Should we ever intefere or just mind our own business?

Shilasdair said:
But seriously, who made you the judge of 'obvious cruelty'?
S :D
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Depends on trying to define the undefinable I suppose and there would be plenty of disagreements on fine lines of grey... Dog fighting has much support and approval despite being generally deemed cruel... I'd be at peace with my conscience in deciding it is obvious cruelty... :D
 
OK, just to join in the argument

"Obvious cruelty" I have observed over the years.

1. Failing to get vet treatment for serious injuries/colic/laminutus
2. Stabling a horse 24/7 and only feeding it once a day and ran out of hay in 2 hours
3. Grossly overfeeding ponies with a history of laminitus
4. Failing to get horses shod until the shoes dropped off, I remember one was over 6 months
5. Only checking turnout ponies once or twice a week so injuries etc not picked up for days.
6. Not bothering with tetanus injections, not a nice death to witness
7. Thrashing horses with bits of wood or lengths of hosepipe


I'm sure there are more, I have had horses for 50 years.
 
Ladydragon said:
Depends on trying to define the undefinable I suppose and there would be plenty of disagreements on fine lines of grey... Dog fighting has much support and approval despite being generally deemed cruel... I'd be at peace with my conscience in deciding it is obvious cruelty... :D
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You understand my point though - the justification for bitching/bullying always seems to be on horse welfare grounds these days.
S :D
 
Shilasdair said:
You understand my point though - the justification for bitching/bullying always seems to be on horse welfare grounds these days.
S :D
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I do hear what youre saying, but it'll be a sad day for all horses when no matter what they see people just walk by for fear of being called a busybody, i bet the spindles farm horses that lived, are glad someone spoke out :(
 
rockysmum said:
OK, just to join in the argument

"Obvious cruelty" I have observed over the years.

1. Failing to get vet treatment for serious injuries/colic/laminutus
2. Stabling a horse 24/7 and only feeding it once a day and ran out of hay in 2 hours
3. Grossly overfeeding ponies with a history of laminitus
4. Failing to get horses shod until the shoes dropped off, I remember one was over 6 months
5. Only checking turnout ponies once or twice a week so injuries etc not picked up for days.
6. Not bothering with tetanus injections, not a nice death to witness
7. Thrashing horses with bits of wood or lengths of hosepipe


I'm sure there are more, I have had horses for 50 years.
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I've had a car for decades, it doesn't make me a mechanic.
1. If the horse hasn't seen the vet - how do you know it has laminitis, colic etc? Or are you qualified to diagnose?
2. For some ailments, the treatment is to withhold hay. Some of mine have been starved for days. Would I tell my fellow liveries? Probably not - not their business.
3. Are you qualified to feed ration as well as diagnose?
4. Failing to get horses shod - not a welfare issue - failing to trim may be.
5. How do you know how often horses are checked - maybe the owners are there when you are not? Unless you stalk them...
6. Tetanus injections are the norm, but then some humans choose not to get their infants vaccinated with MMR on the grounds of Wakefield's discredited paper.
7. I've used ropes/blue hosepipe myself on occasion (not often wood though :p). Sometimes, you can't reason with 800kg of recalcitrant Shire x Tb. It's far more of a welfare issue if you don't discipline horses to make them safe for humans to handle.

S :D
 
Azabache said:
I won't go into details but heard today that a fellow livery is planning to do something which imo has a very high risk of ending up with an unhappy / potentially dangerous outcome.
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If I had "heard" it from a third party I would take it with a pinch of salt and say nothing. Stories often get distorted in the telling and approaching someone with the opening line "So and so says you are going to do such and such...." comes over as interfereing - and "So and So" might well have got hold of the wrong end of the stick.

Azabache said:
In light of a previous emotive thread and now this situation, it got me wondering - are there ever any situations in which you should 'interfere' or should we always keep out of other people's business as afterall they are a grown up and it is their own horse?
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If someone I was very good friends with was going to do something that might bring them to some harm, and I had the sort of relationship with them whereby I knew they wouldn't be offended or annoyed i might say something - but only if it was over something important.

If it was someone I didn't know very well i would only offer advice if I was asked for it.
 
Shilasdair said:
I've had a car for decades, it doesn't make me a mechanic.
1. If the horse hasn't seen the vet - how do you know it has laminitis, colic etc? Or are you qualified to diagnose?
2. For some ailments, the treatment is to withhold hay. Some of mine have been starved for days. Would I tell my fellow liveries? Probably not - not their business.
3. Are you qualified to feed ration as well as diagnose?
4. Failing to get horses shod - not a welfare issue - failing to trim may be.
5. How do you know how often horses are checked - maybe the owners are there when you are not? Unless you stalk them...
6. Tetanus injections are the norm, but then some humans choose not to get their infants vaccinated with MMR on the grounds of Wakefield's discredited paper.
7. I've used ropes/blue hosepipe myself on occasion (not often wood though :p). Sometimes, you can't reason with 800kg of recalcitrant Shire x Tb. It's far more of a welfare issue if you don't discipline horses to make them safe for humans to handle.

