Should unqualified trimmers be legal?

cptrayes

cptrayes

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I've been hearing some stories lately about people setting up as paid trimmers after doing a weekend "owner familiarisation" course or even after watching their trimmer trim their horse for a couple of times.

I've come to the conclusion that this should be stopped, and that only farriers and people who have completed one of the four lengthy reputable trimming courses available to people in this country should be allowed to be paid to trim horses.

Obviously there would have to be a let-out for people already employed as full time trimmers, just as there was when farriers first had to be registered. But while it is, frankly, pretty easy to trim a bog standard straight horse with good feet, it can't be right for people with so little training to set themselves up trimming all manner of horses with problems.

What do you think?

And what can we do to make it happen?
 
Totally agree..

What about some kind of affiliation with WCF for extensively trained trimmers/podiatrists? Not sure how they'd go about it though..
 
I think the FRC have been pushing this off and on for some time. Absolutely there should be some form of formal registration and supervision. In no other area of animal care - so far as I am aware - can an unqualified person perform what can amount to a medical proceedure.

Yes a basic and uncomplicated trim is not usually difficult. But more than that can quickly turn into a welfare case.

As to what we could do about it - sorry. Less help there. There is an option on the Downing street website to start a petition and once it reaches a set number of signatures it has to be debated in parliament. We could try that. I wonder if the FRC have any views.
 
I agree with you. The most dreadful feet I have ever seen on horses was a "stud" who timmed their own and then, shockingly started doing other people's. I suppose the only way to get is stopped is to get BEVA involved and maybe a local MP to get the ball rolling, and e-petition maybe a start too.
 
My own preference would be for a two tier registration from the FRC. People who are registered for foot care without being able to shoe, and people who are registered for foot care including shoeing. They don't seem interested at the moment, they still seem to think that the barefoot movement is a flash in the pan.
 
I don't agree on with you on this one .
People have just got to take responsibility for making sure the people working on their horses ares suitable .
Legal status and registration is not stopping loads of horses being made lame by bad farriers it is in IMO only acting to protect the farriers in a nice closed shop that appears to me to protect them against their customers ( look at the ridiculous punishments handed out to the farrier that cut the shoes off a horse belonging to a cilent he was angry with).
It is of course not right for people to set them selves up as experts when they are not properly trained.
I would like to see all the BF organisation agree a standard and come together under one umbrella as that would make easier for people to understand who was properly trained .
But the law no its an ass.
 
I agree there should be a minimum standard & registration.

I know a farmer trims his horses. Young guy who is in his employ who knows nothing about horses is being shown by him 'how to trim' so he can take over from farmer. Heavens knows what state / balance those feet will be in. Very scary.:eek:
 
Trimmers, as opposed to farriers who trim, is still fairly new to me so although I do like the option, I don't know a lot about them - training routes/methods etc...

Perhaps that in itself is a problem... You mention four organisations who have acceptable courses - I'm not familiar with all of them and surely it would be of some benefit to have a training route which was uniform and accredited by a umbrella type organisation which would also ensure ongoing professional training and the enforcement of a professional standards/register/accountability etc... The uneducated, like myself, would have far more idea of what and who they'd be employing... I don't necessarily think it needs to be the WCF - there is undoubtedly cross over but if they're not broad minded enough to see this and view 'barefoot trimmers' as a lesser form of of professional then a different body should be appropriate... Along similar lines, doctors and nurses manage to work together, often with substantial cross over and education but still have their own professional structures...

From what I've seen, and I don't know four organisations, it seems to be a career option for individuals who can afford fairly expensive training fees... Not sure that is going to necessarily create a profession of those who could be the best...

PS...just some random thoughts... I'm still negotiating feet full stop...
:)
 
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Ladydragon said:
From what I've seen, and I don't know four organisations, it seems to be a career option for individuals who can afford fairly expensive training fees... Not sure that is going to necessarily create a profession of those who could be the best...
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Good point!

The fees are thousands of pounds and of course no Student Loan is available. On the other hand I suppose that it does show that the people who do it are motivated!

The organisation are:

EP (not sure of the initials he uses) US Equine Podiatry

UKEP UK Equine Podiatry

UKNHCP UK Natural Hoofcare Practitioners

AANHCP Association of American Natutal Hoofcare Practioners
 
cptrayes said:
Good point!

The fees are thousands of pounds and of course no Student Loan is available. On the other hand I suppose that it does show that the people who do it are motivated!

