show ring trouble

[siennamum]

tbh, IMO I think you are fundamentally missing what he is telling you. He isn't telling you he is scared of the jumps, the environment or of being all alone. He is telling you doesn't want to *******ing well do it and you can sod off. He isn't panicking or scared. He is calm, calculating and trying to deck you - and succeeding.

You are so passive, he is escalating his evasions, although you may not want to pick a fight with him, if he won't walk or trot into the arena around the fences you stand no hope of getting him over them. I would hire arenas and walk & trot round the jumps. I would also invest in some good flatwork lessons, he has to be retrained. That way you can focus on the flatwork to build up your relationship without worrying about leaving the ground.

 

[SophieLouBee]

I wasn't feeling it at ALL!
I 100% blame me for everything in that video. Although he usually does things like that, I can usually deal with it better...and not fall off!
I shouldn't have got back on and done it again, I knew neither of us were in the mood for jumping that day, I honestly don't know what I was thinking. I went up to the yard, but as soon as I tied him up for tacking up, I thought "I know this won't end well"

You're very very right about walking him around first. Apart from getting on in the first place, that was my biggest mistake. His owner/my instructor came marching up to me as soon as I got out the ring the second time and shouted "WALK THE BLOODY THING AROUND FIRST!!"...I won't be making that mistake again, hehe!

P.s Ned's nickname is crabman, haha!

Nawh, I always like reading about Ned! I do agree with flatwork as others have said though, if any of my pupils/clients are having a jumping issue or a not listening issue, I always make them do hours of boring snoring flatwork before even putting a pole up, to make sure the horse is really listening and understanding the rider. It also really boosts confidence I find, for horse and rider, once they are both 100% sure of themselves on the ground, then they can progress to being airborn lol. Flatwork solves 90% of the jumping issues I've come across. You can't do enough flatwork if jumping is your thing IMO (I know that sounds totally backwards).

I know my standieX mare can jump 1m and could do a course with tight turns etc, but I have jumped her all of twice at home. Over a little cross pole, because she lacks the basic fundamental groundwork. The person before me has moved her on far too quickly and missed out all the basics, which she needs to make her confident in what she's doing, and with me on board. In the spring, she'll be ready for someone to take her out to pony club and have a real good time!

 

[Shantara]

I also think he should be walked round the course and round the jumps rather than made to go over them. He isn't ready for what you are asking and is napping so badly it's not even worth trying. He may well be a rescue but bad behaviour still shouldn't be tolerated. At the moment he is being the boss in the partnership when he shouldn't be.

Also maybe some flatwork lessons as you don't seem too secure in the saddle. If you are going to fall off when he puts a big jump in then you really shouldn't be jumping him yet. He needs to have confidence in you and coming off him won't help. That said good luck with him!

ETS He isn't listening to any of your aids so a bit of schooling on getting him working off your legs and seat a bit more sharply will help loads.

I'm usually quite secure, I'd sat WAY worse before and you can't see it from that video, but he jumped up and to the side, there was literally no horse to land on! Like I said, that was an AWFUL day and I used that video as an example, because it's quite literally the worst we've both been.
He's not really the boss, apart from me being silly and falling off twice, he's never actually 'won', I've always go him around the course and I've even managed to get 2nd place with him, twice! We were both feeling super confident those days and I got him in with no help.

our confidence with jumping is going up, we jumped about 4ft the other day and although his striding went all to pot and I lost my stirrup on one attempt, he jumped very well and he LOVED IT!

I will try schooling him, I'm not great, but if I get some lessons from my instructor, it should help!

 

[Shantara]

tbh, IMO I think you are fundamentally missing what he is telling you. He isn't telling you he is scared of the jumps, the environment or of being all alone. He is telling you doesn't want to *******ing well do it and you can sod off. He isn't panicking or scared. He is calm, calculating and trying to deck you - and succeeding.

You are so passive, he is escalating his evasions, although you may not want to pick a fight with him, if he won't walk or trot into the arena around the fences you stand no hope of getting him over them. I would hire arenas and walk & trot round the jumps. I would also invest in some good flatwork lessons, he has to be retrained. That way you can focus on the flatwork to build up your relationship without worrying about leaving the ground.

Disagree.
He's not taking the p*** and he is certainly NOT calm, haha!!
Again, that's the worst of the worst of our jumping rounds, you can tell he didn't really want me off, he stopped and waited for me, when most other horses would have thought "Screw you" and left, if they were truely trying to ditch their rider.

