Show v working bred

Having GSD and showing them I’d say there’s an obvious split, especially in the UK. As has been said, some workers show, and some showers can work. All these pics I just pulled off google.
Typical show “Alsatian” look very American show line, tend to be overlong and low, usually quite exaggerated.

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then you have your West German Show line, the “ banana backs” come in varying degrees of exaggeration, though I have found there is a some improvement in the breed of late & judges are thinking on their decisions. this is one of my personal favourites- Elmo vhuhnegrab


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Then you have your working line, generally Czech lines or East German lines. But they have blurred.


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Then your “ pet line”, tend to be bred exclusively by BYB and use “ it’s got a STRAIGHT BACK” as the tag line. Often look like they’ve been stuck together. My other favourite is “ it doesn’t need hip or elbow scoring because it’s got a straight back so it healthy”

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I think there is a definite split in types, but not necessarily precluding one type from work or show. Though most working line dogs do not show, although many of them have excellent conformation!
 
ApolloStorm said:
Having GSD and showing them I’d say there’s an obvious split, especially in the UK. As has been said, some workers show, and some showers can work. All these pics I just pulled off google.
Typical show “Alsatian” look very American show line, tend to be overlong and low, usually quite exaggerated.

View attachment 46820

then you have your West German Show line, the “ banana backs” come in varying degrees of exaggeration, though I have found there is a some improvement in the breed of late & judges are thinking on their decisions. this is one of my personal favourites- Elmo vhuhnegrab


View attachment 46821

Then you have your working line, generally Czech lines or East German lines. But they have blurred.


View attachment 46823

Then your “ pet line”, tend to be bred exclusively by BYB and use “ it’s got a STRAIGHT BACK” as the tag line. Often look like they’ve been stuck together. My other favourite is “ it doesn’t need hip or elbow scoring because it’s got a straight back so it healthy”

View attachment 46827

I think there is a definite split in types, but not necessarily precluding one type from work or show. Though most working line dogs do not show, although many of them have excellent conformation!
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Whilst I agree with most of what you say, working lines are predominantly West German, Belgian etc.
The east German 'DDR' lines are all but gone - there are some notable dogs which flash up on pedigrees, but they are not widespread.
Czech stuff is still there but getting diluted for the following reason.
West German working line x Czech seems to produce the golden mean, points wise, and are more anatomically correct and are capable of attaining breed survey.
Dogs like Extreme, Bolle, Qvido, Gringo etc.
 
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A friend of mine, who bred my young bitch, is trying to keep some of the old DDR lines going. It is pretty much impossible but she does what she can.
 
CorvusCorax said:
At least we're not on another forum where every discussion turns into sport vs 'real world/LE'. I've no idea when they have time to train as they're sitting talking about REAL DOGS on the internet all day...
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All forums seem to fall into that sort of trap. Positive vs balanced, going back showing vs continuing social distancing, blah blah. I have more time some days than others to roll my eyes at keyboard trainers.
 
CorvusCorax said:
Whilst I agree with most of what you say, working lines are predominantly West German, Belgian etc.
The east German 'DDR' lines are all but gone - there are some notable dogs which flash up on pedigrees, but they are not widespread.
Czech stuff is still there but getting diluted for the following reason.
West German working line x Czech seems to produce the golden mean, points wise, and are more anatomically correct and are capable of attaining breed survey.
Dogs like Extreme, Bolle, Qvido, Gringo etc.
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honestly they’re not my field, I tend to show at Kennel club shows, and I think I’ve seen one there in 5 years! On my occasional foray into SV showing for Breed surveys there are more there, but I certainly am no expert on the working lines. The uk show lines are more what I “ know” many show people here (wrongly) won’t touch a sable of any shade!
 
GSD Woman said:
A friend of mine, who bred my young bitch, is trying to keep some of the old DDR lines going. It is pretty much impossible but she does what she can.
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Both my old dog’s (Zak) mother and grandmother were imported from Eastern Germany, but since the DDR registry ended with the unification of Germany in 1990, there have obviously been no DDR dogs born since then. Zak was line bred 3.2 on Tino vom Felsenschloß, one of the last DDR registered dogs, with all the backmassing of DDR lines that entails.
His grandfather was predominantly Belgian working lines through Pasco and Xatoh, with some Western showlines from the 1980's on his mother line and back again to a border patrol dog from the East who was Angus gggg grandfather.
So despite being a mix of lines on paper he was genetically predominantly DDR through backmassing of Eastern German ancestors because Tino is so close up in the pedigree.

