Should you call out bad service/warn others?

[sbloom]

It sounds like yours was very clear cut, and that you were directly asked and answered truthfully. On the flip side I see posts even on here where I know another side to the story and feel the posts are unfair. Impossible as an outsider to know which bad reviews and warnings are fair and which are not, though of course if 90%+ (or whatever threshold you are comfortable with) are positive then you can start to decide which negative reviews to ignore.

 

[Backtoblack]

It seems very clear cut to me. You had a bad experience, if asked about your experience with this saddle fitter you say it was bad. If it had been good you would say it had been good. Anything else is dishonest. After all, if you were crossing boggy land and sank you'd warn others "dont cross there" or would you watch them sink too? You do the right thing by warning people.

 

[Reacher]

If someone asked me a direct question I’d give them a factual answer.

A slightly different situation- I posted in local FB page asking for recommendations for a roofer to fix a leak. Got lots of recommendations for a certain firm. Got them out - quoted us for a job which we accepted and they did the work. 6 weeks or so later the leak reoccurred. Got them back out, said there was a cracked tile which they fixed.

This was now early spring, didn’t get heavy rain again for several months - come autumn and the leak reoccurred. Got them back out - said there was a crack in the seal which they fixed - next time it rained the leak reoccurred. This happened a few more times through winter.
To cut a long story short the last time the leak reoccurred we got the boss back out and let him know we weren’t happy (you should have seen the water running down our bedroom wall!!) and he became very aggressive, shouting and called us “stupid people “.

So I still see people asking for recommendations and see replies recommending that firm however I’m not sure it’s my place to say “don’t use XX” as that wasn’t the question , it’s a public forum and I don’t want reprisals.
No doubt if I left a review on the firm’s website it would get removed

 

[1523679]

Yes, absolutely.

There is nothing worse than only hearing the glowing reviews, not the “so-so” or “wouldn’t use them again” ones. It makes it much less likely that you’ll try to chase up a problem or make a complaint, because the public face of the firm is so rosy. It must be you, not them.

Saddle fitting, roofing, double glazing, vehicle repairs ... potentially a significant financial outlay for an “expert” product/service about which the customer is likely to have only low-level knowledge. Easy to get the wool pulled over your eyes, so it’s important to give others the benefit of your consumer experience.

The Which? organisation is missing a major trick when it comes to the horse world. Imagine if they did “Which? Saddle Fitter” ?

 

[Tash88]

I do, quite willingly if I've had a bad experience. My previous saddle fitter was awful in every way and I let people know so they might think twice about using her, or listening to any of her opinions for that matter. And I am always the first to recommend good service/professionals when asked as well.

Like others have said, a lot of the equine industry is unregulated, and sometimes a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing for 'professionals'.

 

[Baywonder]

Like every aspect of life, the equine industry has 'the good', 'the bad', the 'in-between-could-do-better' and the 'don't touch them with a barge pole' companies / people.

IME, word of mouth recommendations are priceless, and worth far more than any glossy, over-inflated advertising campaign. If you provide a good product and / or service, and treat your customers properly, that is all the advertising you need.

 

[mariew]

I don't think it's wrong if somebody asked you and you clearly stated that it was your experience. I once used a saddlefitter everyone swore by, but she couldn't fit one side of my horse and kept on saying the saddle would settle when it was basically perched on top and kept sliding round the minute i looked at it, plus it was far too small. So it's all individual.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Definitely reasonable to call her out.

 

[Lois Lame]

Like every aspect of life, the equine industry has 'the good', 'the bad', the 'in-between-could-do-better' and the 'don't touch them with a barge pole' companies / people.

IME, word of mouth recommendations are priceless, and worth far more than any glossy, over-inflated advertising campaign. If you provide a good product and / or service, and treat your customers properly, that is all the advertising you need.

I couldn't agree more.

And that's what good will is when a business is sold on - its good reputation, its customers already in place. Rotton, no-good businesses don't have that, and so many companies hind behind name changes.

 

[sbloom]

I have to say, being a saddle fitter and thinking, before I became one, that I'd be so much better than all the others who were clearly rubbish...it's a challenging job and it's depressing that we get singled out so much.

I think in part it's because so often you've committed money to an asset (your saddle), and having to change fitter often means they will feel the saddle doesn't fit *in the way they'd like it to*. We all have our biases and ways of fitting, but they cost you much more immediately than pros like vets, farriers, bodyworkers, trainers, where the cost is going to be spread out over undoing any problems caused. I do think we get treated more harshly but I try not to get cross about it, and just explain.

I have had SO many bodyworkers, and now one who has become a cutting edge saddle designer, but was never a fitter, comment that our job is tough, and usually thankless, and that they don't envy us one bit. So please try not to trash an entire profession.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I have to say, being a saddle fitter and thinking, before I became one, that I'd be so much better than all the others who were clearly rubbish...it's a challenging job and it's depressing that we get singled out so much.