We had a fantastic jumping lesson not long ago. No fights, no refusing and he only went sidewards when he wanted to get to the jump faster. He left the others no problem. It's the show ring where he has the issue.

 

[Clodagh]

I'm going to sound really boring but theres no point jumping a single 4 foot fence with him - and losing your stirrups and therefore probably whoffing him in the kidneys on landing - unless he can do basic walk trot and canter circles when you ask, politely and obediently.

 

[Shantara]

I'm going to sound really boring but theres no point jumping a single 4 foot fence with him - and losing your stirrups and therefore probably whoffing him in the kidneys on landing - unless he can do basic walk trot and canter circles when you ask, politely and obediently.

I guess you didn't read the info on the video, huh?
We had jumped it perfectly twice before (we were doing chase-me-charlie at the end of a jumping lesson, I had jumped a course before then as we'd done fine) he took off far too early and took me by surprise! I felt awful for landing on his back and jabbing him in the mouth, but we're all humans and can make mistakes me be taken by surprise!

 

[dafthoss]

I feel this is going to turn in to another I want a foal type thread .

The problem lies in your flat work and jumping bigger is not going to change the fact your flat work is lacking and this of all places is the last place to try and show off about how high you can jump, its not the jumps its the bits inbetween that matter. How many horses went in to the ring at olympia hollow and ignoring their rider? none! they were all between leg and hand. Yes they are ridden by professionals but go to any proper show and watch, you will struggle to a horse thats allowed to go in hollow and not off the leg and theres a reason for that. Flat work is the key to jumping and when you realise this your jumping will improve no end.

 

[Hedgewitch13]

It's a difficult one if he behaves fine at home! Do you think maybe you are too kind because he is a rescue? I do think he now knows that if he naps he can probably get out of jumping in the ring.

What's he like at cross country? Maybe you need to get his 'blood' up a bit so he sees any kind of jumping (and anywhere!) as fun and not anything to fear or get out of.
Unfortunately the other thing is maybe he isn't ever going to be happy to perform in public. Some horses are just like that!

Maybe take the pressure off for a while and just do fun rides and things next year - it might help.

 

[Shantara]

I feel this is going to turn in to another I want a foal type thread .

Yes, so do I *sigh* I does get rather old! It was going so well in the first few pages too! I love how as soon as it gets 'interesting' everyone wants their say Haha!

I never really see 'how high I can go' it was all a bit of fun and he was working extremely well that day. We only had that one little mishap where I didn't anticipate him and lost my stirrup.

Don't worry guys, I'm taking it ALLLLL in, honestly, but I only get to ride him once a week and unless I specifically 'book' what I want to do, I have to follow the ride in what they want to do, whether that be hacking, or jumping, or dressage or whatever.

I'm not as lucky as most of you I don't have my own horse, I don't have a car and I don't have much money right now. I'm doing my very best.

 

[Lolo]

Can I ask a very sincere question?

What exactly did jumping 4' achieve?

I always wonder this when I see people saying how big they've jumped.

If I'm 100% honest, I think your lessons need looking at and also your instructor. I would agree with siennamum most of the way- he is not displaying what I'd class as scared behaviour and he isn't being that bad... You're not asserting yourself- he needs to believe that what you say goes, end of.

 

[*hic*]

Lolo's point about being assertive is borne out in the video of Matt jumping him. He's being an ar5e but Matt is much firmer with him and gets some sensible work.

 

[siennamum]

Yes, so do I *sigh* I does get rather old! It was going so well in the first few pages too! I love how as soon as it gets 'interesting' everyone wants their say Haha!

I never really see 'how high I can go' it was all a bit of fun and he was working extremely well that day. We only had that one little mishap where I didn't anticipate him and lost my stirrup.

Don't worry guys, I'm taking it ALLLLL in, honestly, but I only get to ride him once a week and unless I specifically 'book' what I want to do, I have to follow the ride in what they want to do, whether that be hacking, or jumping, or dressage or whatever.

I'm not as lucky as most of you I don't have my own horse, I don't have a car and I don't have much money right now. I'm doing my very best.

