Should I have said no?

Thanks Hattie - for agreeing to keep the name private.

Look this is my fault everyone, so please let's not get into any unpleastantness over it. I shouldn't have given any details about this mare's record. I just wanted you all to understand why I might have felt that Tobago was not 'worthy' of her - to explain that she really is at the very top of her field. It was stupid and careless of me to do this when there might be people reading who could guess the mare's identity.

Hattie understands that some people - especially those with well-known international competition horses - don't necessarily want everyone to know about their breeding plans. So at least the mare's identity will not be revealed unless the owner gives permission, and I can stop panicking!

I'm so sorry to have caused this in the first place with my stupid indiscretions.
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What problem do you refer to?
I was merely contributing to a thread which was of interest to me. Whom would I PM and why? Please read my other replies, and my reponses to questions and information freely given by Kate.
I really am not trying to start a fight, its simply that I am aware of the mares currently competing at top level endurance.
 
OK - there is no problem here. I'm sure no offence was intended, and certainly none has been taken. Just a little misunderstanding, OK?

As Hattie is a newcomer, I should just explain that there are a lot of stallion owners on here, and there is a sort of tacit understanding - an unwritten rule, if you like - that nothing we say about our stallions is regarded as 'promotion'. We can all talk freely about our boys, both about their successes and about their problems, without any of the usual b*tchy accusations of 'advertising', or spreading of rumours.

(This is especially true in Tobago's case, as there are virtually no Arab-breeders on here, so there is no-one to 'promote' him to - even if this were my intention, which I think everyone here will tell you it isn't!)

It really is nice to have a friendly forum where stallion owners all support and encourage each other, rather than competing and back-biting, as seems to happen on so many other horsey websites.
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Hattie, welcome to the forum.

I think Anastasia and horsenut may have been refering to you still pressing about the name of the mare by making guesses on open forum after htobago asked politely for you not to make anymore guesses and had already said she would PM you the name of the mare. I don't think they were trying to be 'catty' as you implied I think they saw it as you pressuring someone who had already given a quite acceptable answer to you query and had already said they would give you the information privately.
When reading you posts at first, they came across as if you may have a problem with htobago... which I am sure isn't the case, its the problem with the written word, sometimes it can be read differently to the tone and manner it was ment
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LLT2.........well said...........
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[ QUOTE ]
It really is nice to have a friendly forum where stallion owners all support and encourage each other, rather than competing and back-biting, as seems to happen on so many other horsey websites.

[/ QUOTE ] EXACTLY RIGHT....
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Good. We are all friends here. This was just a minor misunderstanding, and entirely my fault for giving too much detail in the first place.

I am very impressed with Hattie's knowledge of the endurance world - especially as she is not an Arab breeder! She knows much more than I do, and I'm supposed to be this clued-up Arab-person LOL!

Hattie I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot a bit - can we all 'go out and come in again' and welcome you to the forum properly? We'd all love to hear about your horses and your breeding programme (there are quite a few Trakehner breeders on here!) - could you maybe start another thread, ideally with a few photos of your horses? It would be shame for your 'introduction' to get buried in this thread.
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(Sorry if you've already done a 'hi I'm new' thread and I missed it!)

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that is why people think a lot of you htobago you seem so genuine.

and

hello and welcome to hattie seems think got off on the wrong foot
HHO lot are welcoming bunch just very protective of each other
 
Thanks horsenut - what a kind thing to say! One of the things I like about this forum is that I can be genuine - just ask numpty questions and talk about my boy's ups and downs without always having to worry about whether the 'ups' are going to be regarded as advertising or the 'downs' used to start rumours...

Getting back to the original topic - may I ask one more numpty question?

The only other times I turned down mares last year (apart from those with really glaring conformation faults - i.e. mares that should not be bred from at all) were when the breeders told me they were looking for a very calm, laid-back stallion, to counteract their mares' tendencies to be 'hot' or 'fizzy'.

In all honesty, although he is the sweetest and most affectionate horse on the planet, I could not describe Tobago as calm or laid-back. So I had to tell these breeders that he is quite excitable and fizzy, and would not therefore be a good match for their fizzy mares.