The organisation are:

EP (not sure of the initials he uses) US Equine Podiatry

UKEP UK Equine Podiatry

UKNHCP UK Natural Hoofcare Practitioners

AANHCP Association of American Natutal Hoofcare Practioners
Click to expand...

Thanks for those... :)

I agree with the motivation aspect... But, being realistic... Youngsters, people forced to consider a career change, horse owners already spending their last penny to keep their horses and goodness knows who else are often going to find it hard to access a few grand for fees and then some to live on... It precludes a substantial pool of potential professionals and kinda suggests that it's elitist or a qualification for purchase rather than an education or in any way merit based... Particularly with it being spread around between organisations with no common registration...

Perhaps it's the (extra :D) mature student in me who's currently struggling on student finance, but getting my motivation from obtaining a universally recognised qualification and, hopefully, resulting in international accreditation... The 'buy a qualification and become a professional' suggestion sticks in my craw a bit and dilutes it for me...

:)
 
I agree that the frc need to stop burying their heads and use the opportunity to unify trimming qualified people in their structure. I mean, its only been in the last 10 years that we have been able to properly image the structures inside a live hoof (MRI) so its silly to dismiss new theories on hoof function and the effect of shoes. To ignore it may ultimately be dangerous to FRC.
 
Ladydragon said:
Perhaps it's the (extra :D) mature student in me who's currently struggling on student finance, but getting my motivation from obtaining a universally recognised qualification and, hopefully, resulting in international accreditation... The 'buy a qualification and become a professional' suggestion sticks in my craw a bit and dilutes it for me...

:)
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They aren't buying a qualification!

They are paying for a long training process and mentoring.
 
Does this include the EPA UK course?
It does cost thousands in excess of 6, to train but each course is self regulated so hey can take ur money, letu nearly complete the course then chuck u off with no final certificate!!

Unfirtuantelybtgi doesn't mean that u donjotnhave the skills or experience as any other trimmer just lacking a but of paper. I know someone this happened too. So low they can't access the on going training etc. They were actually more qualified than the trainers as they aalso had a relevant degree which the trainers didn't!!

I do agree that people need to be made more aware of the differences in a 2 day course and a proper course with intense training, exams, theory, practical, disections etc also to pass the exams u have to get a min of 80% most other qualifications u only need 40%.

However also agree that u have to b registered to use a farrier and I'd have to b pretty desperate to use a farrier ad I have seen so many poor hooves shod and unshod trimmed by farrier and the horses r often lame/sore after. May I have just had bad look with the horse I have come across?! Registering doesn't mean u are any better but in may give people reassurance that their is a complaints procedure and consequences to actions. I do believe the EP organisations have been asking for this with the FC to introduce an industry standard and regulation.

Sorry bit of a rant!!
 
Agree changes need to be made. The RSPCA have a strong lobbying arm so it would be worth trying to involve them and some of the other horse charities which do political lobbying. The e petition and support of an MP and the FRC and the various barefoot organisations would help too.
 
cptrayes said:
They aren't buying a qualification!

They are paying for a long training process and mentoring.
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Perhaps I mis worded... But I obviously don't mean buy as in pick up a piece of paper all stamped and ready to go - buy as in being in a financial position to afford expensive fees...

The lack of regulation and an overall supervisory body is my main issue though I guess... Not that some recent events with a suspension handed out by the FRC or many of the stories on here have exactly inspired me with great belief in their internal regulation and professional standards...:rolleyes:

The suggestion that owners should be educated in hoof care (every other care) is a good one - but if we're all expected to be educated to the point we're able to supervise and correctly evaluate a professional called out for our horse we'd be able to do the jobs ourselves... Which kinda (IMO anyway) throws any professional training/standards out the window a bit... We employ a vet, farrier, barefoot trimmer, EDT etc and should be able to expect that not only have they learnt more than us but that if they screw up, we should be able to make formal complaints and see some professional accountability...

Regulation, minimum standards and 'someone' who checks the individual ticks all the boxes...

Are the RCVS at all interested as I'd imagine they might have to pick up the pieces if a trimmer did something disastrous - although as veterinary services require payment, arguably, that might not be a great incentive for ensuring trimmers are regulated...

:)
 
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It may b more beneficial for the industry to standardize the qualification and get it nationally recognised like an HND or degree. I know this is something they were trying to Do years ago but haven't heard that it has happened.
 
