Show Jumping - Behind closed doors?

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My "friend" was adament she was sending her horse to a very well known british SJer who was going to electrocute her horse's legs because it was careless with its legs.

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Again, name? Why are we protecting these people?

One of mine went through a phase of four-fault-itis. He'd never jump any higher than he had to, no matter what the height of the class was. He'd "slither" over each fence, making for very heart-in-mouth spectating!

We tried taking him XC to encourage him to be more careful; didn't work as he knew he could slither all he liked there and nothing would fall. Then we realised he only ever hit ONE fence a day, and he touched them all, so why did he then stop slithering? He must hear the fence fall behind him!

So, when he was next in the ring, we'd pop him over the practice fence one more time, and as he landed, gently pull on the wing so that the pole fell. He'd hear it, go into the ring and jump clear.

Cruelty is not necessary
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Reputation proceeds people in equestrian sport - almost everything at the top is done by word of mouth rather than by advertisement.

Also, if I mentioned to someone that I was sending my horse to a well known rider and they'd heard said rider electricuted his horses' legs, I'm quite sure I'd rethink... and pass on that info to others.
 
Maybe, nevertheles you can't just go bandying about peoples names on the internet - haven't you heard of libel and slander? Rightly or wrongly I very much doubt you'll get anyone to name anyone, so I suggest you stop baying for blood because its wasting your breath.
 
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Last one i heard of, was electric poles - it covers up some of the obvious over rapped double leg sanp's but is equally as effective.

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Nope, sorry, me no comprende how it works
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Not that I advocate in any way.

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My "friend" was adament she was sending her horse to a very well known british SJer who was going to electrocute her horse's legs because it was careless with its legs.

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I don't get how that would work either. I'd've thought contact with a pole when jumping would be too fleeting, presumably, to get a shock...
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A few years back I did a summers work for someone, who at the time was a fairly big name in sj (not the very top but pretty big), nations cup, big hickstead classes, international travel etc.

Draw reins (including jumping in them) were routine. The odd spur rub also routine.
But I never once witnessed any rapping or other such techniques used. In fact the horses, once established, were rarely jumped at home.

I wouldn't doubt there is a small minority where these underhand practices occur, but to be honest they are probably grasping at straws and trying to make up for their shortfalls as a rider.

Pro's need their horses to jump well for them because the horse wants to. Once you resort to bullying tactics the horse will loose faith in rider and never do the job. Any horseman worth his salt would know this. The rest just ruin their horses.
 
well i use pinch boots in the hind and they don't actually hurt the horse. they work on pressure points. i only ever use them right before going into the show ring. and for rapping i think it could be a useful method but should never be practiced by someone who doesn't know what they are doing. Then it could very easily make things worse. My outlook on things if you have a careful horse that you're showing in the big grand prix classes, but he/she could jump a little better, then use some sort of tool to make them even better such as pinch/weighted boots. if you are spending that large of an entry fee for a grand prix. you want your horse to be on its best performance.

sorry for my poor grammar
 
Munchkin said:
Lucyann, this forum (particularly NL) is full of pink and fluffy people .
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HHO? :eek: Fluffy? :confused:

I think you could call the members of this forum most things but fluffy is not a word that comes readily to my mind.


OP, I think show jumping will be the same as anything else, where there is money to be made then practices will not always be 'above board' shall we say? Everyone has heard about rapping, and the bottle tops, hedgehog skins, spikes on poles etc - what truth there is I have no idea as I have never worked in SJ.

I have, however, worked in showing circles, and I can tell you that what goes on behind closed doors is not always pretty.
 
Someone said you tell a lot by reaction of horse when it stops. My mare panics after a refusal and is hard work to hold. I have never used pinch or weighted boots. Never rapped never hit her yet she panics. She loves to jump and stops rarely but dirty. All my previous instructors have wanted me to hit her for refusing but given her panic I don't see how it would help. A friend's mare used to knock up cricket scores just rolling poles. It's had weighted and pinch boots. No longer uses them and it now Jumps lovely fast clears and looks to really enjoy itself.
 
