Should I send this horse to a pro? *videos*

charlimouse

charlimouse

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Bit of backgound - Betty is a 16.2, rising 6yo, by Jumbo (full sister to Henry Tankerville and Brief Encounter). I bought her just over 6 months ago. She was backed about a year ago. When I saw her she was a bit naughty about jumping fillers, but I didn't get chance to try her as I was at an auction :o! Needless to say as she hadn't shown herself off in the best light I got her pretty cheap for what she is ;)!

So since I have had her I have been trying to iron out the jumping/going near fillers issue she seems to have, but to cut a long story short I don't feel like I have got anywhere :(. I never let her get away with being naughty, but at the same time there is no point me taking her out to any competitions as she will get eliminated. I have taken her out to clear round days, and after a bit of a battle at every fence with a filler she does jump round fine, but it is this initial battle which is the issue. She can also be naughty even after she has jumped a fence a few times (as you will see in the videos :o).

At the moment I just feel completly stuck. I take her for lessons every week and I have recently been focusing on her jumping, but we are still having the same issues, and whilst not getting worse they are not getting better :(.

So here are some videos of her jumping at home today, they are in the order they were filmed, so as you can see just because she has jumped the fence doesn't mean she will do it again :o:

Warming up trotting across the diagonal past a fence with a filler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VpgI73ur1g

First time over the water tray

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd8nIm9VOjA

Over the cones

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctjzdMblnFU

Water tray to the cones

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kF_PWnHsscI

Cones to water tray

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06zX0Agb30

Water tray (please excuse the finger!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI5Oqnb8eak

First time over the paint splat fillers - I am aware I should probably have turned away, but that seems to make her worse :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1tSlea7_4c

V filler to paint splats (she had already had an argument about the v filler, but I didn't manage to get it on video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSAYkxbbzW0

V filler to paint splats

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FPcrQPNo8g

Putting together a little course

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiqidIa51XQ

Course again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNUWhy_YmWc

This is just trotting round at the end after we had finished jumping

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OG_etLCompE


So what do you think? She is a big horse for me, and I have tried the smacking route, and she chucked me on the floor............4 times :o:eek:! So not particularly willing to try that approach again! She has had back, teeth, tack etc all checked, and everything is fine.

I am debating weather to send her to a pro, as she is insanely talented (she has jumped out of that arena from a walk :eek:!), but I just can't get over this problem, and now beacuse I am expecting problems at fillers I think I am riding defensively, and not forwards enough. So would a pro be able to get on with it and sort her out? I also worry that if I sent her to a Pro (especially a man) she would become a pro's horse, and TBH in an ideal world I would love to ride and compete her!

Got half a Vienatta left if you have any bright ideas!
 
I'll go first and be completely honest and say yes I think you should. She is one the the nicest horses I have seen in a long time and looks to be seriously talented.

If you are confident that she has no medical or saddle issues then she looks as though she is taking the p and knows she is bigger than you are. No matter how much you love her if you don't feel confident she will pick up on that which will either worry her or make her sharper.

Why not send her to a pro who is, say, a small female and after a month or so you start having lessons there with her? From the videos I watched she is worth the work :)
 
I agree with measles - she doesn't look scared, more that she is just taking the pee - and perhaps a very stickable, very confident pro would be able to push through the stroppiness and get her out of the habit.

I think its certainly worth a try as she obviously has plenty of ability.

I hope she comes right for you.
 
Firstly crikey she looks like she COULD be amazing! However whether she ever will have the attitude for the job I am really not 100% sure :confused:

Have you taken her XC schooling yet? I cannot pretend to have enough experience eventing wise to know if a horse that is that spooky at 6 will ever be brave enough XC... She has all the jump in the world but they have to want to do it with you as in a battle of strength there is only one winner. She is being very, very naughty in those vids and don't think I have come across one quite that determinedly naughty to say if they can come good!

As for sending to a pro - do you have any ideas as to who? My thoughts are exactly the same as yours in that if you send her to anyone too big or strong she may never be rideable again for you afterwards.

So no real bright ideas I'm afraid. The one thing is that if you have given it 6 months and knowing that you ride full time she does not seem to have progressed as far as you'd like and in another 6 months you may still see very little difference so maybe now is the time to bite the bullet and try something different and get some good feedback on her from some more experienced people.
 
Lovely horse.