I’m no expert on lines or who produces what as I’m not in the sport world but the breeder of my dogs is very knowledgable about the various lines so I can rely on her to help with any questions I might have regarding lines and what to expect.
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Could someone please help me out and explain why the low backend is desirable in some of the breed examples? Looks like it's back legs are over bent? I've only ever seen straighter back GSDs in real life. Genuine inquiry. We just have collies.
 
Regarding health testing I contradict myself ?. I’d always want my GSDs health tested (hips/elbows/haemo minimum) but would happily buy a non health tested working sheepdog (whether that be border collies, beardie, kelpie etc). ??‍♀️
 
ApolloStorm said:
honestly they’re not my field, I tend to show at Kennel club shows, and I think I’ve seen one there in 5 years! On my occasional foray into SV showing for Breed surveys there are more there, but I certainly am no expert on the working lines. The uk show lines are more what I “ know” many show people here (wrongly) won’t touch a sable of any shade!
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It's a pity, all the permitted colours used to be present, even in KC showing, including two of the most popular sires of their time, who were grey. Fashion has a lot to answer for.
 
limestonelil said:
Could someone please help me out and explain why the low backend is desirable in some of the breed examples? Looks like it's back legs are over bent? I've only ever seen straighter back GSDs in real life. Genuine inquiry. We just have collies.
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You’ll be told it’s just the show stance, and to some degree that’s the case but it’s clear to me the overall shape has changed in the West German show lines over the years and I can’t fathom any reason other than fashion. Thankfully there are moderate, balanced examples out there who are also capable of working.
 
limestonelil said:
Could someone please help me out and explain why the low backend is desirable in some of the breed examples? Looks like it's back legs are over bent? I've only ever seen straighter back GSDs in real life. Genuine inquiry. We just have collies.
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A combination of misinterpretation of the breed standard, fashion/fad, driven by certain individuals.
I used to defend the dog by saying it was handler manipulation, which it is, in a lot of cases and there was a drive in Germany to ban 'stacking' and make the dogs be shown on a loose line, banning photoshopped/colour altered pictures from the breed magazine etc.
Even working dogs (and moderate showline dogs) will fall into a show stance naturally, but their backs are not hinged and they can stand up straight/move correctly/normally.
A dog can still exhibit a correct gait/flying trot, without having it's hocks flat on the ground or it's tail touching the floor.
 
That GSD from Crufts in 2016, Cruaghaire Catoria, made me cringe. I don't know the breed, but as a layperson I thought it had a roached back, and was unsound, particularly at the end of its lap. I thought it was grotesque, and far removed from the beautiful GSDs that you see working.
 
Lakeland terriers have very different working vs show types. The show types all have the same look - small to medium sized, fine bone, active trot with a straight legged movement, soft undercoat and with a harsher wiry top coat etc.

The working type seems to be any "fell" terrier. There is much more variety. Some people refer to Patterdale terriers as working Lakelands. Probably because both fell under the older heading of fell terrier. They often have harsher faces, with shorter noses like border terriers. Many have much shorter, harsher coats. They are higher in energy and have a higher prey drive.

I much prefer the show type, aesthetically, and they have the benefit of not being overly popular so they don't get the same pressure to be overbred or exaggerated (indeed the breed description is that no feature is exaggerated). I don't doubt that the show type could have some success working; my dog caught a rabbit once but gave a few a decent scare! But if I actually wanted a dog for a job the working lakie is a cut above.
 
DressageCob said:
That GSD from Crufts in 2016, Cruaghaire Catoria, made me cringe. I don't know the breed, but as a layperson I thought it had a roached back, and was unsound, particularly at the end of its lap. I thought it was grotesque, and far removed from the beautiful GSDs that you see working.
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I watched it through my fingers at the time, she was also deeply unhappy/nervous and IMO should never have been put in that position, but apparently once you're in the group holding area, there's no going back, which is a welfare issue in itself.
However her owner is a nice lady who loves her dogs and should never have been subjected to the vitriol and abuse she had to suffer.
The whole scenario did however, start a debate about which judges were giving which grades to which dogs at which shows, and sparked a drive for more accountability and global uniformity in judging (and guess what, people didn't like that either ?).
 
Moobli said:
Both my old dog’s (Zak) mother and grandmother were imported from Eastern Germany, but since the DDR registry ended with the unification of Germany in 1990, there have obviously been no DDR dogs born since then. Zak was line bred 3.2 on Tino vom Felsenschloß, one of the last DDR registered dogs, with all the backmassing of DDR lines that entails.
His grandfather was predominantly Belgian working lines through Pasco and Xatoh, with some Western showlines from the 1980's on his mother line and back again to a border patrol dog from the East who was Angus gggg grandfather.
So despite being a mix of lines on paper he was genetically predominantly DDR through backmassing of Eastern German ancestors because Tino is so close up in the pedigree.