S :D
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Brilliant, you make a valid point. I deal with politics everyday at an equine uni!
Usually because I chose to ride in spurs over a schooling whip as my 4 year old doesn't like the whip, but he is a lazy turd when he wants to be!

We need more of you in the equine world :D
 
Shilasdair said:
For some ailments, the treatment is to withhold hay. Some of mine have been starved for days. Would I tell my fellow liveries? Probably not - not their business.
S :D
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What do you mean by 'starved'? Do you mean have their feed cut down for controlled weight loss, feeding little and often, or do you mean 'starved' as in no food? Or 'starved' as in having food withdrawn for 12 hours for veterinary purposes?
 
Shilasdair said:
I've had a car for decades, it doesn't make me a mechanic.
1. If the horse hasn't seen the vet - how do you know it has laminitis, colic etc? Or are you qualified to diagnose?
2. For some ailments, the treatment is to withhold hay. Some of mine have been starved for days. Would I tell my fellow liveries? Probably not - not their business.
3. Are you qualified to feed ration as well as diagnose?
4. Failing to get horses shod - not a welfare issue - failing to trim may be.
5. How do you know how often horses are checked - maybe the owners are there when you are not? Unless you stalk them...
6. Tetanus injections are the norm, but then some humans choose not to get their infants vaccinated with MMR on the grounds of Wakefield's discredited paper.
7. I've used ropes/blue hosepipe myself on occasion (not often wood though :p). Sometimes, you can't reason with 800kg of recalcitrant Shire x Tb. It's far more of a welfare issue if you don't discipline horses to make them safe for humans to handle.

S :D
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:D :D I know what you are saying however. I actually dont get involved often as I'm not around a lot. But I didn't blame anyone who did. Non of this is recent by the way. Everyone on our current yard has decent standards of care.


1. No but I have rung owners when their horse is throwing itself around a stable. One notable occasion they rang the yard owner and asked her to ring the vet and deal with it as they were washing their hair and going out. Vet later diagnosed as colic.
2. Would agree except for the rant by said teenagers parents when they visited and found out (not from me) that it was fed once a day and mucked out once a blue moon.
3. Again no, however vets later blamed further bouts of laminitus on feeding regime.
4. Hard to see how they could be trimmed without removing the shoes
5. Seen them when they were finally discovered and vet had to be called for festering wounds.
6. Agree but then those parents are idiots too
7. I said thrashed not disciplined BIG difference.
 
Wagtail said:
What do you mean by 'starved'? Do you mean have their feed cut down for controlled weight loss, feeding little and often, or do you mean 'starved' as in no food? Or 'starved' as in having food withdrawn for 12 hours for veterinary purposes?
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Well, one of mine has had colic surgery for IFEE (it's on the Uni of Liverpool website) and hay was withheld for days post surgery.
She then became very ill (due to an allergy) and forage was again withheld (starved) to try to stop the diarrhoea etc.
She will be starved again in the future, when I have her allergy tested (feeding them can screw the results).
I also kept her on a mud paddock with no grass at all, in the midst of a lush field. This may appear to the odd busybody to be blatant cruelty, but if your horse is allergic to ryegrass, and stresses horribly in her stable then it's actually in her best interests (her veterinary approved interests). Obviously she gets fed alfalfa or timothy products instead.
The truly clever horsey people will always discuss it with the owner - the bitchy/bully types will always tell tales to the YO/discuss it on HHO/bitch on FB or to the world.
If anyone wants to know about my horses - and why I manage them strangely - just ask.
S :D
 
I'm really glad someone "interfered" by asking me if Flame often stood pointing her front front because it might mean she had a problem.

It was a long time ago but there have been many more occasions since where people have volunteered information that has been helpful. It might come down to whether it is telling someone what to do ( :mad: ) or just offering up an idea ( :cool: ).
 
Shilasdair said:
You understand my point though - the justification for bitching/bullying always seems to be on horse welfare grounds these days.
S :D
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Yes, I do understand... And busy bodies drive me batty... But I'm fundamentally too lazy to be one and would probably have a higher threshold than many... It would have to be pretty 'obvious', not a projection of my own choice of care etc... :D
 
Flame_ said:
I'm really glad someone "interfered" by asking me if Flame often stood pointing her front front because it might mean she had a problem.

