Should I PTS or Medicate?

[TheChestnutThing]

13 year old 17hh TB gelding.

Yesterday I got the vet out as my horse had a bit of cellulitis and during the exam other issues cropped up.

I always knew he had some sort of SI issue but I never knew that it was chronic until yesterday. He’s always had more of a front end and I’ve struggled with hind end muscle and top line. Vet said he looks like two different horses put together. She is right. He has arthritis in his hocks. Possible ulcers (which I can treat).
He also has sleep deprivation and yesterday fell over and whacked his head on the stable door. Vet thinks the sleep deprivation is pain related.
He is in full work and jumping newcomers (training fox), and other than being continuously disunited and struggling with lead changes, has never ever said no or shown any reluctance to work. In fact he loves to work.

14 months of owning him and he still disunites in the canter, struggles with any collection work and rushes into fences. Vet said it’s all pain related. She was there for over an hour. She was through. She was kind. We discussed investigating. We discussed maintenance. We discussed PTS. At best without all the maintenance he would be a hack. With maintenance and investigation he could still jump but he could also still end up being a hack or worse.

I’m thinking about PTS. Whilst he is still happy. If he’s in pain I don’t think it’s fair for him to be in work. Even with bute. Even with steroids. I don’t really think it’s fair to medicate a horse just so you can jump him.

I guess what I’m asking for are success stories or would you also PTS.

 

[PSD]

My previous pony was similar to this apart from the hock arthritis, we thought she had SI problems.

If it was me I would treat for the ulcers and see how you get on, you’d be surprised at how different having ulcers makes them. She used to do exactly what you’ve described, treated her ulcers and she was a different pony. Sadly lost her to laminitis a few years later.

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Certainly worth treating the ulcers before making a final decision. Would be a shame to PTS before at least doing that.

 

[throwawayaccount]

I’m sorry you’re in this position,

My mare was/is similar to your horse .. she’s retired in a field now with cartrophen injections now and then.

(If she didn’t have a weak ligament (separate issue) the vet was happy for her to continue rehab on cartrophen), however I decided not worth the risk as it stands, nor the mental anguish (for me)

 

[Landcruiser]

Would being a hack be so awful, if you could get her comfortable?

 

[ihatework]

With multiple issues Once they have become chronic the likelihood of you getting them comfortable enough to jump pain free is slim, especially without great expense and rehab skill (time!). Given diagnosis that would not be my aim.

It would seem a shame to pts but it wouldn’t necessarily be wrong.

Personally I’d aim to medicate and rehab with a view to hacking with field retirement as a back up, but I’m a bit soft.

 

[Goldenstar]

I don’t know your situation but if you pushed me to tell you what to do I would say treating ulcers in a horse with a chronic pain condition is a waste of money unless you can afford and are committed to a life time for the horse of using these expensive anti ulcer medications .
If the SI problems is chronic I think it will be very expensive to manage it will need regular injections you will also need a work up to see what else is wrong in the back end and manage all of this .
Minimally she needs X-rays and scans of her hocks to see if he has arthritic changes or damage to the suspensories .

I am not as soft as IHW .

 

[Red-1]

I am midway between IHW and Goldenstar. Some horses can have a free pass here, such as Rigs, Jay-Man and Charlie. Others cannot. I'm not sure what makes them cross the line, but some do and others don't.

Personally, I would possibly steroid injection whatever needs it now, then have as a hack if comfortable. PTS if not. But I am older and softer than I once was. I wouldn't treat the ulcers without the rest, as they will just come back.

A younger me would have PTS with so many issues. But, I was more ambitious then.

IMO, there is nothing right or wrong in either decision. Every individual circumstance is different. What I definitely would not do is sell to a low end dealer, but other than that, it is the owner who knows best.

 

[Red-1]

BTW, chronic just means long lasting.

 

[cauda equina]

How important is jumping to you?
If treatment wasn't wholly successful could you keep him as a hack, and have something else to jump?
Or would he make a nice hack for someone else?

Poor horse, sleep deprivation to the point of falling over sounds quite extreme

 

[TheChestnutThing]

How important is jumping to you?
If treatment wasn't wholly successful could you keep him as a hack, and have something else to jump?
Or would he make a nice hack for someone else?

Poor horse, sleep deprivation to the point of falling over sounds quite extreme

I would not pass on a horse with issues. But unfortunately I can’t keep a hack. I work full time in an office and barely have the time to work two in the school after work so only get to hack and compete on the weekends. It also wouldn’t be fair to him. If I could find a full loaner from my yard, then yes. But again a possible lifetime of drugs just to keep him comfortable….

 

[Andrew657]

OP - if I correctly read your post the horse needs pain relief even if not working - so this isn't a question of is it fair to medicate so they can work.

The ulcers whereas treatable are likely to reoccur unless the root cause of the pain is resolved. It's also likely that given bute/danilon effect on stomach - that medication is likely to make ulcers more likely.

So unless you are able to treat the SI issues and hock arthritis - so they don't need long term pain relief - I would seriously consider PTS. However if vet believes treatment could give you a pain-free horse which may only be able to do light work then yes I would try treatment.