I’m no expert on lines or who produces what as I’m not in the sport world but the breeder of my dogs is very knowledgable about the various lines so I can rely on her to help with any questions I might have regarding lines and what to expect.
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Pasko and Xato still carry a lot of old German lines, including Korbelbach, which is a kennel name I really like to see in a pedigree, particularly the G litter.
My older one is pretty much all Belgian expect one line which goes back through the mother to a lot of famous blondies ?
 
CorvusCorax said:
Pasko and Xato still carry a lot of old German lines, including Korbelbach, which is a kennel name I really like to see in a pedigree, particularly the G litter.
My older one is pretty much all Belgian expect one line which goes back through the mother to a lot of famous blondies ?
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My young bitch has a lot of old breeding. Pasco is her ggrandfather and she’s only 21 generations from Horand.
 
CorvusCorax said:
I watched it through my fingers at the time, she was also deeply unhappy/nervous and IMO should never have been put in that position, but apparently once you're in the group holding area, there's no going back, which is a welfare issue in itself.
However her owner is a nice lady who loves her dogs and should never have been subjected to the vitriol and abuse she had to suffer.
The whole scenario did however, start a debate about which judges were giving which grades to which dogs at which shows, and sparked a drive for more accountability and global uniformity in judging (and guess what, people didn't like that either ?).
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I'm sure you're right, that she's a nice person etc. I wouldn't be willing to promote a dog like that but it's not my breed. I had no idea about the holding area at Crufts; that's awful and definitely a welfare issue.

To me, the criticism is mainly of the judge more than the handler. I don't think a dog which moves like that (hock on the ground, back feet knuckling over) should be rewarded. I remember the owner posting a list of the dog's wins and it was clear it was doing very well at many competitions. That suggested a problem with the way they were being judged, so it was good it started a conversation.

This is a picture the owner posted to show how well the dog moves. I disagree with her interpretation of the photo. It's at a different show to Crufts...I'm not sure when.
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DressageCob said:
I'm sure you're right, that she's a nice person etc. I wouldn't be willing to promote a dog like that but it's not my breed. I had no idea about the holding area at Crufts; that's awful and definitely a welfare issue.

To me, the criticism is mainly of the judge more than the handler. I don't think a dog which moves like that (hock on the ground, back feet knuckling over) should be rewarded. I remember the owner posting a list of the dog's wins and it was clear it was doing very well at many competitions. That suggested a problem with the way they were being judged, so it was good it started a conversation.

This is a picture the owner posted to show how well the dog moves. I disagree with her interpretation of the photo. It's at a different show to Crufts...I'm not sure when.
View attachment 46935
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???
 
limestonelil said:
Could someone please help me out and explain why the low backend is desirable in some of the breed examples? Looks like it's back legs are over bent? I've only ever seen straighter back GSDs in real life. Genuine inquiry. We just have collies.
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So, originally the rear angulation and steepness of croup allowed the dog to tend their sheep at an efficient far reaching trot expending as little energy as possible. However, the propensity towards “ flashy” show dogs has meant more over exaggeration (as in MANY breeds). The show stack does serve a purpose in that it’s designed to show the dogs at the point of extention while in motion- it is a natural stance for a lot of GSD. Although it can be altered to create further exaggeration.
I have found that many breeders have good moderate dogs out there, but I’m not sure if that stems from the “ crackdown” or if they’ve all decided to just haul over to SV shows as the KC is “ too restrictive on our breed”
 
DressageCob said:
Lakeland terriers have very different working vs show types. The show types all have the same look - small to medium sized, fine bone, active trot with a straight legged movement, soft undercoat and with a harsher wiry top coat etc.

The working type seems to be any "fell" terrier. There is much more variety. Some people refer to Patterdale terriers as working Lakelands. Probably because both fell under the older heading of fell terrier. They often have harsher faces, with shorter noses like border terriers. Many have much shorter, harsher coats. They are higher in energy and have a higher prey drive.

I much prefer the show type, aesthetically, and they have the benefit of not being overly popular so they don't get the same pressure to be overbred or exaggerated (indeed the breed description is that no feature is exaggerated). I don't doubt that the show type could have some success working; my dog caught a rabbit once but gave a few a decent scare! But if I actually wanted a dog for a job the working lakie is a cut above.
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My OH worked a couple of Lakelands back in the day. Amazing dogs, hard as nails yet lovely family pets at the same time.
 
Clodagh said:
They are. I love yours . GSDs scare me though, they look like policemen who are never off duty ?.
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It’s a breed of dog I’m wary of, along with Akita.

Rather memorably, I was in a pub in France one night, bit of a dodgy little place and it was raided. I made the mistake of trying to pat the policeman’s dog. Bloody thing nearly took my hand off!
 
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