It was a long time ago but there have been many more occasions since where people have volunteered information that has been helpful. It might come down to whether it is telling someone what to do ( :mad: ) or just offering up an idea ( :cool: ).
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Good post... :)
 
Shilasdair said:
Well, one of mine has had colic surgery for IFEE (it's on the Uni of Liverpool website) and hay was withheld for days post surgery.
She then became very ill (due to an allergy) and forage was again withheld (starved) to try to stop the diarrhoea etc.
She will be starved again in the future, when I have her allergy tested (feeding them can screw the results).
I also kept her on a mud paddock with no grass at all, in the midst of a lush field. This may appear to the odd busybody to be blatant cruelty, but if your horse is allergic to ryegrass, and stresses horribly in her stable then it's actually in her best interests (her veterinary approved interests). Obviously she gets fed alfalfa or timothy products instead.
The truly clever horsey people will always discuss it with the owner - the bitchy/bully types will always tell tales to the YO/discuss it on HHO/bitch on FB or to the world.
If anyone wants to know about my horses - and why I manage them strangely - just ask.
S :D
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Nice to see Shils in truly daemonic mood and playing devils advocate :D:D

What's up Shils? Hangover? ;);)
 
Flame_ said:
I'm really glad someone "interfered" by asking me if Flame often stood pointing her front front because it might mean she had a problem.

It was a long time ago but there have been many more occasions since where people have volunteered information that has been helpful. It might come down to whether it is telling someone what to do ( :mad: ) or just offering up an idea ( :cool: ).
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This it's why it's really difficult by ignoring things you miss helping people who are really open to advice.
I just go on gut instinct if I think it's worth it's I try if not I look away go home and tell my mules they are lucky.
 
Sadly you can't intefere, a few years ago some fellow liveries (on my old yard) owned a 3 year old warmblood who got an eye infection. When we were sat at the table (stuffing our faces, as per!!) they asked me what to do. I said that personally I would get the vet, as eyes can be tricky and I wouldn't want to risk anything going wrong! Anyway they said that they would leave it and see how it went, I respected their choice and left them to it. Later they began treating the eye by bathing it in tea after following the advice of another livery, the horse is now blind in that eye and only has limited vision in the other at only 5 years old. Obviously they sold the horse on as they had no use for a blind horse!
At the end of the day, they asked my opinion so I told them that I would get the vet but they chose not to. Nothing you can do unfortunatley, at the end of the day it's their horse and their choice and they have to deal with the consequences.
 
Shilasdair said:
Well, one of mine has had colic surgery for IFEE (it's on the Uni of Liverpool website) and hay was withheld for days post surgery.
She then became very ill (due to an allergy) and forage was again withheld (starved) to try to stop the diarrhoea etc.
She will be starved again in the future, when I have her allergy tested (feeding them can screw the results).
I also kept her on a mud paddock with no grass at all, in the midst of a lush field. This may appear to the odd busybody to be blatant cruelty, but if your horse is allergic to ryegrass, and stresses horribly in her stable then it's actually in her best interests (her veterinary approved interests). Obviously she gets fed alfalfa or timothy products instead.
The truly clever horsey people will always discuss it with the owner - the bitchy/bully types will always tell tales to the YO/discuss it on HHO/bitch on FB or to the world.
If anyone wants to know about my horses - and why I manage them strangely - just ask.
S :D
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Ah, you mean wading in? I wouldn't wade in unless someone's life was at risk in the immediate moments.

Naturally I'd give them chance to explain their actions fully before launching into my disruption ;)
 
LollyDolly said:
Sadly you can't intefere, a few years ago some fellow liveries (on my old yard) owned a 3 year old warmblood who got an eye infection. When we were sat at the table (stuffing our faces, as per!!) they asked me what to do. I said that personally I would get the vet, as eyes can be tricky and I wouldn't want to risk anything going wrong! Anyway they said that they would leave it and see how it went, I respected their choice and left them to it. Later they began treating the eye by bathing it in tea after following the advice of another livery, the horse is now blind in that eye and only has limited vision in the other at only 5 years old. Obviously they sold the horse on as they had no use for a blind horse!
At the end of the day, they asked my opinion so I told them that I would get the vet but they chose not to. Nothing you can do unfortunatley, at the end of the day it's their horse and their choice and they have to deal with the consequences.
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They did not deal with the consequences, they sold it on.
The one thing I found at a big yard was that people went round everyone asking for advice, then selected the easiest route/ took the advice they liked or which fell in with their own ideas.
I spent a week sorting mud fever in a big WB, my clean bandages twice per day, advised owner to change management as otherwise it would re-appear,........ guess what.............
and I used all my own first aid kit, still waiting for return of tail bandage [also had an irritated skin behind]. No wee pressy to cover costs.
PS I was not interfering, non horsey mum left in charge for a week and I was asked to help, ie bring in and do all the washing and Hibscrubing etc etc.
 
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Miss L Toe said:
They did not deal with the consequences, they sold it on.
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Well actually they did because they had to sell the horse for a lot less than what they paid, they bought it to bring on and ended up making a loss. Would have been a lot cheaper had they just got the vet but instead they have to deal with the financial consequences of losing a large amount of money.
 
Shilasdair said:
The truly clever horsey people will always discuss it with the owner - the bitchy/bully types will always tell tales to the YO/discuss it on HHO/bitch on FB or to the world.
If anyone wants to know about my horses - and why I manage them strangely - just ask.
S :D
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^^^^

This
 
Surely interfering is subjective? I for one am glad that someone interfered with James Grey, for example.
 
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