I will go against the grain here, there are some professional male riders that can hand horses back to ladies to compete. OH is an instructor, who rides and schools his clients horses. He has schooled several horses for ladies who have gone on to compete them themselves. I ride his horses, 17.1, and 18.2 plus, I am no where near as big, or any where near his standard of riding. He had a few words with my lad today, first time he has had to sit on him for 2 years, sorted the problem out that was beyond my experience and handed rat bag horse back to me, who was a changed creature (still trying to come to terms with being beaten by the little git, but that's another story!)

Good luck, hope you can get her sorted.
 
Thanks for the responses. You have all said pretty much what I think, but wanted some fresh eyes to have a look (iygwim!). Any ideas on who I should send her to? Preferably in yorkshire area (im between York and Leeds).
 
Sue Chadwick might suit as in she is not too big and heavy plus she can and will sit on anything and can sort them out.
 
measles said:
I'll go first and be completely honest and say yes I think you should. She is one the the nicest horses I have seen in a long time and looks to be seriously talented.

If you are confident that she has no medical or saddle issues then she looks as though she is taking the p and knows she is bigger than you are. No matter how much you love her if you don't feel confident she will pick up on that which will either worry her or make her sharper.

Why not send her to a pro who is, say, a small female and after a month or so you start having lessons there with her? From the videos I watched she is worth the work :)
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This.

Although I'd also agree that there are big, strong people quite able to make horses for smaller people to ride. It may, in fact, be that she NEEDS a big strong rider but you're know where near knowing that yet and won't be until she gets her butt in gear and starts doing the job.

At the very least, it's worth getting another opinion.

One option is just to go to a local event and watch people ride (I'm assuming that's what you want her for, but even if not a more "event approach" might work for her at this point) then approach anyone who looks like someone you'd be happy to do business with. She's a lovely horse and well bred - most pros would be interested in trying with her.
 
If you send her to the right pro, and they know the end game is for you to ride her, then they will produce her accordingly. I would not panic about someone taller and heavier meaning you then can't ride her, my personal experience of this is sending a horse to someone about a foot taller than me who sorted all the issues, got to grips with the horse, and is now teaching me to ride him again. It's taken a while but we're back jumping in training at 1m with a few 1.10 oxers scattered in for good measure and it's going well. I will say though, pick someone you like, trust and want to have lessons with afterwards. It is invaluable having that insider knowledge from someone who's sat on the horse because what you can see isn't always the same as what you feel or how the horse likes to be ridden. For example, it looks like I don't ride my horse nearly forwards enough now - but that's how he likes to be ridden to a fence and how he jumps best - if othe trainers see us, they try and get me to ride him more forwards and it all goes wrong - so you need to find someone to work with long term I'd say.
 
Lovely horse, I can see why you want to get it sorted!!. I would definitely say she is taking the "P" , not frightened......when you got her up to the splat filler 1st time, she stuck her head straight over the other side with her ears pricked.....she wasn't even looking at the filler itself!!!

When looking for someone to help, I think SC's suggestion is a very good one. The only thing I would add, is try to find somone who will do it from a strong leg, not resorting to the stick too often, as I suspect that could create more of a problem.

Because she is a bit big for you, she can very easily drop behind your leg, leaving you slightly in front of the movement, & then she has "got you"! Naughty girl!!.I suspect that because she has such nice paces, it feels as tho' she is moving forward under you, & then she "escapes". In the meantime, while you look for somone to help, try slowing the trot a little, concentrating on getting her in front of the leg, not dropping out behind you, & jump from that slow, powered up trot,with your hands slightly wider than normal.

Don't give up....there is a good chance of a lovely horse in there!!!.
 
Hi there

I think she is a stunning, obviously very talented horse. Whether she is the perfect horse for you is a different matter. You're obviously a competent rider, but maybe in this case you're slightly out of your depth?

I would definitely send her to a professional if I was in your shoes. Someone who comes through personal recommendation and is good with 1) mares 2) quirky horses.

See how that goes and what they think - give them a reasonable amount of time to get her going (at least a month/six weeks). At the end of the day you might be better off selling her as a 'professional's' ride, and buying yourself something more straightforward.

Good luck!
 
I agree with the others that she is taking the P and if you feel that you are at the end of your tether then yes send her to a pro for a month. I don't think it matters whether its male or female or the level of strength. You just want someone who has experience of dealing with these issues and is going to be very confident and assertive.