In one or two cases, I did this with considerable regret, as the mares were high-class show winners, and would have produced very beautiful foals from my boy.

But surely here I did the right thing? Please don't tell me I was wrong here as well or I'll cry, because I turned down a couple of truly stunning mares on these grounds!

Otherwise, I don't think I did anything too monumentally stupid. I did warn any breeder whose mare had Bey Shah in her pedigree that doubling-up on these genes could produce something quite 'hot', as this stallion is known for passing on this quality, even if the mare herself is a calm type. Most of these decided to go ahead, as they actually wanted more of the Bey Shah 'presence' and 'show attitiude'.

Oh, and I also warned one breeder that line-breeding to another horse in Tobago's pedigree might produce a lot of white. It turned out that she was quite happy with this - she actually likes 'lots of chrome'.

Surely any responsible stallion-owner would do all this?
 
though i am a newcomer to breeding i am a mare owner and would be more than happy to take onboard a stallion owners recommendations,in fact i would be pleased of it.

but

i would probably leave the choice up to them instead of refusing them,

saying that if the cross did produce something mad it wouldn't do his reputation much good,but i'm sure he's not that fizzy..lol..
 
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......

Surely any responsible stallion-owner would do all this?

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Yes - I think that's reasonable and sensible - and not JUST for the mare owner's sake. Your boy is still young and may become more laidback as he matures (or he may not - a lot of Arabians are quite 'hot' in the nicest possible way!) But if you take hot mares then there'll be some hot offspring around and people ALWAYS blame the stallion for these sorts of problems - even when the mare contributes more than 50% to the temperament of the foal.

You want owners to be happy with their foals and tell others about your stallion and what nice foals he produces. So you SHOULD avoid any mares who you think may produce poor advertisements on legs!

With things like colour, then it's worth mentioning - and the mare owner can decide!
 
I think you are absolutely right to warn mare owners that you cant guarentee your boy will calm a fizzy mare's temperament etc etc. If you always give a honest assessment of your boy to potential mare owners, your and his reputation will be held high and in the long term that will only do him good as a breeding stallion. SOs who proclaim their boy can fix every mare's problems soon loose face in the eyes of serious breeders. So I totally agree with JG that if you think a certain mare is not going to produce a good foal crossed with your boy, you want to avoid them. His offspring will be his adverts in the future. So I dont think you've been a numpty at all, and I wish more SOs would have your honesty.
 
Thank you watcher. Well, the nice thing is that all the breeders said they really appreciated my honesty.

But seriously - if a breeder says to you, in black and white, that they are looking for a calm, laid-back stallion, you have to be honest and tell them if your boy does not fit that description! I can't imagine that any stallion-owner would be so unscrupulous as to lie in this situation!

In those other cases, volunteering the info about the Bey Shah risks and the white issue etc., without being asked, was perhaps going a bit beyond the call of duty. I suppose breeders should really do their own pedigree research!

But again, they appreciated my giving them this info, even when, in one case, they were already aware of it and had taken it into account in their choice.

I would just feel bad if I withheld any info that might be relevant to their decision. But I'm sure that I am by no means unusual in this - I'm sure the vast majority of stallion-owners would do exactly the same.
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[ QUOTE ]
But seriously - if a breeder says to you, in black and white, that they are looking for a calm, laid-back stallion, you have to be honest and tell them if your boy does not fit that description! I can't imagine that any stallion-owner would be so unscrupulous as to lie in this situation!


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Well, they are out there, but generally you only use them once.
 
That'll be an exciting foal! I compete endurance btw so also have guessed which mare you're talking about.

I think you were totally fair in what you said the the owner, but also fair to leave it to her to decide rather than turning her away. Although Tobago isn't backed yet I know from previous posts that you intend to back and have him compete in the future - so I'm sure he will prove himself under saddle in due course.