I think in part it's because so often you've committed money to an asset (your saddle), and having to change fitter often means they will feel the saddle doesn't fit *in the way they'd like it to*. We all have our biases and ways of fitting, but they cost you much more immediately than pros like vets, farriers, bodyworkers, trainers, where the cost is going to be spread out over undoing any problems caused. I do think we get treated more harshly but I try not to get cross about it, and just explain.

I have had SO many bodyworkers, and now one who has become a cutting edge saddle designer, but was never a fitter, comment that our job is tough, and usually thankless, and that they don't envy us one bit. So please try not to trash an entire profession.

Why are there so many ways a saddle can "fit" though? I sort of hate that and it makes me feel like most Saddlers are just out to sell their brand(s). There has to be some sort of standard practices, or recognization of a comfortable horse and rider.

I've been through 5 saddles in the last 4 years (same horse) due to incompetence and trying to find a good fitter. I'll spend the money, but my trust is absolutely shattered.

The horse has changed, so I did expect to go through a saddle or 2, but not 5. I've literally been sat in a saddle too small for myself and the horse and been told it's perfect. Or thrown into a chair seat and just been told it's fine, I have to learn to ride in it. I also will never order another new saddle. Seems to frequently end in disappointment.

Sure it's a tough job and people are critical, but it's not the only tough job out there and no one forces you into the industry. When a fitter is good, and can make horse and rider comfortable, I more than appreciate them and people are quick to recommend them (mostly through FB around here). I'm sure it is thankless at times, as most jobs that offer a service are, but IME if you're good, you're good. You can't please everyone though.

Most of the complaints about fitters I've seen have been legit. Or they've been more about the brand/company than the fitter or rep.

Maybe you can offer more insight on this, but I don't know many common falsehoods that are floating around about fitters or how opinions on fit can vary so wildly.

In the OP's case it was quite clear cut. Someone asked, she gave an honest answer about her experience.

 

[Ambers Echo]

It's odd something that looks reasonably simple obviously isn't! I'd appreciate insights too into what can go wrong. I also had a horrendous experience with a fitted saddle that slipped from side to side from the day I bought it. I was told it was bad riding and 'loose skin' rather than a saddle fit issue.

She came out twice in the weeks after I bought it to tell me it was fine even though pretty much everyone else could see it did not fit. Pony developed a bruised back because of it and I ditched the saddler for someone else pretty quickly and bought a new saddle once back was fine again. RI, vet, physio and new saddler all agreed saddle did not remotely fit.

That kind of experience just seems far too common and it's hard to understand why. Maybe saddlers only have a limited stock of limited brands and need to pick the best of a bad bunch fit wise? Maybe some shapes are hard to fit to? Maybe the training/accreditation process is poor so you can pass without actually being any good at it?

I honestly dont know. I'm very happy with my current fitter though! Its certainly not all of them.

 

[honetpot]

I think doing any job well you need an 'eye', and the ability to understand what ever knowledge you have it has to be adapted to real life. The ideas that if you have measured X and it comes to Y, it must fit, and it must be comfortable, well if you have ever bought chidrens shoes, or made a dress, you know the measurements is just the starting point.
I have some sympathy for fitters, to carry enough stock to fit every animal they see, is just not possible, but I have seen a couple of times saddles that have been completely the wrong fit being pushed at buyers. Perhaps a business model where the fitter is not dependent on the sale of their stock, or a particular brand, but would people pay for just the fitting with no instant gratification.

 

[ycbm]

There are some huge problems with the saddle selling industry. First new saddles are made to order after being tried for a very limited amount of time. Half an hour in a demo saddle that may not even be the exact size and shape of the one you order is not a good basis for spending a huge amount of money that can only be refunded in the most extreme cases of negligent fitting. And unlike cars, you can't read a dozen reviews of that saddle with your body and your horse using it, the experience is very personal to both.

Second, most sellers of new saddles work for only one or two brands and can only sell what they've got even if the fit is a compromise.

Then the horse is a live creature, and the timescale to delivery from order can be long enough for the horse to have changed before it's even delivered.

The glory days of saddle buying, for me, were back in the 80s and 90s where there were local shops stacked high with second hand saddles to try and there were fitters who were paid to fit, not to sell you a saddle. And people with a van full of second hand would visit the yard.
.

 

[brighteyes]

Absolutely you should. I wouldn't exaggerate or get personal but especially if admissions were made to the effect their service was at fault... What else can they expect? I might be less critical if full reparations were made and costs reimbursed. You are paying for a service!

Wouldn't hesitate to do a # post if something was really dangerous.

Dodgy dealer page is one example of 'don't go there' advice and examples - often repeat examples, which shows you can't help everyone.