I think you ride her very well and are very calm and do very well to keep your patience - the only thing i would add is that you could perhaps be a bit more assertive and really ride forward to the fence. I totally understand why you are jumping from trot as it gives you more time to catch her, but have you tried cantering her to the fences in an assertive bouncy canter? My mare is horrendously spooky and if i show her the fences first and trot to them, then she is ten times worse. If i just stick her straight into canter, get her moving forward from my leg and then back and then forward and then send her straight over the fence, she jumps them first time. Just something else to try if you haven't already?
 
I really like her, she's exactly what I am looking for at the moment! Slightly off topic but do you mind me asking which auction you got her from? Pm if you'd rather.
 
Yep. I agree with the others. From the very first video, you are far too polite and passive, she is taking the piss and needs to be made to knuckle down BUT I would definitely be careful where you send her because she looks like a clever cookie and she doesn't look like the type that will do well for having a pasting, she needs someone to outsmart her and keep her brain sweet but occupied.
Good Luck
 
Does she do the same cross country schooling? Just interested in whether there is a different mentality from you both? I found I rode very differently doing xc to sjing on a horse who was spooky with fillers and it made a huge difference to how they went.
 
What a lovely mare. And you ride her well, you're just in that passive "let's not upset her" mode. At the end of the day, there's a happy medium between doing nothing and doing enough to make her drop you. It's really hard to find, but knowing how to discipline her is imperative.

I agree with others that you need help, but is sending her away going to solve the problem? In the long term? If you're serious about keeping the ride on her, you're going to need to learn how to deal with her testing you. A pro might help in the medium term, but when she finds the next major boundary push are you going to have to send her away again? What if she needs a month or two off, do you send her off to be rebacked or will you be able to bring her back into work when she's likely to push the boundaries? If you send her away, what will your confidence be in your ability to manage her? If these aren't likely to be a problem, then sending her away might be the perfect solution.

For me and my confidence issues I need to know how to solve the problem, so I'd want to go to boot camp with her. I've had a boot camp where the instructor rode the horse for 30 minutes in the morning and I'd have a lesson in the afternoon (horse over fitness wasn't a problem, the fatty :p) but what works best for me is daily lessons for a few weeks with the instructor just hopping on for the worst bits. Takes longer but then I feel that I can do anything I want. I tend to have relatively easy horses though!

Best of luck with your decision.
 
Going against the grain here, no I dont think you should send her to a pro!!

I think you just need to go and have lessons with the *right person* & they will teach you techniques & show you exactly how to sort out this sort of behaviour.

I think you are more than capable and more than good enough to sort this out yourself, just need to find out the best technique for sorting this.

It will be so much better for your partnership in the long run if you can be the one to sort out this particular issue- as you will trust yourself more, have more confidence & in turn she will trust you & knuckle down & do what she's supposed to do.

If a pro rider sorts her out then she may well go on & be good for you 95% of the time but you might still have the odd cheeky moment where she knows that she can take the P if she wants to. If you sort the problem out yourself, & in such a way so that she knows she cant do it ever again, then you'll cement a much stronger partnership. If someone else sorts her out, when you start competing her yourself, I can just imagine you guys getting to a brightly coloured/odd fence in the middle of an XC and her going ' oh no thanks!"

I'm sure the right trainer can help you!
 
I hate to say this and I am waiting to be shot down in flames ,but have you considered that she has already been through professional hands.
The fact that you picked her up cheap with her breeding would suggest to me there may be an inherent problem with her .AN normally buys anything related to Henry Tankerville .If you suspect this is the case I think sending her to a pro would be a total waste of your money.
I am sorry to be blunt but if I had bought her cheap from an auction ,I would straight away have been looking for a problem.
 
seabsicuit2 said:
Going against the grain here, no I dont think you should send her to a pro!!

I think you just need to go and have lessons with the *right person* & they will teach you techniques & show you exactly how to sort out this sort of behaviour.

I think you are more than capable and more than good enough to sort this out yourself, just need to find out the best technique for sorting this.

It will be so much better for your partnership in the long run if you can be the one to sort out this particular issue- as you will trust yourself more, have more confidence & in turn she will trust you & knuckle down & do what she's supposed to do.