^^^ Spot on, this is why a lot of showjumpers will not rap or play tricks on their horses, obviously there are exceptions to this. Eventually most rapped horses turn into dirty stoppers at which point they can't be sold to amateurs as reliable but not careful enough. Our yard is a SJ yard and no horse is "carefulled up" in the extreme ways that have been described, if it is not good enough (careful) it is sold to a suitable home and another horse bred or bought. Also do not underestimate the number of people who are novice/amateurs and want to send the horse to a SJ yard for this treatment - they get extremely annoyed when professionals refuse to go along with it.

Some of the tricks I am aware of are clipping legs and applying deep heat/astringents, heavily weighted boots (light ones within BSJA rules do help some horses with awareness at the back without being cruel if put on correctly), ramming wings at an angle to ensure the poles can't come off, extremely weighted poles when loose jumping, false ground lines, false rails, sprung poles, stick rapping, internally sharp boots, tack fitted in such a way it causes pain.

I have a horse that was with a top UK showjumper in which time he won a lot of money. He also displays all the classic signs of a rapped horse. Happy at a show, very suspicious at home and when loose jumped, total tantrum if someone is standing next to a fence (makes for hellish collecting ring warm ups). A good example would be yesterday when he was asked to trot to a 40cm cross pole (normally fine), cue total nervous breakdown as all the other fences on the menage where full up. Obviously to me I just wanted to warm up, to him it must be a trick, as when we where working in another horse was jumping that fence as a large parallel. Same goes if you are loose jumping and drop the height of the fence. Open water he has been taught to jump by showing him the fence and then sneaking the water sheet in on his way round - he is far less spooky if there is water behind a low fence.

He is a wonderful horse who will only ever have one pole, he'll never have another and bust a gut to keep clear with no pressure at all from me. As someone else suggested earlier the best way with these is to tap a pole down in the collecting ring if they are in a tap happy mood (and I even do this with extreme caution and ensure he has given it a good rattle). No other tricks are necessary the horse is careful enough to care. He has been with me 4 years and we have worked on many trust issues and he is now very honest, but as yesterday has reminded me he'll always have issues that crop up - scenarios he remembers that I don't know about. I would never again buy a horse I thought had been rapped or tricked in any way, they are pretty stressful to jump as very unpredictable.
 
Many years ago I witnessed rapping in the warm up area of Olympia - we are talking 25 years or so ago! Don't expect they do it in full view of everyone now! I also was talking to a top physio last week while she treated my mare and she told me that chilli paste was used amongst other things to "sensitise" the legs.
 
I showjump at a lot of BS shows, know a lot of showjumpers, and have worked and tried horses at various yards at various times when I might have been expected to have seen anything that might have been hidden. I'm also a lawyer and legal academic. And I have never seen anything along the lines that the OP is suggesting. True there are a small handful of competitors who are known to be a bit rough, and some yards, particularly one on the continent and those associated with it, that have a dodgy reputation (in terms of doping). But most showjumpers I know who do it for a living (ie combine it with dealing/teaching) really spoil their horses and treat them sympathetically. Basically most horses won't jump, or try hard, unless they have a good relationship with their rider. You need them to produce that little bit extra sometimes when you make a mistake, and they won't do that if they hate the rider. So ill treatment is totally counter-productive.

What you don't get is the type of rider who ruins horses by treating them like fluffy toys, giving them mixed messages and spoiling them and then claiming their horse is "difficult".

There is far, far more ill treatment of horses by your average non-competitive rider. I actually think its more of a case of attention seeking and slightly hystrionic, in that they are revealing some great secret that the rest of us mere mortals don't know about.

I've never used weighted boots for training, but I don't think they're particularly cruel. And draw reins are used by people in many disciplines, why would you pick them out as being cruel as opposed to someone yanking a pony club pony in the mouth in a snaffle? As for rapping, most showjumpers want a horse that hates to hit a pole, if you had to spend training sessions with two other people hoisting a pole around, you'd not only end up with a horse too nervous to jump and likely to hit things, but you'd be quicker just buying one of the many horses that doesn't like to hit a pole and concentrate on encouraging its bascule, shape and form over the fence.

