Show v working bred

Clodagh

Clodagh

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To stop further derailment of another thread!
To my mind, even if a dog is working bred it should have a nod to the correct breed standard. A lot of the breed standard for labradors (for example) is to enable a dog to work well and hard and to stay sound. IMO good conformation and decent movement is more important to run on a hillside all day than it is to drag your fat, saggy backside round a show ring.

Having said that we then bought Pen three years ago. I love her sire and the day we found out a friend's bitch, on who's litter we had a pup booked, had not taken, I saw a pregnant bitch on a gundog FB group, in pup to the sire I liked. I messaged the owner and he was only Northants, so not too far, and he picks up on a shoot where I know the keeper. Keeper confirmed the bitch was an excellent game finder. I didn't see a photo of her stood up or in any way that you could tell what she looked like, other than she had a pretty face.
When we trundled up to view the pups this scrappy little half bred whippet with boobs came barking at the door and OH said 'If thats the mum just walk away'. The man was so nice though, and we had such a glowing report of the bitch, we put a deposit on the largest pup and hoped for the best.
We have ended up with a pigeon breasted, pointy toed, hackney action, 19kg 'Punicorn' as we call her. She is an excellent game finder though. We would never breed from her though, her confo genes should die with her.

My lengthy point is if you ignore the breed standard completely you may as well just have mutts.
 
Clodagh said:
To stop further derailment of another thread!
To my mind, even if a dog is working bred it should have a nod to the correct breed standard. A lot of the breed standard for labradors (for example) is to enable a dog to work well and hard and to stay sound. IMO good conformation and decent movement is more important to run on a hillside all day than it is to drag your fat, saggy backside round a show ring.

Having said that we then bought Pen three years ago. I love her sire and the day we found out a friend's bitch, on who's litter we had a pup booked, had not taken, I saw a pregnant bitch on a gundog FB group, in pup to the sire I liked. I messaged the owner and he was only Northants, so not too far, and he picks up on a shoot where I know the keeper. Keeper confirmed the bitch was an excellent game finder. I didn't see a photo of her stood up or in any way that you could tell what she looked like, other than she had a pretty face.
When we trundled up to view the pups this scrappy little half bred whippet with boobs came barking at the door and OH said 'If thats the mum just walk away'. The man was so nice though, and we had such a glowing report of the bitch, we put a deposit on the largest pup and hoped for the best.
We have ended up with a pigeon breasted, pointy toed, hackney action, 19kg 'Punicorn' as we call her. She is an excellent game finder though. We would never breed from her though, her confo genes should die with her.

My lengthy point is if you ignore the breed standard completely you may as well just have mutts.
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You have a point but you should get the temperament, which you might not be able to predict with a mutt. However, I prefer the old way of breeding dual purpose Labs. We used tohave pedigrees with many dual Champions in. Then about 30 (ish) yrs ago there seemed to be a divergence and the show dogs got more and more stockily built - and likely to run to fat, while the workers got skinnier. We used to have a working bred yellow with incredibly long legs and a very slim build, a lovely temperament but certainly no show dog. The 2 pups we have now have a small build and quite pointed 'snipe' noses, one more than the other. they weren't bought for their looks though. We should go back to dual purpose breeding imho.

At least with Labs, the divergence still gives you a reasonably healthy dog, I am appalled by the health problems that have been caused by extreme breeding for looks and would never buy any dog in that category.
 
In my view as long as they work well, have good temperaments and stay sound I like to see more variety in form rather than less.

I've said before I'd prefer it if we bred to type with open stud books rather than tight breed characteristics and closed stud books. I think you'd get an overall improvement in health that way. I'd sacrifice some predictability for that myself.

But what do I know? I bought a Sprollie. ?
 
Totally agree.
Both of my working (bred and titled) dogs have been shown/graded and have been breed surveyed/recommended for breeding and have all the whistles and bells. They'll never win a class but it's the grade that's important.
No point in looking nice if they can't do a day's work and who cares if they can work if they look stuck together? Or like a Malinois ??
Form should follow function IMO.

I often get told that the working lines could not work sheep in the fields because of their short upper arms ?
 