As with any service, do the research, investigate thoroughly and I think #posts can help you find the relevant stuff out to help you decide.

 

[1523679]

I have to say, being a saddle fitter and thinking, before I became one, that I'd be so much better than all the others who were clearly rubbish...it's a challenging job and it's depressing that we get singled out so much.

I have had SO many bodyworkers, and now one who has become a cutting edge saddle designer, but was never a fitter, comment that our job is tough, and usually thankless, and that they don't envy us one bit. So please try not to trash an entire profession.

From a customer point of view, it genuinely appears that your profession has more than its fair share of sub-standard practitioners.

I thought hard before choosing double glazing as one of my comparatives. There are some excellent double-glazing companies, offering a first-class product and service with fair, transparent (ha) pricing. But there are also lots of mediocre companies you’d only ever use once, and a fair few total charlatans.

I like my saddle fitter, but I know several people who wouldn’t touch them with a barge pole. The saddle fitters recommended to me by those same people are ones that you, from your posts on the subject, wouldn’t give the time of day to. (I share your opinion.)

I’ll stand by my statement - it would be fantastic to have an independent, impartial Which?-style review of saddle fitters. The good and the great can shine through, then we can all go and use them instead of the mediocre and downright bad.

 

[marmalade76]

One of the biggest problems with the industry is there seems to be little or no come-back unlike virtually everything else you can buy.

 

[TPO]

In my very short flash in the pan time as a saddle fitter for one brand my take away was that the problem with saddle fitting was the owners ?

The clients that stuck out:

One tall and heavy set woman had a wee native (14hh ish). Horse was older, lame and clearly had some sort of hock issues going on. The saddle didnt fit and tou could see/feel bruising on horses back. The rider simply didnt fit in the size of saddle that the horse could accommodate.

I let her feel over the horses back and feel the bruising/see the reaction so she knew what was going on.

I walked and trotted horse up for her with pointers what to look at so she could see the lameness. I advised that she call the vet to investigate further.

I hands on let her feel last rib and showed saddle placement etc. Explained that her length of thigh didnt fit in that space.

She insisted that she would be continuing to ride so I came up with the best options that I could and that was a new saddle with a bigger seat than panel size and a bigger saddle flap to take up some leg. She didnt want to spend that amount on an old horse ?

The most she would agree to was adjusting current saddle. I can do it on site but told her it would be a 3wk wait, in my head thinking it would give the bruising time to heal. Again I advised a vet and if not a vet at the very least a body worker or physio. Owner says that she herself gets sports massages all the time and they are great so I emphasis the benefits for her horse.

I rock up 3wks later and the bruising had healed. Owner says "see horse didnt need any treatments he's fine" ? refit saddle and rider rides in it. School has mirrors so I point out politely all the ways she doesnt fit the saddle and how it'll hurt the horse the same way as before. I was told shes not getting another horse and not keeping this one and not riding it so tough.

I know she bad mouthed me as not having a clue how to fit a saddle or knowing about horses because she is fine in her horse and there is nothing wrong with how her horse moves. She tried to phone and message me a few times to get me back after that but I ignored her (very unprofessional I know but coudlnt face seeing that genuine wee pony in pain again).

Had another client with an expensive brand of saddle that didnt come.close to fitting and was causing sore areas. Owner went on about X fitting the saddle. I didn't know X but couldn't get my head around what had gone one. So while I'm doing my thing it slips out that X did fit the saddle but to another horse!! Owner had bought this saddle from another livery because their horses were the same (?) shape ??‍ meanwhile X's name has been dragged through the mud.

A friend (?) asked me to check a saddle fit for her because her "trainer" had changed the saddle told friend to ride in trainers 18". So I check it and make owner be hands in so she can feel what I'm talking about. Owner leaves because "its boring" and she wants a coffee ?. I finish the checks of trainer and owner saddles and report back that trainers doesnt fit at all and that owner saddle is the better of the two but isnt great and if she wont change it then it needs some adjustments to flocking and pads.

Owner/friend continues to ride in trainers saddle and horse gets unhappier. Other liveries question saddle fit and she tells them I checked it and it's fine. Anyone with eyes could see it didnt fit so I look bad.

I had a lot of clients who didnt want to pay to get the right fit and were happy to "make do" at their horses expensive. I had clients say A was their usual fitter but look how awful saddle fits and later itll come out, after theyve lied, that they hadnt had a fitter out in 1yr+

I had a lot of people who had bought an adjustable saddle from ebay and didnt understand that an adjustable saddle isnt a one size fits all. People also dont understand the effects that putting wider headplates can have on the tree.

Bad riding plays a part too. Look at the shape of a horses back standing stationary with head up the head down and moving in a correct posture over the back and up the neck compared to hollow and bracing. A saddle that fits when the horse is static might not fit when moving and vice versa. The difference in fit can be a good rider vs a not so good rider. A rider than can get a horse working over its back and engaging abs is going to produce a very different shape from someone who creates a false outline or has a hollow horse.