I've got a 5 year old that hasn't jumped much but hates to hit a pole and already has many double clears BSJA. He wasn't particularly expensive and is not unusual. Hes certainly never been rapped. Its more common for a horse to dislike hitting poles than to be careless, if not, you wouldn't bother paying the extry fees for BSJA!

I suggest you go down to your average DIY livery yard and poke around there for dubious malpractices, where you might actually find something more worth directing your attention to - but not perhaps so much smoke without fire for yourself?
 
ihatework said:
Draw reins (including jumping in them) were routine. The odd spur rub also routine.
But I never once witnessed any rapping or other such techniques used. In fact the horses, once established, were rarely jumped at home.
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Thats the truth. Most showjumpers don't do a lot of jumping at home once the horse is established. Horses only have so many jumps in them. And to get them established, if you did half the stuff "whispered" about on here, you'd only end up creating a nervous stopper.

As for electrocuting the horse's legs, I think that would possibly defy the laws of physics...
 
Mega Post Bump ;)

I've worked with a pretty well known showjumper... And NEVER seen anything like the OP is describing.

Horses came to him, if they liked jumping then he worked with them... if they didn't want to jump then they weren't forced and another career was found for them.

The odd growl and a smack for the lazy ones but no rapping etc.
 
Mithras - cannot quote as I'm on my phone, but my thoughts exactly r.e. Laws of physics! The birds that sit on the electricity pylon wires don't feel a thing, so a horse in mid-air with no "earth" isn't going to feel anything off an electified pole either, is he? Unless its some kind of device similar to an electric shock dog collar, and they give a well timed zap??? I have no idea. Whatever it is, its a dirty trick. Like rapping, and sharp/spiked poles. There's no better way of teaching a horse to be wary of jumping than to employ these methods IMO.

(PS. This thread is ancient! Its a zombie thread - its been brought back from the dead! :p )
 
Most SJ people I've been around also won't "make" a horse a jumper by any means necessary because it doesn't work.

I sent my homebred mare away to a local pro a couple of years ago. I'm very suspicious of people so I was pretty much there everyday and after work is when my mare trained. I just felt she'd be better off with a pro than myself. It had been a long time since I was jumping ect. For the most part riding wise things were ok until the mare started going up in height. Thing is Abba will take on anything no matter how wrong she meets it. Very rarely had 4 faults and on her worse day she had 8. Both times trying to get her rider out of the jam he got her into. She beats herself up terribly if she hits one. She really is very careful.

I watched this guy riding other horses and riding wasn't an issue. I later learned, thankfully, not on Abba, that he has a fierce temper. I was seeing odd injuries that didn't add up to the story. When I saw with my own eyes what this person was capable of, he was never allowed near her again. He's out of the country now and really never needs to set up on his own again.

At any rate, she was a hot mess to begin with when starting her back. Thing is I had some life changes this year and other things going on so it meant no jumping but it also gave me the time to school her properly and for me to be the better rider she needs. So not too upset at the end of the day.

This mare will never stop and she gives 110% all the time. She gets upset if she doesn't know what your asking and over tries then. So maybe I am a fluffy bunny but I will always give her the benefit of the doubt in anything she does for me. I've had her since birth. I know her.

I've worked for one of the best in America. Never ever saw anything devious. I don't personally use weighted boots. I don't need to. I don't rap or use any tricks. They can either jump or not. But there are horses that do enjoy jumping. I face Abba towards anything and she never questions, she just says, don't worry I've got this. No point in gadgets or in ruining what she already has. I could ruin that quite easy by overfacing her or in my not being so confident. Anyway, just don't paint all SJ's with the same brush.

Terri
 
Laura-C said:
Mithras - cannot quote as I'm on my phone, but my thoughts exactly r.e. Laws of physics! The birds that sit on the electricity pylon wires don't feel a thing, so a horse in mid-air with no "earth" isn't going to feel anything off an electified pole either, is he? Unless its some kind of device similar to an electric shock dog collar, and they give a well timed zap??? I have no idea. Whatever it is, its a dirty trick. Like rapping, and sharp/spiked poles. There's no better way of teaching a horse to be wary of jumping than to employ these methods IMO.