Pearlsasinger said:
You have a point but you should get the temperament, which you might not be able to predict with a mutt. However, I prefer the old way of breeding dual purpose Labs. We used tohave pedigrees with many dual Champions in. Then about 30 (ish) yrs ago there seemed to be a divergence and the show dogs got more and more stockily built - and likely to run to fat, while the workers got skinnier. We used to have a working bred yellow with incredibly long legs and a very slim build, a lovely temperament but certainly no show dog. The 2 pups we have now have a small build and quite pointed 'snipe' noses, one more than the other. they weren't bought for their looks though. We should go back to dual purpose breeding imho.
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I really don’t like the snipey noses that are such a thing now. Not being rude to yours specifically and that did come across poorly! Mine are not bred for their looks but I like them to please my eye.
I like longer legs, Tawny is built like a cob and really wears herself out trying to be fast.
Ffee is perfect to me, except a little shallow through the jaw, if I breed from her it will be to a dog with a real old fashioned box head.
Right now on my phone I don’t have a profile shot.
 

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There is a hoo-hah on Facebook every year that Siberians get a British breed specialist judge at Crufts, rather than an all-rounder or foreign judge, because the type of dogs they put up are so vastly different from what you'd see being rewarded elsewhere. Now I quite happen to like the 'British racing type' (though they'll tell you that doesn't exist, and the dogs are to the breed standard, and it's everyone else that is wrong!) but even I can acknowledge that some of these dogs perhaps lack type or substance and represent an extreme interpretation of the breed standard. But they do run very fast and very far. :p

Snipey heads/narrow forefaces are my bugbear in working cockers too. I know show cockers have got a lot to answer for but I do prefer their muzzle (and what I call spaniel #1's 'noble bonce!')
 
Someone once gave me dire predictions from one photo that my dog's long pasterns, inherited from his sire, would mean he would never stand up to any work, blah blah blah.
Whilst it's cosmetically irritatating, it never stopped him, he is still super fit and energetic and could work on the very best now if I could be bothered with the daily squarebashing (I can't, he owes me nothing, he's done me proud), he's nearly 10, his father was still competing at 8 and died at 13.
 
Clodagh said:
I really don’t like the snipey noses that are such a thing now. Not being rude to yours specifically and that did come across poorly! Mine are not bred for their looks but I like them to please my eye.
I like longer legs, Tawny is built like a cob and really wears herself out trying to be fast.
Ffee is perfect to me, except a little shallow through the jaw, if I breed from her it will be to a dog with a real old fashioned box head.
Right now on my phone I don’t have a profile shot.
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Our black one has the thinner face/muzzle. I think she will look quite like your photo when she is adult, (11 months now), her yellow sister is a bit squarer, altogether, I think the set of her ears emphasises that too, And yes I prefer the much squarer heads that we have had in the past but as I said we didn't buy them for their looks and they are very healthy which is the most important thing. Well next to the fact that the Rottweiler thinks they are wonderful.
 
My dog with terrible conformation (there's not an angle to be found on her, front or rear) retired at 8 in a breed which can sometimes be found working into double figures and is now a very arthritic 10 year old. Of course she had by far the better temperament, it's the neurotic wonder that never really liked work that is still bouncing around like a puppy! She doesn't owe me a thing either but I worry about her having a comfortable retirement. It is definitely something that will influence what and how I obtain another big dog in the future.

Re: irrational snipe aversion, I think as long as it's not a feature that causes a welfare issue, it's absolutely fine to want them to look how you want while they're doing what they do. If nothing else, I'm sure most of us have colour preferences? A good horse is never a bad colour and whatnot, but there's a whole list of colours I would not countenance having. :p
 
blackcob said:
My dog with terrible conformation (there's not an angle to be found on her, front or rear) retired at 8 in a breed which can sometimes be found working into double figures and is now a very arthritic 10 year old. Of course she had by far the better temperament, it's the neurotic wonder that never really liked work that is still bouncing around like a puppy! She doesn't owe me a thing either but I worry about her having a comfortable retirement. It is definitely something that will influence what and how I obtain another big dog in the future.

Re: irrational snipe aversion, I think as long as it's not a feature that causes a welfare issue, it's absolutely fine to want them to look how you want while they're doing what they do. If nothing else, I'm sure most of us have colour preferences? A good horse is never a bad colour and whatnot, but there's a whole list of colours I would not countenance having. :p
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Absolutely!
I don’t know much about dog conformation so I like them to look like a well put together horse!
 
Regarding Labradors, do people not care as much about their temperaments any more? I've always thought of them as delightful, jolly sorts of dogs, that are happy to meet new people. Over the past couple of years however, I've noticed an uptick in nasty, shouty sorts within the breed - all of which have been yellow, red, or chocolate, if it's relevant. The black ones remain nice so far. I tend to avoid all non-black Labradors on sight now, especially if I have a dog with me.
 
twiggy2 said:
Good healthy working dogs existed long before breed standards did.
The breed standards have done nothing but hate to so many working breeds.
I know of no winning show collie that could survive a day on the hill and many other breeds are the same.
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Is the standard the problem, or the interpretation of the standard/trends etc.
 
