Should I just give up?

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Imonone

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I have an adorable gelding, he is lovely boy in everyway and a great allrounder. However my bent is dressage. Ive had him since he was backed and he has come on well. He is supple, forward and has good paces.

However he has always been difficult to the contact. In a loose ring or anything with a lozenge / link he drops behind it and is not even down each rein and so difficult to keep straight and forward.

He is now in a rubber eggbutt which he takes forward and will take a contact down both reins, but it is still inconsistent.

He was better last winter after a lot of work but after a break due to my job he has now come back into work and it seems we are back to square one. He fights me and pulls me around as i am quite small for him, not in a nasty way but argumentative. He can do some lovely work and despite this we are never unplaced when we go out and do a test.

Can anyone suggest something I havent tried. Ive just backed my 4 year old and he is wonderful in comparison, quiet mouth, soft and forward, it making me want to just ride the 4yo now.

Should I just give up, accept him for what he is and maybe sell him to a home that will want him for all his good qualities, a nice, kind allrounder?

All suggestions gratefully recieved
 
What is he resisting? Pressure from your hands or your legs? What is his mouth conformation like? May be worth talking to his dentist about what shape of mouthpiece would suit your boys mouth.

Have you tried him bit less?

As long as there is nothing physically wrong with him, he should be able to work correctly, it's just a case of trial and error!

If he is being rude about contact you can either drop the reins completely and trot round in a circle and then pick up the contact again, or you can be rude back to him, not nasty, but insist that he must keep his head still by giving him a firm contact to work into (make sure you keep your legs on!) mine sometimes needs telling to shut up and stop being rude, he may have a 30 second strop but then settles down to work!!
 
Thank you for your thoughts DTE.

Definitely resisting the hand. He will work beautifully long and low but as soon as you pick him up he starts to gob!

No issues physically and dentist cant see any problems in the mouth. If I drop the reins or let him have a longer one he is happy and will toodle round all day. As soon as I want more of a contact he says 'I dont think so!'. Its so frustrating.

I am very small for him and he knows he can pull me around. In side reins on the lunge he is so much better but Im struggling to achieve this consistently ridden.
 
I would get someone new to check his teeth. Then I would be looking at something like a Hippus. It has taken years to get my horse good in the contact and he still has moments where he irritates the hell out of me as big moving and struggles in a 20 x 40. It's all about being incredibly disciplined and very black and white. There is no quick fix but if you like the horse it's worth perservering with.
 
Thank you both, I will google your suggestions and look into trying them.

LEC, when you say be incredibly disciplined and black and white can you tell me how you ensure this. I think I am but I am wondering now if I am just giving to him too easily and this is creating our problem. Ive certainly never had this with another horse but this one is just a little bit clever.

I do like him so he probably is worth persevering with :-) thankyou
 
How is he in a stronger bit or a double? Just to take the fight away for a bit and give him the idea of what you want. I have tried different bits with my horse I have really bad tongue issues with. After a suggestion on here I have found he is much better (although not perfect) in a happy mouth Mullen hanging cheek snaffle which I would never have considered. There are just so many bits! Mine is just lovely to ride in a double bridle but without a flash he sticks his tongue despite feeling lovely and soft.
However I am also starting to seriously consider selling him to SJ as I don't think I will ever solve his tongue issues. I don't think all partnerships work, no matter how hard you try so don't be afraid to sell if it is really not working.
 
My boy is so like yours. I felt like shoving a square peg in a round hole and just work at low level, or I have in the past, issues have stopped us competing, and I haven't forced him to comply as I felt uncomfortable doing so. If you are a serious competitor maybe not the horse for you?

I tried different types of bit but he was having none of it. Other people rode him and got a good outline but made him look very tense. He had dentist, saddler, chiro etc made no difference. I think he found it difficult and wasn't going to play ball.

Maybe your horse has a conformation that makes it difficult for him?
 
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I had this issue with my late mare. Tried everything, different people riding, lessons, she was just the same.
Then I stumbled on a new dressage lady and she completely transformed us. We went from 58% to 76% and my mare loved it. Like LEC said I had to be totally black and white in my riding. She also liked best a thick eggbutt hollow mouth snaffle strange girl!
 