If a pro rider sorts her out then she may well go on & be good for you 95% of the time but you might still have the odd cheeky moment where she knows that she can take the P if she wants to. If you sort the problem out yourself, & in such a way so that she knows she cant do it ever again, then you'll cement a much stronger partnership. If someone else sorts her out, when you start competing her yourself, I can just imagine you guys getting to a brightly coloured/odd fence in the middle of an XC and her going ' oh no thanks!"

I'm sure the right trainer can help you!
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This..... also, I think I heard something on one of the clips that was your instructor saying something to the effect of "just because she's done the jump nicely now, don't trust her to do it again" - I wonder, therefore, how your mindset is doing (i.e. so are you actually expecting the run-outs/ spookyness) - and whether, even if she went off to a pro, unless you changed your mindset, the problem wouldn't just reappear when she came home. I know very well how hard it can be to change your mindset once you're used to a horse putting in spooks/ run-outs, etc, but imho unless you can then your partnership is going to struggle. Maybe some NLP help on your part wouldn't go amiss? (not saying that would be the total solution at all but may help?).

Also, I know someone has already asked above what else you're doing, but it's a really good point... maybe it wouldn't hurt to make sure she's doing other things/ having a bit of fun, even leave the SJ for a bit and then come back to it? Maybe fund a buddy to go out XC practice with and get her brain locking onto those jumps a bit more so you don't always have to question whether she'll do it or not, you'll know she's locked on?
 
I watched all the vids before I read the replies. I must say I agree with most of the replies. I dont see any "filler fear" in your horse at all. I think sheis taking the PEE. You look confident enough to sit through her little moments, but I think you need to be much more active in the way you ride to get her active, to take on the jumps.

I love your horse BTW. I think she looks great, and seriously talented (potentially).
 
I really like her, and she remonds me HUGELY of my mare. However, mine has always had the want to get to the otherside of the fence!

I know it's difficult when they are throwing their toys out the pram, but one thing that struck me is everytime she spun away, she was allowed to continue going the way she wanted to. I would stop her as early as possible, turn her back the way she had come (the opposite way she had spun) and ask her forward. If she stops dead at a fence, rein her back, and then ask her forward. If she ignores you when asking her to go forward, rein her back some more, until she is responding to YOU.

I think she has scared you a bit, and she has realised this, so does go "shan't". You may need a pro to break to behaviour cycle, and getting her going again just so you have the confidence to send her on and get on with it again. However, she doesn't want to go to a pro for "making" to do anything, just for repetition and insistence to get her thinking with you instead of against you.

I really like her though, and if you can get to trhe point where you aren't scared of riding her strongly, will do well with her :)
 
Thanks for the advice folks. It has given me alot to think about! I have been taking her to a trainer (who's name has already been mentioned on this thread) every week, but still I am having the same problems as I had when I first got her. As somebody mentioned, I know I now ride her expecting her to be silly, which I think is partly where the problem lies. I accept she is going to be silly a few strides out, rather than riding her as if we wern't going to have any problems (if you get what I mean!). She does have a temper on her if you really get after her, and having ended up on the floor 4 times this year when I have tried to tackle her about it, I know (and TBH she knows) she can chuck me on the floor!

As far as varied work goes she hacks out, and does flatwork. I jump once, maybe twice a week max. She hasn't been out yet properly XC schooling, but she has had a play around my XC field which has some ditches, a bank and a tyre fence. Ironically she was fine with the ditches and bank, spooked first time at the tyres, but then jumped them ok.
 
As far as varied work goes she hacks out, and does flatwork. I jump once, maybe twice a week max. She hasn't been out yet properly XC schooling, but she has had a play around my XC field which has some ditches, a bank and a tyre fence. Ironically she was fine with the ditches and bank, spooked first time at the tyres, but then jumped them ok.
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My thoughts re what other stuff you did with her was really about variety. Have you tried simply not jumping her? I wonder if people get stuck in a vicious circle sometimes by trying to fix what is wrong, and end up simply compounding it by doing it again and again.

Giving her a different job to do might freshen her up a bit - she clearly can jump - and shows no sign of fear, just pigginess.

Just a thought from a non competitor - but I do wonder if allowing her to think for herself in a 'fun' less pressured environment may be the key to the answers you are looking for......
 
Sorry, another one popping in to say it looks like she's taking the micky. She looks bored.

As someone else has said, if she's been through the sales, with that breeding, she's probably already been to a professional.