KittenInTheTree said:
Regarding Labradors, do people not care as much about their temperaments any more? I've always thought of them as delightful, jolly sorts of dogs, that are happy to meet new people. Over the past couple of years however, I've noticed an uptick in nasty, shouty sorts within the breed - all of which have been yellow, red, or chocolate, if it's relevant. The black ones remain nice so far. I tend to avoid all non-black Labradors on sight now, especially if I have a dog with me.
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I think any popular breed can lead to people thinking ‘ah, uterus’ and breeding a litter. With the instant gratification we all expect today people go and buy these pups without any knowledge or care as to what the parents are like. Rogues beget rogues.
 
All my dog experience has been with a breed (Welsh Springer) that doesn't really have working and show types - there is a fairly small gene pool, and they are all supposed to fit into the breed standard box.
I was astounded the first time I saw my Irish Setter (working bred) against a show type setter. Mine has a very lean athletic build, not a lot of body feather, and a small head with short ears. I think he looks like a beautifully put together athlete - but when we ran into a woman walking 6 show setters, she was really quite rude about him - called him a funny, gangly little thing! Her's were enormous, very heavily feathered, and built like brick outhouses. I know I@m biased, but I prefer mine!
 
KittenInTheTree said:
Regarding Labradors, do people not care as much about their temperaments any more? I've always thought of them as delightful, jolly sorts of dogs, that are happy to meet new people. Over the past couple of years however, I've noticed an uptick in nasty, shouty sorts within the breed - all of which have been yellow, red, or chocolate, if it's relevant. The black ones remain nice so far. I tend to avoid all non-black Labradors on sight now, especially if I have a dog with me.
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That's interesting, our black is the most vocal dog we've ever had in the family. although not 'shouty', as such and certainly not at passersby, of any kind.. We have had many of all 3 colours, over the years.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Is the standard the problem, or the interpretation of the standard/trends etc.
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I was thinking about this last night, and decided labs aren't really a good example as they all look like the same breed, except Punicorns of course.
Working Border collies and show collies could easily be from a different realm altogether. I do wonder though if it is exaggeration of the standards to please the judge's eye that leads to the differences.

If you look at a breed that the KC haven't interefered with much yet, the foxhound, they come in all sizes and stockiness, and are bred to work appropriately in the country they cover. So hopefully in Essex you have an Old English slow old thing, low scenting, plenty of bone. In the Cotswolds you have the modern lightweight speed merchant who can cover the grass like a racehorse. Disclaimer it is years since I hunted and I do think there has been some blurring of the lines here.
But they should all be put together the same way and a hound show judge will reward the one who stands over the ground properly and has good feet, depth of chest and so on.

So...sorry, rambling on...back to labs we have three distinct types here, Brandy the old girl is old fashioned, square and a proper lab to look at and a delightful person. Tawny similar in confo and temperament. The two younger ones, Pen has been bred from 6 generations of partridge pickers in East Anglia, small, speedy and almost spaniel like in her action. Ffee was bred from dogs that work the Welsh Mountains, so tall and powerful, an immensley strong dog.
So even within our tiny pack there are different regional examples.

Do GSD's come in specific role types, or is it show/working - which in England does not look like the same thing, to my eye.
 
KittenInTheTree said:
Regarding Labradors, do people not care as much about their temperaments any more? I've always thought of them as delightful, jolly sorts of dogs, that are happy to meet new people. Over the past couple of years however, I've noticed an uptick in nasty, shouty sorts within the breed - all of which have been yellow, red, or chocolate, if it's relevant.
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I know it’s due to the numerically high amount of litters registered, but labs are the most commonly cited breed for biting. Even almost 20 years ago, the worst dog we came across was a show size yellow lab, it attacked ours every time. It’s given me a definite prejudice against yellow labs. The chocolates seem to have been bred for colour in some cases (not all, before I get jumped on!)

My very simple requirement is fit for function, although after looking at the mum’s conformation, the white wide springer stripe was essential for me! To my mind, Zak is not correct due to lack of stripe, silly, I know.

Now they’re 10, our two are still fit as fiddles, although Bear took a while to recover from a recent injury. We stopped letting them tear round the big woods, we go to a small wooded area to warm them up. If we let them run free, they don’t self moderate, they’re too keen to be the wild things.
 