I think its a good idea. Qualifications won't stop all dodgy trimmers, just like they haven't wiped out bad farriers, instructors etc but it would certainly reduce them. Not sure how it would work though. Are there enough good registered trimmers for an apprentice scheme to work? Whereby a very small wage is offered? And courses can be spread out over a long period & paid for a small amount at a time too? As well as welfare groups & wcf would vets be willing to back it too?
 
Waltzing Matilda said:
It may b more beneficial for the industry to standardize the qualification and get it nationally recognised like an HND or degree. I know this is something they were trying to Do years ago but haven't heard that it has happened.
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I think this would be a good solution.
An HND would be my choice.
But I don't see much evidence of widespread major harm being caused by trimmers , so it's not a huge welfare issue IMO .
The farriers will fight to prevent the trimmers getting recognised being the licensed trade is their big gun for protecting their closed shop.
 
Goldenstar said:
But I don't see much evidence of widespread major harm being caused by trimmers , so it's not a huge welfare issue IMO
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If only from the threads I've seen on here I'd agree with that... But I vaguely remember a thread about one of the main insurance companies hiding something in their T&Cs that made the use of a b/f trimmer a contraindication for payment... I'm not sure of the wording - ie, if it was 'unqualified' or anyone not registered with the WCF...

Of course, there are alternative insurers - but if it's a lack of regulation or 'official status' as a profession that creates such a situation it can't be helpful for those who wish to utilise the services of a trimmer instead of a farrier...
 
cptrayes said:
Good point!

The fees are thousands of pounds and of course no Student Loan is available. On the other hand I suppose that it does show that the people who do it are motivated!

The organisation are:

EP (not sure of the initials he uses) US Equine Podiatry

UKEP UK Equine Podiatry

UKNHCP UK Natural Hoofcare Practitioners

AANHCP Association of American Natutal Hoofcare Practioners
Click to expand...

And ESA http://www.equinesciencesacademy.com/esa_00006b.htm
 
The WCF website has information on it advising that soft hooves incapable of working without shoes are due to the northern hemisphere and its climate.

So unless you live in a dry climate - you can't have a working barefoot horse :eek:.

This is at odds with barefoot thinking :D.

There would have to be a turn around in theory and eductaion before we jump into bed with the WCF :confused:
 
cptrayes said:
Never heard of that one Obes! Ta.
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Not as well known over in the UK but I can promise you the course is as high quality as you will find. They're been involved in the Lantra thing as well as the others.

And there is no single guru or ego in charge of it ;) :D.
 
Goldenstar said:
I think this would be a good solution.
An HND would be my choice.
But I don't see much evidence of widespread major harm being caused by trimmers , so it's not a huge welfare issue IMO .
The farriers will fight to prevent the trimmers getting recognised being the licensed trade is their big gun for protecting their closed shop.
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I like the HND idea a lot. And I agree with you that it is much easier for a farrier to do serious long term harm than a trimmer.

And, huge sighhhhhh, your last sentence currently sums up the situation completely. When are they going to wake up to the fact that shoes were invented so that horses could do their job as machines, and that they are not nearly so much needed now as they used to be? It seems so blindingly obvious to me that the registration should be two tier -those who can shoe and those who can't.
 
To be quite frank, I think that every owner should be able to trim their own horses feet, as part of the general care of their horse.
In the real world most owners are incapable of working out a correct diet for their horse, let alone anything else.
I don't want a bunch of academics fannying about with my horses feet. Immature inexperienced vets are bad enough, without creating another lot.
 
Pale Rider said:
To be quite frank, I think that every owner should be able to trim their own horses feet, as part of the general care of their horse.
In the real world most owners are incapable of working out a correct diet for their horse, let alone anything else.
I don't want a bunch of academics fannying about with my horses feet. Immature inexperienced vets are bad enough, without creating another lot.
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You old cynic you LOL
 
Pale Rider said:
I've had a bad day, lol.
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Me too damp well soaked ,all horses in as they where sick ,getting ready for a weekend away at a competion that's probally won't happen.house a tip must buckle down ( and get offline!!!!)
Not my usual sunny self that's for sure.
 
Pale Rider said:
To be quite frank, I think that every owner should be able to trim their own horses feet, as part of the general care of their horse.
In the real world most owners are incapable of working out a correct diet for their horse, let alone anything else.
I don't want a bunch of academics fannying about with my horses feet. Immature inexperienced vets are bad enough, without creating another lot.
Click to expand...

OK - who let Pale Rider near the bar? :D
 
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