 

[Snow Falcon]

Medicating a horse so it doesn't feel pain/uncomfortable when we want to ride for our pleasure? I think we need to start looking at what we are asking our animals to do.

You have discussed options with your vet, know your horse and your situation. You'll do what's best as you obviously care about him.

 

[Fransurrey]

OP - if I correctly read your post the horse needs pain relief even if not working - so this isn't a question of is it fair to medicate so they can work.

The ulcers whereas treatable are likely to reoccur unless the root cause of the pain is resolved. It's also likely that given bute/danilon effect on stomach - that medication is likely to make ulcers more likely.

So unless you are able to treat the SI issues and hock arthritis - so they don't need long term pain relief - I would seriously consider PTS. However if vet believes treatment could give you a pain-free horse which may only be able to do light work then yes I would try treatment.

I agree with all of this. I also read it that your horse is in chronic pain. I'm not sure I'd be riding him at all going forward, medication or not. The sleep deprivation and ulcers suggest that serious meds would be needed just to keep him pain free in the field. If I really couldn't keep a field ornament or gentle hack I would consider PTS to be the kindest option.

 

[Bellaboo18]

If to treat or to pts is a personal choice but there is no way he's a 'happy horse', he must be in extreme pain. He definitely shouldn't be in work.

Personally, I'd treat the ulcers and see what I was then left with.

Eta what an absolute sweetheart of a horse, you'd wonder if he'd ever say no

 

[dougpeg]

I'd probably scope for ulcers and xray the hocks to know what I'm dealing with with view to medicate. Due to the latter he is likely to be compensating with other parts of his body. If still uncomfortable I'd PTS.

 

[splashgirl45]

I wouldn’t ride if horse was on a lot of pain medication, if he could be kept comfortable for retirement I would consider it, but from what you have said I am leaning towards PTS as if a vet suggests that as an option he must be quite bad.. quality of life is paramount and it sounds like he is in pain all of the time..

 

[Melody Grey]

I’ve been in this situation a few times, some have come good, some haven’t. I think it’s all or nothing- if you’re in a position (financially and emotionally) to investigate and medicate, then do. If not, then step away and PTS- neither are a bad decision.

The ones that have come good have taken years to fully settle and muscle up correctly, but are now strong hackers/ riding club horses. I don’t at all regret the investment and am a leisure rider nowadays so no grand aspirations for them or me.

Some of the ones that didn’t come
Good were bottomless pits financially, though i learned an awful lot in the process which has probably enabled me to sort the two I now have, so a valuable experience there too.

Not an easy decision at all.

 

[Pearlsacarolsinger]

I kept a horse in retirement until she was 24, last ridden before she reached double figures but I knew that, for most of that time, she wasn't in pain while following the same routine as the others and acting as a companion. I have no problem in keeping a horse in retirement, especially now they are at home but, I would be reluctant to keep a horse with multiple problems, which needed opposing management strategies (ulcers/bute). Ime vets don't suggest pts easily.

 

[irishdraft]

Being hard headed and guessing your situation is being at livery, working full time and bought the horse to showjump at a decent level, I would probably pts. Sounds like there are various issues which probably means he won't be able to do what you want him to, even after treatment or rehab, so unless you can retire or do have a very trustworthy friend to hack then it sounds like a difficult decision will need to be taken.

 

[TheChestnutThing]

If to treat or to pts is a personal choice but there is no way he's a 'happy horse', he must be in extreme pain. He definitely shouldn't be in work.

Personally, I'd treat the ulcers and see what I was then left with.

Eta what an absolute sweetheart of a horse, you'd wonder if he'd ever say no

This is my thing. He is so genuine. Without a bad bone in his body. He adores life. He adores work. And I cannot believe that he hasn’t told me he is sore. I feel dreadful that he is so genuine that he just does it for me.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

13 year old 17hh TB gelding.

Yesterday I got the vet out as my horse had a bit of cellulitis and during the exam other issues cropped up.

I always knew he had some sort of SI issue but I never knew that it was chronic until yesterday. He’s always had more of a front end and I’ve struggled with hind end muscle and top line. Vet said he looks like two different horses put together. She is right. He has arthritis in his hocks. Possible ulcers (which I can treat).
He also has sleep deprivation and yesterday fell over and whacked his head on the stable door. Vet thinks the sleep deprivation is pain related.
He is in full work and jumping newcomers (training fox), and other than being continuously disunited and struggling with lead changes, has never ever said no or shown any reluctance to work. In fact he loves to work.

14 months of owning him and he still disunites in the canter, struggles with any collection work and rushes into fences. Vet said it’s all pain related. She was there for over an hour. She was through. She was kind. We discussed investigating. We discussed maintenance. We discussed PTS. At best without all the maintenance he would be a hack. With maintenance and investigation he could still jump but he could also still end up being a hack or worse.