Re the OP though it's definitely not true that almost any arab can do well at endurance. There's a definite difference in type and quality between 'showing' bred and 'performance' bred and the gulf is ever widening. There are many arab stallions out there that wouldn't be capable of walking 100 yards with a rider on board let alone complete a 100 miles in a day. The arab world is working its way towards two distinct branches of the breed - not a good thing IMO. There's a recently imported stallion called QR Marc who is causing huge controversy. I've only seen photos but his head is so dished that there is no way he could ever take in enough oxygen to perform to any decent level. But amongst many showing breeders he is the dream stallion. They are the sort who don't even think of arabs as riding horses and the only produce they sell for riding are the ones not pretty enough for showing. Being a 'ridden' prospect is a derogatory term in some arab households. But equally there are many top performing arabs - a lot of the French bred ones and some of the Russians (including one of my own!) - who aren't very araby in looks at all. At first glance you might not recognise my boy as a purebred arab - only when you see him moving and doing his power trot with his flagged tail would you be 100% convinced.

All that said I think its fantastic and a step in the right direction for Tobago to cross with this top class performance mare. Hopefully the foal will grow up into not only a beautiful arab but one who can back up the beauty with physical ability. My own ambition is to breed arabs who are very typy but also brilliant performers and to prove the two things aren't mutually exclusive because after all the arab was the first and oldest performance horse.
 
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I can't imagine that any stallion-owner would be so unscrupulous as to lie in this situation!


[/ QUOTE ]

I know more than a few who would - and do - regularly!! But it's a bit of a giveaway when mare owners go to view the stallion and they're not allowed into the stable at all - or at least not until the Chifney is on!
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My bloke is so laidback that we take folk into his stable, lead him out on a headcollar - and offer them a ride on him! And when my rider demonstrates his paces under saddle, his 'party trick' is to remove the saddle, hand it to me, and continue riding him bareback (without dismounting to unsaddle!)
 
Thanks JG and volatis!

I am rather relieved that you all seem to think I did the right thing with the temperament question, etc. I really would be kicking myself now if you told me I'd lost those mares through over-scrupulousness, as I did with the endurance mares.

Temperament is always rather more of a tricky question than, say, conformation, isn't it? One friend (not on here) has just told me that I was stupid to tell those breeders that Tobago is fizzy, as he might well become less so as he matures.

But as JG points out, it is equally possible that he won't. He has those hot genes from the American 'show' bloodlines. And ironically his pizazz and presence are among the reasons why several breeders chose him - quite a few Arab-breeders want to add a bit of fizz and flash and sparkle, especially as these are essential for in-hand show success nowadays.

It just makes more sense to be honest about these things. I'm pants at lying anyway - I go bright red and muddle my words up.
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I'm not totally naive, though. I do know that some stallion-owners tell complete porkies about their boys - I've seen them do it. But I believe they are a small minority, and that most of us are honest, for our own sake as much as the breeders'.
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Thanks gedenski! I'm very excited about this foal too! (And now that you have guessed the mummy, I'm even more embarrassed about revealing those details.
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)

I have met some of the kind of show-Arab breeders you are talking about. You are right - they use the term 'riding horse' as an insult, meaning an Arab that is not typey/pretty enough for the in-hand show ring!
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But there are also many breeders who are aiming for exactly the ideal you describe: an Arab that is beautiful and typey and flashy enough to win at top level in hand, but also well-conformed and athletic and sane enough to excel under saddle. (That's what Tobago's breeders were trying to achieve - although of course he has yet to prove that they got the second part right!)

I applaud your ambition to breed more such Arabs! I do think that a good Arab should be instantly recognisable as an Arab, even when just standing grazing in a field. That is what 'type' means, and type is important. I do not like the French racing Arabs, who have lost virtually all Arab type and look like TBs. (Nothing wrong with TBs, but the TB already exists: there is no need to re-create it; this is like re-inventing the wheel.)

I suppose what I'm saying is please don't dismiss all 'show-Arabs', just because some show-breeders are producing spindly useless rubbish. There are still plenty who have the same aims as us - to breed Arabs that are both typey and athletic.
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[ QUOTE ]
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I can't imagine that any stallion-owner would be so unscrupulous as to lie in this situation!


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I know more than a few who would - and do - regularly!! But it's a bit of a giveaway when mare owners go to view the stallion and they're not allowed into the stable at all - or at least not until the Chifney is on!
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My bloke is so laidback that we take folk into his stable, lead him out on a headcollar - and offer them a ride on him! And when my rider demonstrates his paces under saddle, his 'party trick' is to remove the saddle, hand it to me, and continue riding him bareback (without dismounting to unsaddle!)

