or similar, sorry call me cynical but I've heard it so many times and its been wrong so many times...
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I think perhaps you have been using the wrong physio. Mine won't even look at a horse without the say so of the vet and more to the point is highly recommended by my vet (who incidentally is an orthopaedic surgeon specialising in backs herself so I take her word for it) She also very rarely recommends a follow up call as there is never anything to find. She is very derisive herself about pelvis's being out as it as she says a made up idea and she is aware of that. I think as long as you find yourself a registered physiotherapist who actually has a degree in the subject they can be very useful individuals.

Obviously they do not replace the vet but I don't believe the OP was suggesting they did. Just that the physio had remarked on the horse having possibly been hammered in the past.

I think OP fwiw, that if it turns out to be something long term and reasonably serious that most people would forgive you for sending him back given what you have just been through with your own horse. Hopefully the vet will diagnose something minor though and everything will be fine
 
thanks, its nice to have people comment that arent trying to tear me to pieces for asking more experienced peoples opinions!!!

Ive got the vet coming out todaya nd never once have i said i would send him back without a vets opinion, nor have i said that i take my physios word as gospel, its just another idea to add to the mystery that is his lameness!!!

fingers crossed its minor, however with no improvement from 2 weeks box rest, i somehow am thinking its not going to be :(
 
Just out of interest, was the horse in regular work before you took him on? Did you do much riding before he went lame? Did the lameness appear suddenly or was it a gradual onset/worsening? Just wondering whether he may have been on bute until he came to you.
I don't like to think the worse but people can be very economical with the truth sometimes, very sad but true.
Fingers crossed that the vet has some good news for you.
 
Any news? I also have a loan pony and when he went odd last year I went through all the checks...vets, backman, saddler, dentist. I would have sent him back if I hit a dead end but thankfully he improved. Ultimately he is not yours and you can give him back without feeling guilty if things don't go to plan but I know how hard it is to actually make that decision when you really like the horse.
 
jesstickle said:
I think perhaps you have been using the wrong physio. Mine won't even look at a horse without the say so of the vet and more to the point is highly recommended by my vet (who incidentally is an orthopaedic surgeon specialising in backs herself so I take her word for it) She also very rarely recommends a follow up call as there is never anything to find. She is very derisive herself about pelvis's being out as it as she says a made up idea and she is aware of that. I think as long as you find yourself a registered physiotherapist who actually has a degree in the subject they can be very useful individuals.

Obviously they do not replace the vet but I don't believe the OP was suggesting they did. Just that the physio had remarked on the horse having possibly been hammered in the past.

I think OP fwiw, that if it turns out to be something long term and reasonably serious that most people would forgive you for sending him back given what you have just been through with your own horse. Hopefully the vet will diagnose something minor though and everything will be fine
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I dont use 'physios' personally but I'm pleased for you that you have someone you feel is good. My view is that its a human concept for an animal, but then we do like to humanise them after all. Everything I have seen done by these tyoes of practitioners is something I can easily do myself for my horses if I felt it necessary.
My main point here is that the 'physio' wouldnt have the first idea how the horse has been treated previously its all assumption and speculation but interesting it is all focused on muscular when there could be any number of other things going on which no physio could possibly diagnose..... they wont tell you this though will they?
 
How is it humanising a horse???

Physio is just keeping muscles in good condition. Muscles and other soft tissues can take longer to heal than bones after damage and can show signs of previous damage or wear and tear to someone who looks at and feels horse muscles day in day out. I have respect for equine physios and although i wouldn't get them out for no apparent reason, if i knew there was a muscular problem then i would get them out (-after- a vet!)

I don't see how it's any different from doctors referring humans to someone who is more specialised in a certain area. After all the basic mechanics of bones, muscles etc work the same in most mammals. Just in a different order/ configuration ;)

Vets are wonderful people, as are GPs but everyone has an area they know more about, and trained physios have studied and experienced this particular area in more depth. That's why they are called Experts.

ETS: OP hope it's something minor. Just to reassure you, my share horse is a drama queen and was lame for months from a bruised sole. He was quite lame on it for a couple of weeks without much improvement and we feared the worst until the farrier (an expert in his field who would not be so quickly dismissed) came and pointed out the bruise to us after trimming. Not that we hadn't looked, but we didn't know what we were looking for. Saved us a vet trip anyway.

If it's something long term then you are well within your rights to send him back. I don't think many people could afford to keep a loan horse bought to ride when it's lame.
 
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somethingorother said:
How is it humanising a horse???