I’m thinking about PTS. Whilst he is still happy. If he’s in pain I don’t think it’s fair for him to be in work. Even with bute. Even with steroids. I don’t really think it’s fair to medicate a horse just so you can jump him.

I guess what I’m asking for are success stories or would you also PTS.

Tough one, I been on at someone for months when their horse was loosing weight, squity and in discomfort. That was in March, now August finally they find he has intestinal ulcers and is on meds. He also has navicular and has his back injected too to make him comfortable. For the ulcers he has 15ml of meds am and pm 1/2 hr prior to feed


Not jumping anymore is not the b all is it, I cannot jump my mare since diagnosed with navicular. I miss it but don't want to jeopardise her wellbeing. My current mare is also is cantering disunited on certain paths when hacking.

My late mare had celulitis in her fore legs and we had to use keratex powder to get rid and she never got it again.



Personally I would stop jumping him now and forever, as for ulcers, my trainer bought some ulcer treatment from USA, £ 100 is and it arrived in 5 days, after the treatment all the symptoms went.

Nothing wrong with a hack, ok

Here is what I would do.

As I said forget jumping - put him on a strong joint supplement like Flexi Joint (with shark cartilage made my arthritic made sound)), give him say a month off off ridden work, just chilling, maybe some salt water treatment or hydro to keep him mobile. Then reassess him for comfort and get vet up again, like throw the book at him for trying to make him comfortable and happy.

Then at least you have seen if he stays comfortable, then maybe just try short hack and judge again.

 

[IrishMilo]

How did he go from being in full work and jumping Newcomers to being so sleep deprived he fell over yesterday? I'm confused by the timeline.

I'd have this poor horse put to sleep.

 

[Jambarissa]

As soon as pts seriously crosses your mind I think it's sensible to consider your reasons for not pts.

Is treatment really likely to work or is it just delaying the decision for 6 months? Is ongoing treatment feasible in your budget? Is it realistic that you could find a new home who could provide what this horse needs and do the right thing if its not working? Are you feeling too guilty to act?

Have a frank conversation with the vet. Lately our vets seem very ready to offer hope where there really is none just so that the owners can feel that they tried everything. I'm not sure it's in the best interest of the horse.

 

[SEL]

The one I knew who constantly disunited behind was also a large TB. He had hocks and SI injected and was fine for a while then started randomly bucking. He was PTS. I know the owner was glad she tried but it wasn't to be. We found out later he'd had a nasty fall in a lorry when he was still racing so perhaps there was an injury that wasn't apparent.

The decision taken to PTS is rarely taken lightly and if you need a bit more of a black & white diagnosis then a Bute trial might give you that. If you have a different horse on it then you'll know he absolutely needs the pain relief and can go from there.

I put personal ambitions on the back burner because I couldn't afford horses who were physically capable of doing what I wanted (livery for 3 broken ones pretty much killed me!) but I fully appreciate not everyone can do that - plus not lying down to sleep has always been one of my 'lines in the sand' for the PTS decision.

 

[TheChestnutThing]

How did he go from being in full work and jumping Newcomers to being so sleep deprived he fell over yesterday? I'm confused by the timeline.

I'd have this poor horse put to sleep.

He’s still in full work. (Well he was until yesterday). It’s not the first time he’s fallen over whilst sleeping on his feet. He’s done it a few times and I was advised to keep an eye on it. Which I did.

 

[Hormonal Filly]

14 months of owning him and he still disunites in the canter, struggles with any collection work and rushes into fences.

This is my thing. He is so genuine. Without a bad bone in his body. He adores life. He adores work. And I cannot believe that he hasn’t told me he is sore. I feel dreadful that he is so genuine that he just does it for me.

Disuniting in canter and struggling with any collection work is him telling you he’s sore.

He sounds a real genuine dude, to still jump at that height while sleep deprived and uncomfortable.
Sometimes better the devil you know, I’d inject and treat the ulcers. I’d want to try before PTS, depending if he was insured, but I’m also a bit soft now!

 

[Bellaboo18]

This is my thing. He is so genuine. Without a bad bone in his body. He adores life. He adores work. And I cannot believe that he hasn’t told me he is sore. I feel dreadful that he is so genuine that he just does it for me.

Sorry but I think he has been telling you.

14 months of owning him and he still disunites in the canter, struggles with any collection work and rushes into fences.
He also has sleep deprivation and yesterday fell over and whacked his head on the stable door.

I'm putting this is the column of reasons we shouldn't ride horses.

Eta. I think it's common to miss read what theyre saying to us. Do you think he rushes in to fences because he's excited? I'd say he's rushing and panicking because of how much it hurts.

 

[Squeak]

Disuniting in canter and struggling with any collection work is him telling you he’s sore.

He sounds a real genuine dude, to still jump at that height while sleep deprived and uncomfortable.
Sometimes better the devil you know, I’d inject and treat the ulcers. I’d want to try before PTS, depending if he was insured, but I’m also a bit soft now!

I'd be the same too. Some horses do really well on the injections.

 

[Barton Bounty]

I would do whatever I could before PTS because you might find someone like me who would be willing to take him on as a hack