What about working in draw reins for a little while? If you are sure there is no physical cause and it's nothing you are doing, they can be really useful when used correctly.
 
Mavis007 said:
How is he in a stronger bit or a double? Just to take the fight away for a bit and give him the idea of what you want. I have tried different bits with my horse I have really bad tongue issues with. After a suggestion on here I have found he is much better (although not perfect) in a happy mouth Mullen hanging cheek snaffle which I would never have considered. There are just so many bits! Mine is just lovely to ride in a double bridle but without a flash he sticks his tongue despite feeling lovely and soft.
However I am also starting to seriously consider selling him to SJ as I don't think I will ever solve his tongue issues. I don't think all partnerships work, no matter how hard you try so don't be afraid to sell if it is really not working.
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Thankyou Mavis. I have tried him in a double but he wouldnt settle to the contact at all. I had a tongue loller many moons ago and the best bit for him was a mullen mouth. When he eventually went into a double I had to use a mullen mouth weymouth too. This one just tries to stand up in a mullen mouth snaffle.
 
Janah said:
My boy is so like yours. I felt like shoving a square peg in a round hole and just work at low level, or I have in the past, issues have stopped us competing, and I haven't forced him to comply as I felt uncomfortable doing so. If you are a serious competitor maybe not the horse for you?

I tried different types of bit but he was having none of it. Other people rode him and got a good outline but made him look very tense. He had dentist, saddler, chiro etc made no difference. I think he found it difficult and wasn't going to play ball.

Maybe your horse has a conformation that makes it difficult for him?
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I wish that were the case Janah, he is so able and has superb conformation and hindleg. When he complies he is a pleasure. It would be so much easier to give up on him if he had other issues.
 
Firewell said:
I had this issue with my late mare. Tried everything, different people riding, lessons, she was just the same.
Then I stumbled on a new dressage lady and she completely transformed us. We went from 58% to 76% and my mare loved it. Like LEC said I had to be totally black and white in my riding. She also liked best a thick eggbutt hollow mouth snaffle strange girl!
Click to expand...

I loved your grey mare Firewell!
I do have a trainer that I rate highly but he is quite new to us so I will have to see if he can help us more and transform us. I hope so.
 
ajn1610 said:
What about working in draw reins for a little while? If you are sure there is no physical cause and it's nothing you are doing, they can be really useful when used correctly.
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I did try this the other day with my reins as a back up as he would love me to let him go too deep. It was good as when he threw himself around and tried to pull me out of my seat he was just fighting himself and I could sit back and push him forward. He went beautifully when he sussed that he couldnt fight me.

I hate gadgets though and had enormous guilt pangs over using them. It was desperation really. Should I use them until he sees the light?
 
soot said:
I also have one like that - Micklem competition bridle with a soft copper losenge bit made a world of a difference!
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Thats interesting, I will have to ask around and see if I can borrow one to try. I guess with perseverance there is a key to every horse.
 
Imonone said:
I did try this the other day with my reins as a back up as he would love me to let him go too deep. It was good as when he threw himself around and tried to pull me out of my seat he was just fighting himself and I could sit back and push him forward. He went beautifully when he sussed that he couldnt fight me.

I hate gadgets though and had enormous guilt pangs over using them. It was desperation really. Should I use them until he sees the light?
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I tried for 4 years with mine doing it 'properly'. Constant lessons, tried a variety of bits and nose bands had everything checked. She went no better with other very accomplished riders and was labelled 'untrainable' by my Shouty German Dressage Guru because she'd be going along lovely and then randomly, for no apparent reason, throw all her toys out of the pram and upset herself and then you'd spend 40 minutes trying to get it back. The German said to try them, I had a couple of lessons in them to get a feel of how to use them and then rode in them for about 6 weeks, just schooling. Never looked back, it broke the habit and she's been soo much better since.
I would say if you a stuck try them you have nothing to lose.
 
