PapaverFollis
Well-Known Member
It's weird seeing feet without long toes....
How about this transformation. 1 year since the shoe fell off.
How about this transformation. 1 year since the shoe fell off.
Show me your hoof transformations!
- Thread starter PaulnasherryRocky
- Start date
IrishMilo
Well-Known Member
Bonkers how much more useful the foot will become if you let it. Look at that frog!
PapaverFollis
Well-Known Member
It's the frog that surprised me. I hadn't really noticed because we basically decided to not put shoes back on and chucked him out for 8 months. I mean I was doing foot care but I wasnt paying much attention. Just checked he was sound on them before lobbing back on 4 months ago. He has had farrier trims then our trimming. Took a photo for curiosity and was like "holymacoroni" (no swearies now) when I compared them. I mean when the shoe came off he obviously was somewhat lacking in hoof wall. That was due to an unfortunate shoe pulling habit and no-ones fault. But I did not realise the heel was so contracted! He was being shod previously by my ex-farrier too and seeing these two photos has vindicated my decision to not have that farrier back.... the disintegration of the hoof wall I could forgive, the contracted heel not so much.
Reacher
Well-Known Member
What is amazing and depressing is how common is the shape of hoof in IrishMilo’s top photo. It’s seen more or less as normal. So people (including professionals) don’t notice it or realise it’s a problem in the making.
And yes, I learned the hard way.
And yes, I learned the hard way.
Just found this shod pic. Same foot a year apart. He spent about 9 months in shoes before I got fed up of watching the foot change for the worse. Added lines for anyone who needs a visual.
Aug 2019, looking a bit bullnose, long toe and HPA slightly broken back.
Sept 2020, now using barefoot trimmer.
He's slowly getting some concavity to the foot and the frog is opening up. Now the sole isn't being trimmed into oblivion he is also fine on all surfaces.
Reacher
Well-Known Member
Looking at them side by side is amazing!
IrishMilo
Well-Known Member
Every few months I would have a talk with the farrier (who is known as one of the best around here - he works with all local vet practices and does remedial farriery), and I’d say “Do you not think the toe looks a bit long and the heel’s starting to run forward a bit?” and he’d assure me they were fine. His answer to the footyness was “Yeah he’s got thin soles, you probably want to stick some shoes on him”. Nothing about diet, management, walking on varying terrain, talking about possibly changing the way the foot was being trimmed. It’s terrible.
HashRouge
Well-Known Member
My sister's horse had the most extraordinary angle change after his shoes came off - this is at about 6 months I think, and after a stint at Rockley. That toe was never trimmed - it grew out on its own shortly after this photo.
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
That's a great example of the toe shortening just by the strengthening of the back of the hoof from a correct landing.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
But surely leaving the toe so long creates a lot of unnecessary extra leverage on the suspensory apparatus before it breaks off?
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
This is the reason I stopped having my old pony shod about 15 years ago. The farrier just said he had bad feet, he couldn't keep shoes on and his feet were constantly abscessing. The farrier struggled to find wall to nail to. After having his shoes off they improved and once the nail holes grew out he never got another abscess and his walls were solid. He never really got good enough front feet to do a lot of barefoot miles , his feet had got horrifically contracted and he never grew much frog but booted he was fine and he was sound and did many miles and many more years.
HashRouge
Well-Known Member
It didn't break off - it wore down. Nic (Barker) felt he would be badly lamed if we tried to trim the toe back and, as he was fabulously sound at the point this photo was taken we decided to let him guide us. He was extremely lame when he first went to Rockley so we didn't want to go back to that. It's a shame I don't have a photo of the underside of his foot taken at the same time, because it would show that despite what you might think from the side on photo, there wasn't actually a huge amount you could have trimmed off his toes.
ETA there is a really good explanation here (by Nic) as to why she didn't trim his toes back and why we kept this up once he was home: http://rockleyfarm.blogspot.com/2012/06/bizarre-feet-of-legend.html
I do think that it is really important to be led by the horse as much as possible. This horse became consistently sounder during his time at Rockley and by the time the above photo was taken he was 100% sound and rock crunching - so do you trim because it doesn't "look" right and risk laming the horse, or do you just keep doing what you're doing and leave him to it?