Physio is just keeping muscles in good condition. Muscles and other soft tissues can take longer to heal than bones after damage and can show signs of previous damage or wear and tear to someone who looks at and feels horse muscles day in day out. I have respect for equine physios and although i wouldn't get them out for no apparent reason, if i knew there was a muscular problem then i would get them out (-after- a vet!)

I don't see how it's any different from doctors referring humans to someone who is more specialised in a certain area. After all the basic mechanics of bones, muscles etc work the same in most mamals. Just in a different order/ configuration ;)
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Thank you. You would think it was a difficult concept that sometimes the vet might not know what's going on and refer you to someone else!

A physiotherapist with a degree and a specialisation in equines has spent nearly as long training as a vet. I think people completely fail to understand the difference between a qualified professional physiotherapist and the 'back man'

Surely taking x rays, bone scintigrahpy and any other technique originally developed for humans and now used on a horse is 'humanising' the horse too by this definition.
 
Ive had the vet out...bad news. He is really lame behind, flexion tests made him look ten times worse and theres inflammation around the stifle. The vet thinks its arthritis :( hes really sore through his neck and lame in front too, could be from behind but not one hundred percent sure.

Ive rang the owner, she says ive got to keep him a month as was written in the contract. Fair enough. But i think he goes back. Hes never going to be the hunter/jumper i wanted him to be.

Im going to give him one more week before i make my mind up for sure...just to see if it is an injury... but the vet says if it is an injury im looking at a tendon or ligament.

Poor boy :( he doesnt deserve all this!

The owner says hes been in really heavy work up until this summer, turns out my physio was right ;)
 
Ah, I'm really sorry you didn't get the news you wanted hon.

Sounds like the owner may have been turning a blind eye to some of that as I doubt he's deteriorated that much in three weeks that he was 100% spot on before he came to you. Just MO though before I get done for libel!

Sounds like he might be looking for a slightly easier pace of life than you are though if he's sore in as many places as your vet thinks.
 
I really would send him back now say to the owner sorry but he is coming back at weekend and take him back. If vet is right then its not going away this is not a new condition and it will get worse over time. Its unfair on you and on him as he will not be able to do what you want to do and you will resent having to pay for a horse you cant ride. I have a horse on loan who has cost me a few vets bills but for simple issues and the owner i believe did not know and we were just unlucky but this was easy condition to sort out.

Im saying this as i do have a horse with arthritis and know she is not easy to care for or keep. And like you the person i use is normally right about whats up with my horses before the vet is.
 
It is a shame that it's not worked out this time, but at least it came up sooner rather than later and as it's a loan you don't have the problem of being stuck with a lame horse. Also you can't be blamed really, since it showed up so soon into the loan which is a good thing, some owners will try to pin the blame on others.

At least now you know he's not what you need, and can look for something more suitable and happy and able to do the work you want. I think if it's in the contract then it's fair to keep him til the month is up (only a couple of weeks, right?) so his owner has time to make sure everything is ready for him. I would arrange a time and date now though so it is clear to them.
 
blucanoo1990 said:
Too many people think loaning a horse is the easy option, any problems send it back.

Thats just wrong.

You couldnt do that is you had bought the horse!
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Well yes, that's generally the difference. If the horse's owner doesn't want the horse to be sent back if there are problems, they should sell and not loan ;)

Samantha008 said:
Ive had the vet out...bad news. He is really lame behind, flexion tests made him look ten times worse and theres inflammation around the stifle. The vet thinks its arthritis :( hes really sore through his neck and lame in front too, could be from behind but not one hundred percent sure.

Ive rang the owner, she says ive got to keep him a month as was written in the contract. Fair enough. But i think he goes back. Hes never going to be the hunter/jumper i wanted him to be.

Im going to give him one more week before i make my mind up for sure...just to see if it is an injury... but the vet says if it is an injury im looking at a tendon or ligament.

Poor boy :( he doesnt deserve all this!

The owner says hes been in really heavy work up until this summer, turns out my physio was right ;)
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Sorry to hear its not good news. I think its right to send him back as he is clearly not going to be fit for the purpose you want him for. Even if its a tendon or ligament injury that's a long period of time for recovery, and depending on vet's advice, I wouldn't have thought the horse would end up suitable for hunting and jumping.

Wasn't the 4 weeks at the beginning of the loan period so that you could send him back without another month's notice? Or have I read that wrong and you just have to keep him until a full 4 weeks have passed since you acquired him?
 
its a day over the 4 weeks...timings eh??? i dont mind keeping him for a month. hes a lovely horse to be around and id have to pay to keep the stable anyway. his owner is trying everything to get me to keep him, bless her, i feel so awful. glad you all think its the right thing to do :(
 
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