Imonone said:
Thats interesting, I will have to ask around and see if I can borrow one to try. I guess with perseverance there is a key to every horse.
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Honestly I was gobsmacked by the difference. I had backed and trained my own horse, having done the same with many others, and three years later on the verge of giving up (in fact hadn't competed dressage for 10 months in pure temper tantrum frustration!). He was already in the soft bit and always had been, no flash (drop noseband) and going well in all other respects, just this damn resistance to the hand that neither myself or highly accredited trainers could understand.

And then it turned out it was subtle poll pressure all along *facepalm* . I test rode in a friend's Micklem, almost for a laugh, and within 30 minutes I had a new horse. Haven't looked back and wish I'd thought outside the box earlier!
 
Imonone said:
However he has always been difficult to the contact. In a loose ring or anything with a lozenge / link he drops behind it and is not even down each rein and so difficult to keep straight and forward.

He is now in a rubber eggbutt which he takes forward and will take a contact down both reins, but it is still inconsistent.QUOTE]

You could be describing my horse. This is him last year at his first BE - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i38VksBhQK8&list=UUmBY46fIMk4Knek17GI1b8g&index=19

Any excuse and he will avoid the contact mainly because he finds it hard and his fall back mechanism is to lift his head and tighten his neck. He is terrible for not being even in both reins.

So we have worked on the following:

- Working deep and round. He is not allowed to come up in any circumstances and has to stay where I have put him. If resists working truly into the contact you hold him and then soften when he softens and gives it to you. They learns very quickly what is good and what is bad and are rewarded for taking the bit forwards.

- Leg yeilding/shoulder In and travers. We do huge amounts of this mainly to keep the hind quarters under control and working correctly. It has helped him enormously. He has to stay deep and round which goes back to the above.

- Working him into the outside rein. Sounds obvious but I am really strict that he has to be into the outside rein and the inside rein is very soft and relaxed. It all comes from your legs - inside leg to outside hand.

- If they insist on sitting on one rein then I give it away. Its the hardest thing to do but they are not allowed to sit on one rein. I normally find tapping the neck the easiest way to do it as stops me grabbing the heavy rein and it teaches them to go into the correct rein without punishing them.

- Knowing when they need the chiro and are not just being an arse. Mine needs the chiro as he has sat on one rein now for 3 days and normally it disappears after 15 minutes schooling. It got no better after all the things I normally do and I know his teeth are find so its usually in his neck and the chiro sorts it out.

- Black and white - my horse is allowed lots of breaks to stretch his neck but I set where I want the neck even in stretching and there is always a bit of a contact. I carry all this work on out hacking and he is not allowed to hack along anyway he wants. I set where I want the neck and will often alter it from competition outline to schooling outline to relaxed. I cannot expect him to hack with no contact and then suddenly demand it the next day as I think that is really confusing for them.
Click to expand...
 
You could try 'flexi' reins? They are supposed to help with contact. Carl Hester ones are expensive, but there are other brands etc.
 
Agree completely with LEC's post. I also second the thoughts on draw reins - no need to feel guilty, if you are a small person on a large horse, who has had the physical checks done and simply needs the requirements to be made more black and white, they are *not* admitting failure - they are just another useful tool in the toolbox when used correctly (ie. only coming into action when the horse is resisting working correctly) I have found several times now that a period of several weeks schooling with the draw reins on, can just fix all those inconsistencies, and the results seem to be able to continue even once the draw reins are consigned back to the tack room. Probably best done under supervision of an instructor to start with if you are uncertain :)
 
RachelFerd said:
Agree completely with LEC's post. I also second the thoughts on draw reins - no need to feel guilty, if you are a small person on a large horse, who has had the physical checks done and simply needs the requirements to be made more black and white, they are *not* admitting failure - they are just another useful tool in the toolbox when used correctly (ie. only coming into action when the horse is resisting working correctly) I have found several times now that a period of several weeks schooling with the draw reins on, can just fix all those inconsistencies, and the results seem to be able to continue even once the draw reins are consigned back to the tack room. Probably best done under supervision of an instructor to start with if you are uncertain :)
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This and LEC

I used draw reins for 2weeks straight- including hacking, as LEC said- Black and white means same out hacking as well - more to break the habit, and have not had to use them since.
 