This photo shows and earlier stage of the transformation:
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PapaverFollis
Well-Known Member
Do you have any sole pictures of the same foot HR? I'd be interested to see. The Rockley lady seems very against trimming at all from what I've read. It's interesting that that is her experience. I wouldn't discount it but also wonder if I would trim that toe. It would depend what the sole looked like to me. I've been trimming mine close to the white line on the toe.
ETA cross posted with edit above.
ETA cross posted with edit above.
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Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
It’s all very well to be against trimming when you have an awesome hoof wearing track like they have a Rockley .
Most of us don’t have that .
My experience is that horses do best with weekly trimming so that it’s small changes so sudden change .
a good trimmer and farrier taught me how to do it .
Most of us don’t have that .
My experience is that horses do best with weekly trimming so that it’s small changes so sudden change .
a good trimmer and farrier taught me how to do it .
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Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
It’s an epic transformation, HR, especially from the first pic, but it’s not aesthetics that concerns me, it’s mechanical forces and physics in the second pic.
I have a (rather elderly) physics A level.
I have a (rather elderly) physics A level.
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
That photo is very similar to how my pony in the last pic's feet grew after his shoes were off though I don't have any pics.
Such a great example Hashrouge on how the better hoof has to grow itself in and can't just be trimmed in.
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PapaverFollis
Well-Known Member
Looking at the pictures on the Rockley blog there wasn't much to trim without actually going beyond the white line. So I guess that one did just need to grow out. I bet the horse felt relieved when it did go!
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
OK, I have done barefoot transitions 3 times with previous horses, and they all looked brilliant. The transitions were easy as the feet were great before the shoes even came off. Apart from the nail holes growing out and the backs beefing up, there wasn't that much to see.
But... my new cob... who I have had a week...
I have before and after shots from before the farrier yesterday and after. He was sound both before and after, feet seem really strong. 6 weeks since last trim. He is still a bit wriggley to get sole shots, but here are a representative sample of side on, 1 back and 1 front.
He is recovering from lami and box rest. The front shoes were only on whilst the lami was acute, he has been barefoot all of his life.
The trim was done by a great farrier.
The trim wasn't huge, but they look a whole different ball game IMO. Just with one trim.
But... my new cob... who I have had a week...
I have before and after shots from before the farrier yesterday and after. He was sound both before and after, feet seem really strong. 6 weeks since last trim. He is still a bit wriggley to get sole shots, but here are a representative sample of side on, 1 back and 1 front.
He is recovering from lami and box rest. The front shoes were only on whilst the lami was acute, he has been barefoot all of his life.
The trim was done by a great farrier.
The trim wasn't huge, but they look a whole different ball game IMO. Just with one trim.
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Red-1, brilliant pics.
IMHO they illustrate how to ‘shorten the toe’ without ‘dumping the toe’. The breakover is much improved. And as you say, the trim wasn’t huge, but it was skilfull.
Its particularly easy to see in the white foot.
The bevelling off is called a pasture roll, isn’t it?
IMHO they illustrate how to ‘shorten the toe’ without ‘dumping the toe’. The breakover is much improved. And as you say, the trim wasn’t huge, but it was skilfull.
Its particularly easy to see in the white foot.
The bevelling off is called a pasture roll, isn’t it?
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
Not sure if it is the photos but the coronary band on the trimmed foot looks a bit more horizontal than on the untrimmed foot. It looks a bit like he's shortened the toe by trimming a bit more from the toe than the heel so changing the angle of the hoof. Fine in a horse that needs more heel but I don't think I'd want the foot to be tipped to put more weight on the front of the pedal bone in one that has just recovered from laminitis. Might just be the pics giving this impression.
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
The angles weren't perfect as I took the before shots on his first day (when he was a bit wriggley - so they are not quite on the floor), but I think the illusion is more that I clipped his legs between the before and after ones. In the white foot it actually makes the heel look longer than it started, as the coronet is now visible whereas before there was hair covering it.
The black one's heels have been brought back.
The horse had been barefoot prior to this, so although it had only been 6 weeks, there was a lot more growth than a 6 week trim on a shod foot would normally have.
I am really pleased, the before pictures look to me as if the foot will be going 'wrong' with every step, whereas the after ones look like much stronger feet. I am really pleased, this was the first time my farrier had seen this horse.