I think that she is going to have to learn to do as her rider asks. The rears are bouncy stroppy ones, but if she has 'an attitude' there is a chance that they will get bigger.

How often is she worked? How long for? What do you do with her?

You look a competant rider, as in can sit the silliness. Maybe you need to go instructor hunting.
 
ok i watched most of the videos and WOW she is lovely,, my first thought is that she is a mare and looks to be a bit silly rather than being scared!! Im assuming you have looked at her feed etc to work load as you would totally amazed at how much some feeds just make for a quirky temp!!!! I would deffo keep goin with her i do really feel from what i can see that you will get there in the end and she will probably jump the world for you once you get it together, your just on slightly diff pages at the mo!!! She really really has been under saddle for a very short period of time and some horses while physically grown up just arent in the head (im sure you kno that already)!!!

As for a pro, good idea for short term gain,, but ideally you want to ride her yourself, if a pro has her and rides her you then have to learn what buttons the pro presses to get the answers you want,,

If she were mine i would spend as much time with her and be trained from the ground by the pro( pro on the ground) then if needs be he/she can get on!!!


feels like your not progressing im sure but i think once you and this mare get it sorted you will be very successful on her!!!!! Also we do ride diff if we have had issues try really hard to put them out of your mind!!

best of luck!!!

PT
 
I had one a bit like that, well I think I got to him before he got to this stage, but he had learnt how to deck a rider over his shoulder then piss off into the distance if there was something special about a fence. Looked the business and bred in the purple, got him for a song too, when he was 6 and had a track record of going out and getting eliminated. I took him to some tiny clear rounds, then hunted him several times that winter, some pairs hunter trials, and he turned the corner. His name was D Day. If I were in the UK I would be on my way to you to pick her up! I agree with Spotted Cat and Tarr Steps, pick a pro you like, someone firm but not brutal, and accept that if she does turn a corner you will almost certainly get offered lots of money for her, and if she doesn't she will have cost you a lot. Looking at her head I think she'll turn the corner with the right person. Good luck!
 
She's lovely isn't she! I've got noothing to add as nowhere near as experienced as many on this thread but one thing I will say is my arab used to be like this to a certain degree.... He would stop at all fillers, then even when jumped once or twice happily would suddenly slam brakes on.... It definately changes your riding knowing that the brakes can go on that fast - admittedly mine never reared. One thing we worked on was NEVER turning away, either rein back and come again or get helper to drop fence to the floor, and walk over. Repetition of this gave him the idea that through the wings was the only option! Eventually.... He still does occasionally stop but its a rarity these days.
Also, he will still spook like mad at a filler left lying around in/beside the school. Put the same filler under a jump, and 99 times out of 100 he will jump it.
 
Is she really a full sister to HT and BE? if so, wow.
she's stunning, and bright, and i think she's naughty because she's careful, athletic, and kind of looking for trouble. you do ride her a bit with kid gloves, if she did that with me i'd be growling at her and you'd be able to hear me 40 yards away. i don't hit mares, it doesn't work with 99% of them, but your voice is a v v valuable tool to persuade them with, most of them doing like being told off ime.
it's difficult, because you need to ride her positively enough so that if she goes, it's fine, but defensively enough to convince her she HAS to go... but not so defensively that she thinks 'uh oh, why is she being so defensive, where's the problem.' delicate balance.
i would have the fences smaller until you have no probs with ANY filler. literally, so she can step over them. the wood filler with pole on top was too big to try to do from a standstill imho, i'd have backed her away, for discipline, and come again. her knocking the pole off and then trying to scramble over and banging her legs on it was a bit worrying to watch.
i'd have a tiny fence and a pile of rugs and a nice helper and put a diff coloured rug over every time, change it repeatedly and keep at it till she gets bored and just hops over whatever is there.
i'd teach her to jump from walk too, do loads from trot, and not canter to anything until she's no longer stopping and pratting about.
i think you look competent enough to sort it, as long as you are confident enough to sort it. she's not 'bad', she's a naughty youngster trying to find out where the goalposts are! the rocking back on her bum is naughty, but i wouldn't even class those as rears... she looks too smart to be a flipper. i'd spin her in circles and growl at her every time she does it though, annoy her back so she thinks twice before doing it.
just my three penneth worth! good luck with her, she's cracking.
 
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