Then there is the rider themselves. Most horse riders are squint because of mucking out, carrying heavy buckets, sitting at a desk, driving etc. You stick one of them in a saddle and they ste going to make it move. So that sore point over the horses right shoulder might be caused by saddle pressure but the saddle has slipped and is bearing down there because rider is right handed with weaker left side that has collapsed and they are gripped up with left leg. So yeah a saddle can fit a horse and rider but over time the rider effects the fit and suddenly it's a hopeless saddle fitter.

It costs a lot to carry a big stock and people generally arent prepared to pay more for fits to give a fitter the capital to have stock. It's pretty common to fit X to a horse and then person gets it cheaper from ebay. Even buying 2nd hand an extra £100 + should be budgeted in as a 2nd hand should always be reflected for it's new horse but people dont want to pay fitter fee and flocking because that doesnt make their ebay bargain as cheap.

So yeah I get that pennies can be tight but you cant make use of a fitters skills and time and simultaneously expect them to be able to afford to carry a large stock which would be the ideal.

There are fitters who only sell one brand so they might sell a less than perfect fit if it's the best fit they can get. I would doubt that many of them can afford to carry every model with every tree option or even have bare trees. So I guess in those instances the fits could miss the mark?

The brand I sold for was an adjustable kind and a lot of people took that as one size fits all. I got a lot of business doing fits/adjustments/reflocks on ebay saddles as they didnt hold their value 2nd hand. However this brand did have different trees and as m2m was the same price as off the peg the majority of saddles were made to a template of a specific horse. I had a few unhappy customers who coulsnt understand that the saddle could never be adjusted to fit because the tree didnt fit their horse.

Rambled on as usual but the bottom line is that more or less it's simple to fit a saddle to a horse but simple doesnt equate easy. There are so many other factors and the rider themself is a big part but often people dont look to themself and/or arent willing to change or pay for what needs done (e.g. physio for them) to help the saddle fit.

In the age of social media it's a pretty thankless job. I did it circa 2009-2012 when fb wasnt as big as now and even logging on and seeing I'd been tagged in posts gave me anxiety! Thankfully they were all good ones but I always had the fear that one wouldn't be. I mean I'm sure people slagged me off but at least they didnt tag me in it! I've seen good trainers have their reputation dragged through the mud by sly fb rants etc and unfortunately that seems to be the new normal in this SM mad world

 

[honetpot]

My daughter makes and alters wedding dresses, some of them are extremely expensive, and nearly all are altered to fit, the final fitting being done as close to the wedding as possible. The alteration cost sometimes hundreds of pounds for a garment that may be worn for twelve hours, perhaps the idea that a saddle should fit even four weeks after fitting, is just wrong, because keeping a horse in a stable body score condition is just too difficult for a lot of owners.
When I was a child I rode for a small dealer, you had your own saddle which went on everything you rode, only occasionally did you swap saddles if you thought something didn't fit. The saddles consisted of the very old frying pan saddles, and the odd slightly more modern saddle, perhaps 1950's, often you could see and feel the tree through the seat. I suppose what they all had in common was they all had little shape underneath, they were not constructed to fit a particular horse, and horses as a rule were not so fat.
I agree there was more choice in the eighties, I had a saddle made in 1979 by a saddler in his workshop, I chose the width of the tree and the hand picked the leather off his rack, it cost £120, and in lieu of an engagement ring. At that time he said there were only three sizes of tree he could order, all the fit was sorted on the flocking, and I used that saddle for the next fifteen years. They were literally built to last a lifetime, I have one still in use that I have owned for thirty years, and it was second hand when I bought it.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

Thanks for posting TPO.

I can absolutely see both sides and have seen (while I was on livery) saddlers trying to help the horse when the owner was resistant to listening.

I have also had two saddlers try to fit my chestnut mare in saddles that were never going to work (but I didn't realise that at the time). It was very hard because I was coming back into owning horses for the first time after my spinal injury and I didn't want to compromise on the horse's comfort in any way, so I felt very let down. Thankfully the third fitter I tried was used to fitting arab type backs and sorted everything out. I actually wish that the first two had just said 'sorry we don't stock saddles for that type of horse' rather than trying to make something sort of work.

 

[Apizz2019]

I'll try and keep it short but not a strong point of mine!

A few years ago I had a really bad experience with a saddle fitter. Finally the fitter agreed in writing that the saddle was made wrong and refunded me the purchase price. I was left out of pocket for the fitting fee, postage to receive and return the saddle but if I had to be out anything rsther a few hundred for that than a few thousand for thr saddle.

Their service the whole way through was awful/non existent and it was very stressful because the saddle was thousands and useless. They told me I'd have the saddle in 6wks and iirc it was 13 then it took weeks to get a resolution. There was no communication about the delays and when I chased up the delivery it took a long time to get a reply despite then reading the message. I did call a few times too.