HashRouge
Well-Known Member
I do get what you are saying. The problem is, there really wasn't much you could have actually taken off his toes despite what it looks like from the side. He had a bout of mechanical lameness while still in shoes - caused, funnily enough, by having his toes trimmed too short when he was being shod to x rays by vet and remedial farrier. Vet looked at latest set of x rays, told the farrier how to trim the feet, and next thing you know he could barely walk... . Anyway, this caused his feet to pretty much completely collapse and run forward - Nic included sole shots on some of her blog posts and it does show that his whole foot was sort of stretched forward. It wasn't a case of trimming off any excess hoof and hey presto, shorter toes and better foot. We had to wait for that better foot to grow in. I would also, again, like to stress that in both the first and second photo I posted, this horse was sound. And we are talking about a horse who had been lame for quite a long time prior to having his shoes off and going to Rockley. With hooves that are doing incredibly strange things, as his were (even Nic was pretty taken aback by them, and she's obviously done a lot of rehabs), but are quite clearly improving slowly but steadily, I'm not sure I'd want to take any risks.
HashRouge
Well-Known Member
Oh I totally agree with this and I'm not against trimming at all. We sent him to Rockley because we just couldn't get him sound - it was his last chance really. Once we got him home we did our best to keep him self-trimming as much as possible but he did also see a farrier even while his toes still had the "flippers"). At that stage though he just ran the rasp round rather than trying to interfere too much with what the hooves were doing.
saalsk
Well-Known Member
I am loving seeing the photos - I am a visual person, and no amount of explanation of flare, wide frog, under run heels etc makes it so clear as a photo showing exactly that. The photo's from Red are particularly good, showing the difference a trim can make if done well.
I remember my vet saying one time, that a problem caused slowly, over time, usually needed to be resolved over time. Quick issues, often need a quick solution. Like laminitis causing a sudden/acute flare up, and needing a quick and firm intervention. A previous farrier told me that repeated bad shoeing, that isn't enough to cause lameness, but is enough to cause subtle changes over time, that eventually leads to issues, will need remedial shoes/trims to correct the issue, but done slowly over time to allow the hoof, leg and body to adapt to the new balance, just as it had to the old balance, that had been incorrect. I suppose that fits in with the fact that with bad feet, sometimes everything changes at once - diet, shoes/trims, time at grass, time inside, grazing quality, work etc. All those changes at once must be tough on feet trying to change and adapt too !
I remember my vet saying one time, that a problem caused slowly, over time, usually needed to be resolved over time. Quick issues, often need a quick solution. Like laminitis causing a sudden/acute flare up, and needing a quick and firm intervention. A previous farrier told me that repeated bad shoeing, that isn't enough to cause lameness, but is enough to cause subtle changes over time, that eventually leads to issues, will need remedial shoes/trims to correct the issue, but done slowly over time to allow the hoof, leg and body to adapt to the new balance, just as it had to the old balance, that had been incorrect. I suppose that fits in with the fact that with bad feet, sometimes everything changes at once - diet, shoes/trims, time at grass, time inside, grazing quality, work etc. All those changes at once must be tough on feet trying to change and adapt too !
Reacher
Well-Known Member
My rough understanding (from the Prof B videos) is as the hoof wall pulls forwards it leaves a gap which the bone fills in. So when you get a foot like in HR’s photo the bone has grown forwards so much and you can’t just trim the hoof back. You have to do it gradually- or in HR’s case let it happen naturally on the Rockley tracks.
What I haven’t got my head around is how the process reverses itself and the bone remodels itself back to its original shape...
(I need to listen to the videos again to understand better!)
Regandal
Well-Known Member
Bone remodels itself according to stresses put on it. Remove the stress, or ‘push’ in another direction and it will respond.
ktj1891
Well-Known Member
Old horse, TB ex-racer - transition over 3 months. 
IrishMilo
Well-Known Member
Wow.
Gloi
Too little time, too much to read.
Impressive
PapaverFollis
Well-Known Member
Wonky foot progress.... top picture most recent.
Regandal
Well-Known Member
As an aside, how on earth do you all get the date onto your photos? Seems to be beyond me, on an iPhone.