I feel bad now and I'm sorry for sounding so harsh, you sound a bit stuck, if you had the resources and the time you could develop a better relationship with him and iron out these problems. In the meantime, really try and swot up on some flatwork objectives, even simple stuff like moving promptly off the leg and some small leg yield when you are in a group lesson will really help you. Don't let him hoodwink you too much though, he will improve lots if he thinks you are tougher than him.

 

[Shantara]

It showed that he could actually jump something without plowing through it. Another of his issues. I wasn't trying to achieve something. It was a bit of fun.

I can't do anything about my lessons or my instructor. She owns him and im not moving yards.

 

[Shantara]

Matt broke him, they have a fantastic bond! Im always a tad jealous sadly matt doesnt ride him so much anymore, so it's more up to me.

dont feel bad siennamum! I know you're all trying to help, but I think knowing more of my situation would be helpful. I cant see him much and the time I have is limited :-( I hope to change that when I pass my driving test, I may even loan him so I can be incharge of what's done with him.
he's fine for what his owner needs him for, which is simply to hack. I want more from him and she'll support me, but right now I can't do a huge amount.

 

[JFTDWS]

The difference between "professional" riders and amateurs is that they tend to have zero tolerance towards any disobediance of the aids.
...
I think you have to be much, much stricter. There is no real deterrent for him not doing as you ask, is there?

Sorry Mithras, but I don't think he needs harsher punishment, I think he needs time and patience. Harder punishment has been tried (not by me) and it just makes him worse.

Just a clarification point that I don't think is always appreciated on here, and I don't think has been explained in this thread yet.

I see a lot of people saying that they've seen their horse beaten up and it "didn't work", therefore they don't feel being strict is right for their horse. The point I think they are missing is that being strict isn't about beating a horse up - as Mithras says, reinforcing a leg aid is NOT the same as beating him up. Furthermore, just because someone was firm once and the horse still said no, doesn't mean that being firm will never work for your horse.

What professional riders are (generally) very good at is saying "no" in the right way at the right time. What amateur riders tend to be good at is either saying "no" in the wrong way, at the wrong time, or (as I suspect is the case for you) not wanting to say "no" at all (a completely understandable response, but not ideal for training a horse!).

Ime, horses (and other animals) tend to accept "no" when it's said at the right time, in the right way, without developing the nasty habits that are associated with the same reprimand used at the wrong time. There is a tendancy for some people to see something done badly and assume that the practice is innately "bad", rather than just badly done, if you get what I mean.

Obviously I'm not talking about violence or inflicting pain / confusing a horse that doesn't understand - I mean that a well timed smack with a whip is worth 20 abusive wallops, really There is alway a middle way to take...

 

[Shantara]

I do agree jftd, a well timed tap is fine and he often gets one with a 'Get on!' if needs be..but you should have seen that person whip him...that was a good and proper beating!

 

[coss]

I agree with several posters on here about the lack of fear - he is napping. But he is also very tense. So although he may be "fearful" causing tension, the thing he's fearful of is very much unclear and i think he's passed the fear stage. He's just napping. In your vid on page one, about 3:04 and 3:15 - that is calculated napping. he's walking forwards and rather than stopping he going against you and ducking out the back. At no point is he infront of your leg. I have a pony who is very good at being behind the leg no matter what speed you're at and i think ned has the same tendancy. What you class as excitement about the jumps, i would class as tension. He's going at them as fast as possible, jumping with his head in the air and there is a lack of movement through his back - taht would be hard to sit to meaning landing will be uncomfortable for both of you. I'd go to pole work. Does he walk over poles? trot over poles? and canter over poles at the pace you dictate? if you can answer yes to that then i'd be moving onto cross poles and again, if they're small enough you should be able to walk over them, trot over them or canter them - your choice. I would consider having a lot of jumps set up but schooling round them.

Re the not wanting to beat him - you don't have to be abusive to get the message through, what does he do if you carry a stick and don't use it? I heard a brilliant description for the positive/negative reinforcement debate. With a friend, have one of you blind folded, and the other is navigator. The navigator chooses a place for you to walk to - or a path but the only thing they are allowed to say is "no" when you aren't going in the right direction. Then repeat the exercise where the navigator can only say "yes" when you are going in the correct direction. Finally, repeat the exercise where the navigator can say yes and no accordingly. Which method is clearest? I should think that when you hear the yes you are filled with relief, if you start veering off course and you get a no, you correct and you get a yes so breathe a sigh of relief. With just one or the other, you're relying on a constant no and when it goes silent is navigator taking a breath? when they take a pause in the yes is it because you've only slightly veered of. You'll get a huge contrast in nos/yeses.