I posted about the experience on here previously when a poster specifically asked about buying this type of saddle. The fitter stalks my posts & their business name on here so got admin to remove it (it was only facts that I could prove with her messages and the photos of the saddle) and then messaged me calling me a liar. It did amuse me that their message saying the saddle was fine and that I was lying was directly below their message admitting that I was right and the saddle was wrong.

Anyhows, getting to my point...

I was in contact with an internet stranger via fb marketplace. They were talking about getting a made to measure saddle and directly asked me if I had used this person.

I admitted that I had and that it was a very bad experience. I advised that they learn from my mistake and get a refund policy in writing should the saddle arrive and not fit.

Was I wrong to do that?

I really wish someone had given me the heads up. I found out afterwards that I wasn't alone with having a bad experience and met a few people at a show (after overhearing them bad mouthing the fitter) who also weren't happy with the service.

I have never said/written anything that wasn't true and that I couldn't back up/prove.

So basically would you give people the heads up that you wish you'd been given before using the services of someone or so you think people can/should make their own mistakes?

Absolutely 100%!

I had a nightmare with The Saddle Company - a made to measure saddle that wasn't made to measure, wasn't the size it should have been and was just a disaster from start to finish.

I had to get very tough and send a letter before action, before the fitter got their act together and stopped trying to pass me from pillar to post.

I wouldn't touch their saddles or fitters again with a 100ft bargepole, which is sad as their saddles are great for some and I know they do have good fitters, as I've seen great feedback and recommendations for some of them.

Unfortunately, there are bad and good in all areas - vets, dentists, physios, fitters etc. There is no escaping this.

Everything is very much horses for courses, pardon the pun. What works for one, doesn't for another.

But I'd not hesitate to give anyone a truthful account of my experience if I were asked directly about that individual or company.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

In my very short flash in the pan time as a saddle fitter for one brand my take away was that the problem with saddle fitting was the owners ?

The clients that stuck out:

One tall and heavy set woman had a wee native (14hh ish). Horse was older, lame and clearly had some sort of hock issues going on. The saddle didnt fit and tou could see/feel bruising on horses back. The rider simply didnt fit in the size of saddle that the horse could accommodate.

I let her feel over the horses back and feel the bruising/see the reaction so she knew what was going on.

I walked and trotted horse up for her with pointers what to look at so she could see the lameness. I advised that she call the vet to investigate further.

I hands on let her feel last rib and showed saddle placement etc. Explained that her length of thigh didnt fit in that space.

She insisted that she would be continuing to ride so I came up with the best options that I could and that was a new saddle with a bigger seat than panel size and a bigger saddle flap to take up some leg. She didnt want to spend that amount on an old horse ?

The most she would agree to was adjusting current saddle. I can do it on site but told her it would be a 3wk wait, in my head thinking it would give the bruising time to heal. Again I advised a vet and if not a vet at the very least a body worker or physio. Owner says that she herself gets sports massages all the time and they are great so I emphasis the benefits for her horse.

I rock up 3wks later and the bruising had healed. Owner says "see horse didnt need any treatments he's fine" ? refit saddle and rider rides in it. School has mirrors so I point out politely all the ways she doesnt fit the saddle and how it'll hurt the horse the same way as before. I was told shes not getting another horse and not keeping this one and not riding it so tough.

I know she bad mouthed me as not having a clue how to fit a saddle or knowing about horses because she is fine in her horse and there is nothing wrong with how her horse moves. She tried to phone and message me a few times to get me back after that but I ignored her (very unprofessional I know but coudlnt face seeing that genuine wee pony in pain again).

Had another client with an expensive brand of saddle that didnt come.close to fitting and was causing sore areas. Owner went on about X fitting the saddle. I didn't know X but couldn't get my head around what had gone one. So while I'm doing my thing it slips out that X did fit the saddle but to another horse!! Owner had bought this saddle from another livery because their horses were the same (?) shape ??‍ meanwhile X's name has been dragged through the mud.

A friend (?) asked me to check a saddle fit for her because her "trainer" had changed the saddle told friend to ride in trainers 18". So I check it and make owner be hands in so she can feel what I'm talking about. Owner leaves because "its boring" and she wants a coffee ?. I finish the checks of trainer and owner saddles and report back that trainers doesnt fit at all and that owner saddle is the better of the two but isnt great and if she wont change it then it needs some adjustments to flocking and pads.

Owner/friend continues to ride in trainers saddle and horse gets unhappier. Other liveries question saddle fit and she tells them I checked it and it's fine. Anyone with eyes could see it didnt fit so I look bad.