(PS. This thread is ancient! Its a zombie thread - its been brought back from the dead! :p )
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Ah, it'll be the post-HOYS jealousy thread then...
 
There are "dubious" (and downright cruel) practices that go on on a regular basis on the majority of SJ yards i have been on. From lack of basic care to kicking the crap out of the animal for non comliance.

One of our "top" SJs indoor school is also known as the "torture chamber". Another of our top boys has "invented" the most innovative way of strapping a horses head down which involves 2 stirrup leathers attached from girth to head which allows them no upwards movement (he advises that it be used by fairly novice riders). Horses are regularly ridden (on all the SJ yards i have visited) in draw reins by people who have absolutely no idea how to ride in them, causing the horses massive discomfort. Has anyone had a good look in a bit box on a SJ yard? Bike chains, thin wires etc etc.

I have also witnessed electric spurs, "burning" products, spiked boots, weighted boots (anyone who thinks they are not a problem to use should have a look at a horse that reacts to them badly and the damage they can do to a horses confidence). Horses that stop while away at a show comes out the next day at home and is presented to a fence it has no hope of jumping and gets a beating for stopping. Sore/cut mouths, spur marks (i am talking scabbed over here too) seem to be the norm. The list goes on and on.

I often wonder why people are in the "sport" and how they sleep at night.
 
hedgehog1 said:
... most of them are just strict but fair and dont do anything to their horses that would make you go 'oh my god thats terrible'.
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Interested to know what you mean by 'strict'...

natinthehat said:
well i use pinch boots in the hind and they don't actually hurt the horse. they work on pressure points.
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What actually happens when the pressure points are 'worked on'? What does the horse feel and how does he react?
 
BoolavogueDC said:
Maybe, nevertheles you can't just go bandying about peoples names on the internet - haven't you heard of libel and slander? Rightly or wrongly I very much doubt you'll get anyone to name anyone, so I suggest you stop baying for blood because its wasting your breath.
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You can only be done for libel or slander if the accusation is untrue. Where money or prestige is involved I think some of the human race are capable of anything. Call me cynical if you like :(
 
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Personally I'm not into SJ, but even I know of cruel practises here & abroad. SJ is not alone, there are the minority in all forms of sport who will abuse to win. When my youngster needed backing this year I sent her to a local pro SJ. He is the most beautiful, sympathetic rider & did a great job. He may not be a 'big name', but I'd recommend him to anyone who wanted their horse to SJ with kindness & compassion by a competitive rider.

I teach judo, which includes teaching some self-defense. I show moves to put pressure (usually very gently) on pressure points. How does it feel? Ruddy painful!
 
I dont think its very fair to just say it's showjumper's that do things like this. I have heard some awful thing's what people do in showing, Dressage. My thaught's are if a horse has to be pushed/ forced to do something then they should not doing what ever they are doing. And I dont mean just giving your horse a bit of tough love when they are being naughty.

I would never ever do anything like this to any of my horses.
 
Hmm...old thread or not...I know of quite a few incidences at the top. Not very recent ones, but some quite recent.

A certain SJer beat the living daylights out of a mare I had (when she was with her previous owners) with a piece of hose because she wouldn't load. Same person killed a horse by beating it with a hose across its hindquarters. Horse was fidgeting on concrete, fly kicked, SJer always carried piece of hose and walloped horse. Horse jumped, slipped and fell on the concrete and crushed its ribcage.

Hedgehog skins on jump poles, anyone? Chilli paste on shaved skin?

Rapping, oh yes...

Oh, and the whip with the mini taser in the end.
 
natinthehat said:
well i use pinch boots in the hind and they don't actually hurt the horse. they work on pressure points. i only ever use them right before going into the show ring. and for rapping i think it could be a useful method but should never be practiced by someone who doesn't know what they are doing. Then it could very easily make things worse. My outlook on things if you have a careful horse that you're showing in the big grand prix classes, but he/she could jump a little better, then use some sort of tool to make them even better such as pinch/weighted boots. if you are spending that large of an entry fee for a grand prix. you want your horse to be on its best performance.
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Well, you're special......
 
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