Now take that to ned, i may have missed it, but did you pat him when he was going forwards? did you reward with voice (i've not got sound right now), when he was running backwards you just sat passively, so to him, when he's going forward there's not a lot, when he's going backwards, there's not a lot so its foggy. When he's going forwards you ask him to go places he doesn't like, when he's going back you ask nothing of him.

As above- timing is everything. I'd also work on your core balance, he's not easy to stick to at the best of times and when he is forwards going well you need to be more balanced to make that softer .

 

[Shantara]

Ill have to read your post more thoroughly when I get the laptop back - on my phone again!
its impossible to see, or hear because I always put music to my videos, but he mostly gets voice from me. When he's stopping ot going back, he gets a firm growl and when he's good he gets a soft (but loud enough to hear) 'good boy!'

 

[PonyIAmNotFood]

I agree, he needs to take leadership from you and if you have to rather firmly enforce that then so be it. You will get a calmer, happier horse out of the other side as he accepts your aids instead of doing everything possible to be ignorant and a problem. Would be a far nicer ride for you too.

 

[coss]

that's good you use your voice - i would back it up with leg/seat aids (there were a lot of cases i was sat thinking outside leg instead of rein aid) so that you can eventually only use voice when there is something genuinely scary. I only use my voice in dire circumstances (comes from riding dressage and you get marked down for voice use ).

 

[JFTDWS]

I do agree jftd, a well timed tap is fine and he often gets one with a 'Get on!' if needs be..but you should have seen that person whip him...that was a good and proper beating!

I'm sure they were out of order, but that's no reason to shy away from disciplining him appropriately as Mithras 9and others suggest)

 

[JFTDWS]

I only use my voice in dire circumstances (comes from riding dressage and you get marked down for voice use ).

there's a lot to be said for that. Some people seem to talk so much their horse switches off entirely from it. I'm a fan of the "growl and reward" in dire circs and relative quietness the rest of the time!

 

[coss]

there's a lot to be said for that. Some people seem to talk so much their horse switches off entirely from it. I'm a fan of the "growl and reward" in dire circs and relative quietness the rest of the time!

yep - my horse took off bucking and was doing 360degrees, a loud "oi" stopped him enough for me to regain balance.... don't think it would have had the same effect if he was used to me muttering all the time

 

[BarmyC]

Im not sure if this has been mentioned or not as i havent read every post but if this is happening in the show ring do you think that it could possibly be nerves on your part coming in to play??

I do agree with all the posters that say you are not being firm with him and he is taking the p out of you.

My mare can be horrendously nappy when it take her fancy to the point where i couldnt leave the yard to go out on a hack at one point without a discussion.

I have got over all of this with CONSTANT FIRM insistance. I can use a whip which winds her up more and acheives nothing.

I DO make it easier for her to go where i want when she naps by turning her in very tight circles and then after 2 or 3 circles i ask for forwards if she still continues to nap she gets turned again until she goes forwards in the direction i want. A good growl when asking for forwards often helps too

This works everytime as long as you are FIRM and CONSISTANT. She now thinks about napping and a quick GRR does the trick.

 

[Daytona]

Forget jumping for now, end of..!! I had a mare that was the same , well worse. Dam right dangerous when I got her. I could not get her 10 yards out if the yard on her own, she would go mental. She wouldn't go near a jump and the odd time she decided to jump she would charge at it totally out of control. I started off with weekly lessons with a good instructor on the flat, after two months of schooling 5 times a week I had her listening to me, I then decided to tackle the next issue - hacking. After a schooling session I would walk her out the yard, starting off with maybe 50m and over next few months built it up till she was hacking alone and confidently. This was then 7 months since I had starting this
plan , now I was ready to re introduce jumping , again with lots of lessons I slowly started jumping . Another 2 months past and it was show time, we arrived at show , she went in the ring and did a super round. I really think you need to go back to basics, as already stated. Work on your flat work, then hacking alone then jumping. Now my mare still had her days, but she was no longer dam right dangerous and most of the time I enjoyed riding her but it took about 1 year of work to stop her bad habits. She too was quite a scared wee thing, thought the whole world was out to get her, but if you take your time and address the issues one by one you will get there in the end. Mist people can't be bothered putting the time and effort in. You can't fix problems like this overnight.