Hi there, I haven't read all the replies so forgive me if someone has already suggested this or it's of no help! I ride one who used to be very one sided and inconsitent in the contact. He liked to use his substantial strength against me and I struggled to keep him in the arena in canter!

A while back I had a lesson with a brilliant instructor who told me to bridge my reins and then lean back and use just my weight - no pulling through my arms - as if I was water skiing. Felt very strange at first but eventually he accepted that the contact was there and the only way it would be comfortable was if he softened himself. I literally cantered round and round on a 20m circle for a good 15 minutes but when he finally relaxed, I stopped leaning and he was even in the mouth. For the first time I really had that 'between leg and hand' feeling. The guy is now my regular instructor and he tells me to ride him like i'm pushing a shopping trolly (only with thumbs on top ;) ) The bridge ensures that he can't split my hands up and then grab one rein and it also ensures that I turn his shoulders instead of his head/neck. By just leaning back on both reins, instead of pulling you don't get numb arms as there isn't any force, your arms stay relaxed and you can keep it up for as long as needed. Now when I pick up the contact the horse comes round, I don't need to fiddle/give and retake/play with my fingers to get him round and so he is completely still in the mouth and a real pleasure to ride.

Give it a go, it really does feel weird at first and it does take time for them to relax. You musn't give in before they do and don't try to fiddle them down just sit, lean and wait. I've now tried this on a couple others that are a little funny in the mouth and it has worked a treat :)
 
You could be describing my horse. This is him last year at his first BE - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i38VksBhQK8&list=UUmBY46fIMk4Knek17GI1b8g&index=19

Any excuse and he will avoid the contact mainly because he finds it hard and his fall back mechanism is to lift his head and tighten his neck. He is terrible for not being even in both reins.

So we have worked on the following:

- Working deep and round. He is not allowed to come up in any circumstances and has to stay where I have put him. If resists working truly into the contact you hold him and then soften when he softens and gives it to you. They learns very quickly what is good and what is bad and are rewarded for taking the bit forwards.

- Leg yeilding/shoulder In and travers. We do huge amounts of this mainly to keep the hind quarters under control and working correctly. It has helped him enormously. He has to stay deep and round which goes back to the above.

- Working him into the outside rein. Sounds obvious but I am really strict that he has to be into the outside rein and the inside rein is very soft and relaxed. It all comes from your legs - inside leg to outside hand.

- If they insist on sitting on one rein then I give it away. Its the hardest thing to do but they are not allowed to sit on one rein. I normally find tapping the neck the easiest way to do it as stops me grabbing the heavy rein and it teaches them to go into the correct rein without punishing them.

- Knowing when they need the chiro and are not just being an arse. Mine needs the chiro as he has sat on one rein now for 3 days and normally it disappears after 15 minutes schooling. It got no better after all the things I normally do and I know his teeth are find so its usually in his neck and the chiro sorts it out.

- Black and white - my horse is allowed lots of breaks to stretch his neck but I set where I want the neck even in stretching and there is always a bit of a contact. I carry all this work on out hacking and he is not allowed to hack along anyway he wants. I set where I want the neck and will often alter it from competition outline to schooling outline to relaxed. I cannot expect him to hack with no contact and then suddenly demand it the next day as I think that is really confusing for them.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for taking the time to write this.

I think our problems arose when I tried taking him to a more advanced outline and he started to resist. I was being premature and he probably needed to be stronger. I will take him back to long and low I think, he is happy there and build up again. If I am stronger he just refuses to go forward at all so Im not sure thats an option. Defininately need to be more black and white and not slip my reins longer when he is being difficult.

Love your horse BTW and they are similar in so many ways.
 
Thank you to everyone for the replies and suggestions.

Lots of food for thought and above all Im relieved that Im not the only one who has had this problem and had to find a way to deal with it.

I love riding this horse and when he is good I get such a good feeling, if nothing else this thread has made me reflect on all his good qualities.
 
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