I had a lot of clients who didnt want to pay to get the right fit and were happy to "make do" at their horses expensive. I had clients say A was their usual fitter but look how awful saddle fits and later itll come out, after theyve lied, that they hadnt had a fitter out in 1yr+

I had a lot of people who had bought an adjustable saddle from ebay and didnt understand that an adjustable saddle isnt a one size fits all. People also dont understand the effects that putting wider headplates can have on the tree.

Bad riding plays a part too. Look at the shape of a horses back standing stationary with head up the head down and moving in a correct posture over the back and up the neck compared to hollow and bracing. A saddle that fits when the horse is static might not fit when moving and vice versa. The difference in fit can be a good rider vs a not so good rider. A rider than can get a horse working over its back and engaging abs is going to produce a very different shape from someone who creates a false outline or has a hollow horse.

Then there is the rider themselves. Most horse riders are squint because of mucking out, carrying heavy buckets, sitting at a desk, driving etc. You stick one of them in a saddle and they ste going to make it move. So that sore point over the horses right shoulder might be caused by saddle pressure but the saddle has slipped and is bearing down there because rider is right handed with weaker left side that has collapsed and they are gripped up with left leg. So yeah a saddle can fit a horse and rider but over time the rider effects the fit and suddenly it's a hopeless saddle fitter.

It costs a lot to carry a big stock and people generally arent prepared to pay more for fits to give a fitter the capital to have stock. It's pretty common to fit X to a horse and then person gets it cheaper from ebay. Even buying 2nd hand an extra £100 + should be budgeted in as a 2nd hand should always be reflected for it's new horse but people dont want to pay fitter fee and flocking because that doesnt make their ebay bargain as cheap.

So yeah I get that pennies can be tight but you cant make use of a fitters skills and time and simultaneously expect them to be able to afford to carry a large stock which would be the ideal.

There are fitters who only sell one brand so they might sell a less than perfect fit if it's the best fit they can get. I would doubt that many of them can afford to carry every model with every tree option or even have bare trees. So I guess in those instances the fits could miss the mark?

The brand I sold for was an adjustable kind and a lot of people took that as one size fits all. I got a lot of business doing fits/adjustments/reflocks on ebay saddles as they didnt hold their value 2nd hand. However this brand did have different trees and as m2m was the same price as off the peg the majority of saddles were made to a template of a specific horse. I had a few unhappy customers who coulsnt understand that the saddle could never be adjusted to fit because the tree didnt fit their horse.

Rambled on as usual but the bottom line is that more or less it's simple to fit a saddle to a horse but simple doesnt equate easy. There are so many other factors and the rider themself is a big part but often people dont look to themself and/or arent willing to change or pay for what needs done (e.g. physio for them) to help the saddle fit.

In the age of social media it's a pretty thankless job. I did it circa 2009-2012 when fb wasnt as big as now and even logging on and seeing I'd been tagged in posts gave me anxiety! Thankfully they were all good ones but I always had the fear that one wouldn't be. I mean I'm sure people slagged me off but at least they didnt tag me in it! I've seen good trainers have their reputation dragged through the mud by sly fb rants etc and unfortunately that seems to be the new normal in this SM mad world

I can definitely understand the frustrating from dealing with people like that. Horse people (even though I am one) can be incredibly frustrating. That's why when people suggested horsey jobs to be when I was younger (just because they knew I liked horses) I said absolutely not.

My confusion was it sounded like sbloom was saying there are many opinions on fit from the saddler. So A says my saddle fits, B says it does not at all, and C says it could with some adjustment. That's what confuses me. It either works for me and the horse or it doesn't. I will pay and do pay very well for good service and a saddle that is good for us, I pay for honest advice. People are less polite here so you do get more direct communication, but they're also not very knowledgeable in some cases so it's worthless.

There was a time when I gave a large amount of money to a good Master Saddler to come from Belgium to Germany. I was desperate. All the money in the world couldn't have bought be a good fitting saddle and service in my area. Just sheer incompetence or wanting to make money on a sale. It's not that they told me things I didn't want to hear, because I was open to anything and everything. This saddler got me into a new saddle that finally worked. No sore horse or rider and I could finally ride in the right position without fighting my saddle. There was no magic or a** kissing, it was just pure competence on her part.

The industry here is extremely wild. As in you need zero education, training, or proof of competence. You can essentially just go at it. Or some do get a certificate from a local big name brand after a 2 day course. There are some, however, that not only educate themselves but have a true passion for it, and have a genuine interest. When I find a good one, I praise them at any chance (online reviews, recommendations, and so on). I want there to be people that want to be Saddlers. I want there to be good ones.

There is a huge company here that also extends into other parts of Europe that has hundreds of saddles (various brands). They're the only company like it that I know. They're fitters seem to be ok, but if you have a good eye and feel yourself, their inventory alone is a huge advantage.