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I know that some SOs tell porkies in general terms when talking about their stallions, but do you think they would really tell a lie when asked a direct question such as "Is your stallion very calm and laid-back?" Surely most people would find it very hard to lie in this situation?

As you say, the breeder has only to go and visit the stallion to discover the truth! So it would be downright stupid to lie, as well as immoral!

Your chap sounds utterly adorable - I'd love to meet him sometime! Do you really offer breeders pony-rides on him when they come to view him? How lovely. I'm sure mare-owners must find it hard to resist a stallion they've actually had a ride on!
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[ QUOTE ]

I know that some SOs tell porkies in general terms when talking about their stallions, but do you think they would really tell a lie when asked a direct question such as "Is your stallion very calm and laid-back?" Surely most people would find it very hard to lie in this situation?

As you say, the breeder has only to go and visit the stallion to discover the truth! So it would be downright stupid to lie, as well as immoral!

Your chap sounds utterly adorable - I'd love to meet him sometime! Do you really offer breeders pony-rides on him when they come to view him? How lovely. I'm sure mare-owners must find it hard to resist a stallion they've actually had a ride on!
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Well, temperament is relative, isn't it. A lot of people think a stallion is ALWAYS a bit - shall we say - stallion-like! As he lunges for an arm, they say: "Well he IS a stallion, you know!"

When I ask people if they'd like a ride on Raj they say - "Oooh - I've never ridden a stallion - is he alright" or "How should I ride a stallion?" (with your bum in the saddle like any other horse!
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) A lot don't take up the offer - some do. After they've got past the "Isn't he HUGE" bit, they're amazed to find that he's very easy!

And you'd be very welcome to come and see him - and ride him! He LOVES visitors - as long as they bring Polos or carrots - preferably both!
 
Goodness, you were absolutely right to say yes, as has been said, the mare owner is not stupid, and will have done a great deal of research into your stallion, and quite obviously wanted him, congratulations, may many more ''highpowered''mares come your way.
 
I agree with everyone. Mare owners are not idiots - they do check lots of stallions and the choice they make in the end is very much discussed and considered I'd imagine.

As for stallion owners lying about their stallion's demeanor, well once again I can't imagine any mare owner would not notice if the stallion was not as quiet as proclaimed.

Best of luck with your breeding season next year.
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Oh dear - I do hope nobody thinks I was questioning the intelligence of the mare-owner! That was really not my intention!
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It is of course possible for even the smartest mare-owners to be somewhat dazzled or 'blinded by beauty' as someone put it earlier in this thread - but in this case she had clearly done her research and was very sure about what she wanted.

In fact, now I think about it, it is probably the most intelligent, experienced and knowledgeable breeders/mare-owners who can see the athletic 'potential' in a very young stallion - and who have the confidence to follow their own judgement in these matters, rather than going for a more obvious proven performer.

For example: one of the leading Arab-racehorse trainers (3rd in the trainers' league) came to see Tobago last year, and after watching him loose in the sand-school for 5 minutes, immediately booked one of her best racing mares to him for 2008 - despite the fact that he has never raced and does not have any of the modern racing bloodlines!
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Apart from one "Oh golly - are you sure?", I didn't hestitate in accepting this mare - the sharp-eyed trainer was so clearly an expert judge of 'potential', and it would have been downright rude to question her decision.

Actually this is an interesting general question - how many of you on here would trust your own judgement enough to use a very young, unbacked stallion, with a v good in-hand show record, but no performance record?
 
I bred a top-notch foal this year from my young stallion
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. The foal is truly exquisite; she has amazing bloodlines from my superb mare, her mother; and has incredibly rare bloodlines from her father..... and I believe she will be perfect for the job she will do.

I was absolutely confident of the quality of the offspring between my stallion and my mare, and I was not in the slightest disappointed
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I also bred our beloved British pony to him - a real indulgence and this foal is much loved and wonderful in every way, even if she is going to be a bit smaller than we had expected
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