My late mum was bitten by one dog during her lifetime - when she was a teenager. the dog was a black(?) Lab which she passed everyday on her way to school. This particular day, it shot out of it's garden gate and gave her a completely unprovoked, so far as she was aware, bite.
That didn't stop her wanting a yellow Lab when she got married - mind you she had a black Lab/collie cross at home at the time. She had a continuous stream of blacks and yellows for the rest of her life, leaving my Dad with 2 black bitches when she died. I have never met a grumpy Lab myself, ours have all been very cheerful creatures., even our current 'Mavis' (I don't really know) :)

I had 2 brown Lab litter sisters, one was pts at 18 months with Hodgekins disease and the other, who lived to almost 15 was epileptic. When we were looking for pups after we had to have the 6 yr old Rotter pts, one of my stipulations was 'no brown Labs' on top of 'no more Rottweilers', because of the health risks.
 
Clodagh said:
I was thinking about this last night, and decided labs aren't really a good example as they all look like the same breed, except Punicorns of course.
Working Border collies and show collies could easily be from a different realm altogether. I do wonder though if it is exaggeration of the standards to please the judge's eye that leads to the differences.

If you look at a breed that the KC haven't interefered with much yet, the foxhound, they come in all sizes and stockiness, and are bred to work appropriately in the country they cover. So hopefully in Essex you have an Old English slow old thing, low scenting, plenty of bone. In the Cotswolds you have the modern lightweight speed merchant who can cover the grass like a racehorse. Disclaimer it is years since I hunted and I do think there has been some blurring of the lines here.
But they should all be put together the same way and a hound show judge will reward the one who stands over the ground properly and has good feet, depth of chest and so on.

So...sorry, rambling on...back to labs we have three distinct types here, Brandy the old girl is old fashioned, square and a proper lab to look at and a delightful person. Tawny similar in confo and temperament. The two younger ones, Pen has been bred from 6 generations of partridge pickers in East Anglia, small, speedy and almost spaniel like in her action. Ffee was bred from dogs that work the Welsh Mountains, so tall and powerful, an immensley strong dog.
So even within our tiny pack there are different regional examples.

Do GSD's come in specific role types, or is it show/working - which in England does not look like the same thing, to my eye.
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In my own breed's standard, there's some debate over whether 'straight' means 'level' or not lol. Or what is the 'back' and what is the 'backline'.

Simply put, there's show and working.
Herding types in Germany look like showlines, a bit less exaggerated/flashy.
Then there's pet and Krazy Kolor lines :p
As a generalisation, showlines are always red and black or a not so strong grey, although there is a push to bring back black showlines.
Working lines are nearly always black, grey or bicolour or very, very rarely, a black and red/saddle markings. You would see these a lot in Belgian lines.
In working lines, old Czech and some east German lines, around which there is a huge sales pitch, they are much bigger and heavier as they were used for perimerer patrol/as a visual deterrent. so didn't need to be so athletic. The Wall came down a long time ago so most of these lines are long diluted, despite what people may claim.
The breed is medium to large, not giant,a lot of these dogs are not correct.
Whilst a lot of people talk but don't walk, others do - some working lines show, some showlines work, some breeders mix the lines, for good or ill ;)
The split which began in the 80s, perpetuated by a small cabal, which has created separate gene pools, I doubt the breed will ever recover from, but reading these posts, it doesn't actually seem to be so marked as in other breeds.
In showlines, there seems to be a move towards a very dark red colour, better rear angulation/straighter backs, but too tall and with massive bear heads.
Again, for me, this is not correct - they're not supposed to look like Akitas.
 
CorvusCorax said:
In my own breed's standard, there's some debate over whether 'straight' means 'level' or not lol.
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Reminds me of another bugbear... these are all describing the same breed:

"The topline is level or sloping slightly from the withers to the croup."

"Back short, straight and strong."

"The topline of the back and loin is straight and firm, often rising slightly from croup to withers."

"Back strong, short, straight, and level."

"The withers are pronounced and the topline slopes gently to the croup."

So which one is it?!
 
In the USA we have many types of German Shepherds. There are the American show lines, further divided into all-breed vs specialty types, German show lines, working lines and the over sized backyard breeder sorts. In the specialty ring types they are the most sloping, hock walking sort. I personally call them hock walking a$$ draggers. The all breed ring sorts aren't as extreme and often can do tending, obedience, tracking and agility. The German show lines are the banana backs. Working lines are, IMHO, the closest to the standard as written. I'm sure y'all can't guess what sort I have;)
 
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