I get sometimes inventory is small, or the fitter has nothing that works. I don't hold that against them. I expect them to be honest about it and I pay them for their time. I can't expect them to be able to have a saddle for everyone. It's a bonus if they can point you in the right direction.

I do see your point re people though. I would pull my hair out.

 

[Baywonder]

Being a saddle fitter can be incredibly taxing - especially when there are always others who obviously know so much more about saddle fitting than you do.

A prime example is a saddle that was placed too far forward by a (very pleasant) novice owner. Advice was given to the owner regarding moving the saddle back to sit where it should be, and the reasons why etc. The yard instructor then walked past and announces the saddle is too far back, and needs to be put where it was originally. The owner, not wanting to upset the instructor, went with what the instructor had said. I shudder to think of the damage being caused to that poor horse.

Whilst everyone has to start somewhere, short saddle fitting courses are only the start of being a (hopefully) competent fitter. Short courses and subsequent qualifications are a start, but little emphasis or credit is given to those who have years of practical, hands-on experience behind them, instead of a piece of paper gained after a couple of days. Again, there will be good and bad fitters, but the good ones treat their job like a way of life. They care ultimately about the horse (first) and rider (second), and it is almost a passion / obsession for them. The good ones will have very happy customers who will be more than willing to recommend them by word of mouth, social media, etc. The bad ones will start to accumulate a trail of unhappy customers in their wake, which will inevitably grow over time.

Whilst there is common ground, there are some differences with every fitter about how a saddle should fit and be fitted. Some are just out to make a quick sale of the most expensive saddle they stock ? Others will, if it is possible, alter the current saddle to fit. Many times in the past my DH has been called out about a new saddle, but he has advised the owner they don't really need one, and he has altered the current one to fit there and then.

Shoddy workmanship is another bugbear. I cringe at some of the saddles advertised, and my only thought is, if the ones used in advertising campaigns are this bad, what on earth will the customer end up with? Stitching and panels are two examples of things that can be all over the place with a saddle. Lots are advertised as using x, y, z materials as they are more luxurious / expensive and it will cost extra etc. In reality, they are usually a cheaper material to use - but obviously the customer is not told this!

So yes, once again, if you get a good service or product, by all means give an honest answer about it.

Sorry - rant over.

 

[sbloom]

Would you expect to get two identical opinions from surgeons as to the absolute best route for treatment for a person? Possibly not.

I learned from a non-SMS fitter who specialises in wider horses. We fit flatter, wider rails than is standard, with well constructed panels that work for flatter backs. I would not expect my way of fitting to work with other saddles that are made with narrower rails, they are different paradigms. Of course I feel that the rest of the industry should fit more like me, because I think my way is the best, however I see plenty of saddles that I would not fit that way that work perfectly well, horse and rider are happy, and I will leave the saddle as is.

If a horse is sore then you'll get different opinions as to why, depending on the paradigm. For instance I am currently working with a customer whose physio has told them the channel is too narrow. I am firmly of the belief that it isn't, that the rail shape is wrong, yet I have already been told on a saddle fitters group that that brand can't possibly have too narrow a rail because it's been developed so well with a ton of technology. I'm glad that Zurich and, to a certain extent, Centaur are with me, because I think rail shape is a massive problem.

I have been out to a vet-accompanied fitting where they put the saddle on about 3" over the scapula, turned to me and said "you see the problem?" (ie that it was tipping back, well no sh** Sherlock) and I was expected to take their opinion on why the saddle didn't fit!!

Can you pass the exams and still be an inadequate fitter? I think you all can answer that! I have had a lengthy in depth meeting with a qualified fitter, who happens not to fit saddles actively but has massive involvement in the industry, and would not let them anywhere near a horse with a saddle.

Come back? I firmly believe the very best way to buy is from stock, with a 14 day trial. But horses do change shape and much as we try to fit with an eye to the future you should be a fly on the wall when I ask bodyworkers how much and in what direction they expect to see change. If they don't know then I can only take an educated guess!

Can flocking make up for tree shape? A grey area, I firmly believe the tree should be right, but that too many trees are too narrow in the rails which is what everything else is trying to compensate for, so I'm probably not the best person to ask! Some brands stock very few tree shapes yet CAN get saddles working really well on all sorts of shapes and sizes, because they're biomechanically suited to allowing a horse to work over its back.

Bare tree fitting? Unless you carry several widths in each seat size it's arguably not actually that useful, the width changes the rail shape slightly and it's hard to judge until it's in roughly the right width. I prefer to know the generic tree shape (how well do generalist saddle fitters understand the tree shape of every one of the 10+ brands they might stock, let alone all the others they're expected to check and adjust)...and when one brand might use a different workshop when super busy THAT changes the fit completely, the panel shape is different, the seat is webbed and strained differently. Very little is standardised. If you want workshops to use standardised hi tec methods for manufacturing on wooden treed saddles then you're probably looking abroad for your manufacture. A good English saddle maker will work brilliantly by eye (hopefully!), but they'll make their shape of saddle and the next saddler will make it a bit differently.

Massive selection of second hand? Many old designs are now defunct, we can argue about whether they did really fit, but how many want to put an inch wide channel on a 2-3" wide spine? I sure won't. Other than that the internet has killed the trade, it's just as much work to fit a used saddle as a new one on the whole, sometimes more, yet the margins aren't there, and most of us are a LONG way from getting rich, many are overwhelmed, burned out and otherwise not sure how long they can afford to stay in the industry. There will always be newbies wanting to get into it, it seems such fun, and must surely be better money than shovelling sh**.....?!

There are other overseas brands growing in popularity here that believe they have it solved - a very wide head, a very flexible tree, and a very wide channel. However, they fit to the shoulder not the ribcage angle. They think their way is better, but I disagree, and would 100% say the fitting paradigm can't be applied to regular English type saddles.

Until we have way better understandings and diagnostics we are left in the hands of a good fitter and their understanding and feel. If we had only one way of fitting it would do everyone a huge disservice as there would be horses that will not go in a saddle deigned and fitted that way.

And I 100% endorse TPOs analysis and experience. A massive majority of issues that crop up with saddles I have fitted are to do with the rider/owner and their asymmetries/expectations/approach, or with brewing problems with the horse. I am even moving to take on a brand that demands greater input before the saddle is fitted, even before the first fitting, to get horse and rider as straight and functional as possible. It reduces the "saddle failure/customer disappointment" rate to the absolute minimum.

One last point, one of the biggest debates between fitters on here and IRL is whether, and when, you can fit beyond the last rib with an English style saddle. Please just accept that we do not know enough to be able to fully answer that, we can only go on our own experiences and decide what to do based on the designs we like to fit.

I could go on and on but ultimately we don't often expect other professions to agree 100% it's just that the cost with a saddle is potentially huge, and an immediate one.

 

[Meowy Catkin]

I have found this thread very interesting so a big thank you to everyone who has posted.

 

[HorsesRule2009]

sbloom can i ask what you mean by the rails of a saddle? It's a term I haven't heard before.

Also I feel saddle fit is so subjective as all horses and riders are different. Take a horse with to riders and the saddle may be fantastic with the one combination yet not fit - well more cause issue- with the 2nd rider due to the way they ride or the way they sit?
I'm massively for having a saddle with a trial period and try as hard as possible ( read force myself) to ride every day for that period and in as many situations as possible, - flat/jump/hack/fast work/hills etc.

i also think as well you only have to look at people and the way we all like our clothes/shoes etc to fit slightly differently and I feel horses are very much the same.
My old mare was a nightmare re saddle fit and was very particular with what she liked. I was very lucky as the saddler allowed me to try numerus saddles and with trial periods until we found something that she was eventually happy in. And I think if a lot of fitters had seen what she ended up with they'd have probably all agreed it shouldn't have fitted/worked but she went the best ever in that saddle and her back never appeared to become sore from the setup and we had regular physio/chiro sessions to keep check.
I personally feel a saddler/fitter is a completely relentless task and it appears very hard to please people.
I'm not a fitter myself but have been a groom for 15 odd years and now how subjective the industry is.

 

[sbloom]

The rails run from front to back and form the twist - see the Latif research I posted above. And thank you, again you're bang on. One chiro vet (very experienced, great reputation) said on the phone to me "I'd hate to be you, it's not what fits, it's what the bl***y horse likes!". Yet so many on this thread still thinking it must be straightforwards!

 

[ycbm]

Can you pass the exams and still be an inadequate fitter? I think you all can answer that! I have had a lengthy in depth meeting with a qualified fitter, who happens not to fit saddles actively but has massive involvement in the industry, and would not let them anywhere near a horse with a saddle.

SB, what hope does the ordinary mortal have if you, as a highly experienced professional fitter who is very aware of horse physiology, are able to write this about others in the industry? I've fitted my own for years now because of seeing my own and other's problems with qualified fitters. How can forum members who want a saddle fitter tell the good from the bad, can you give any tips?
.

 

[bouncing_ball]

I have had SO many bodyworkers, and now one who has become a cutting edge saddle designer, but was never a fitter, comment that our job is tough, and usually thankless, and that they don't envy us one bit. So please try not to trash an entire profession.

What is your view on their saddle? Have you seen one?

 

[CanteringCarrot]

The rails run from front to back and form the twist - see the Latif research I posted above. And thank you, again you're bang on. One chiro vet (very experienced, great reputation) said on the phone to me "I'd hate to be you, it's not what fits, it's what the bl***y horse likes!". Yet so many on this thread still thinking it must be straightforwards!

I just thought the part about both horse and rider being comfortable was straight forward? Is it not? Sure, there are different ways to get there.