Showing - measurement scandal - slight rant

KautoStar1

KautoStar1

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OK, so I have just read the article about show horses and ponies having to be remeasured and the response of those in the showing world being "horrified" that such blatent cheating could take place and wondered what planet these people are living on ??? You only have to go to a show to see how many horses and ponies are competing in classes they are clearly too big for. Undermeasurement has been going on for years and seems to be the norm. I know a few who are 2-3 inches bigger than their life time measurement certificate. Its the same as fat horses and ponies being acceptable as well as having no chance at all with a perfectly decent horse unless its been 'produced' You might as well burn your entry fee as you have no chance against the pro's. Its just prizes for the boys.
Showing needs a massive overhaul and I for one would be pleased to see them get a kick up the a*se they so deserve.

Sorry, makes me cross - grrrr
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You might as well burn your entry fee as you have no chance against the pro's. Its just prizes for the boys

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No, I can't agree with that I'm afraid. It goes on to a certain extent, however, generally that has not been my experience.

As far as the height thing goes though - well yes, no suprise there at all.
 
Can't agree with you more!!!!!
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The people who sent horses to that vet knew exactly what they were doing and paid a lot of money to do it, probably in order to make a fat profit on the horse. As for not making them get remeasured because it'll cost owners £30k - well tough!! They knew they were cheating in the first place. Notice how many have declined to have their animals remeasured...
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It makes me cross too, hence I won't participate in showing
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I may be naive but I can't see how it will cost 30K to get remeasurements done. Does anyone know why it will cost that much?
Mind you it is a perennial problem. I am a dinosaur and have been around for more years than I care to admit to and this has always been an issue. I had a lovely 15.2 in the early 80s and showed him in small Hunter classes. he was absolutely dwarfed by the other entrants. I was told he was a lovely horse with great confo and gave a good ride but was just too small!
 
I dont agree with the producer aspect thing either, in my experience this year we have often been placed above producers although my horse is at a producers yard she doesnt ride it neither does she show it. I think there are a few facey judges but once you've been under them once you know not to go under them again. I was under the same illusion before i went to the producers but have had to admit i was wrong.
The measuring thing however i totally agree with and the things some people do to get them measured beggars belief
 
Doesn't just happen in showing, I was asked to measure one I used to own which is on the same yard, I said he's not grown since you bought him of me you know lol, ''yeah but can just measure him just to make sure'', I said look you can't compete him xxx classes because he's not yyy etc I can assure you he is not xxx and I would say he was if he wasn't, otherwise I'd off taken him in those classes myself, but if you want me to get my stick out and measure him again I will''

So I did and proved them wrong and the reply I got was, ''well ist not like anyone will notice, I'm going to complete him in those classes anyway''

What is the point of rule book if people don't stick to it....oh yes I know, only when it applies to somebody else!
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It was a quote from the article - I'm assuming the £30k is for all the 100 or so people who that vet had measured this year - £300 for a height certificate? Dunno if that sounds right, seems like a lot to me actually........
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I may be naive but I can't see how it will cost 30K to get remeasurements done. Does anyone know why it will cost that much?
Mind you it is a perennial problem. I am a dinosaur and have been around for more years than I care to admit to and this has always been an issue. I had a lovely 15.2 in the early 80s and showed him in small Hunter classes. he was absolutely dwarfed by the other entrants. I was told he was a lovely horse with great confo and gave a good ride but was just too small!

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Interesting, I'd have said the reverse was true.

Unless they've actually been measured I find that people tend to overestimate height. So when OH enters her 14.2 cob in classes locally there are regular mumblings about him being oversized. But he's not, just that an amazing number of people overestimate height.
 
I had him on loan. He was owned by a very experienced person who had a hunter and P2P livery yard and who also judged at top class shows but I know what you mean.
 
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£300 for a height certificate?

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Having said that, I know someone who sent a pony to that vet to be measured, and I think he charged twice that...

(Please someone tell me if that's a defamatory post?
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On a normal day with shoes fresh in from field with a stick my cob measures just short of 15.2 others believe he is only 15h. Infact someone argues constantly with me that he is only 15h yet i have meausred him regularly with a stick on flat ground, i'm sure if you rode him for 3 hours he'd measure smaller or dosed up with apc's and starved for a few days
 
I always get told that Genie is bigger than she is. Last time she was measured she was 14.3 1/2hh, but I am constantly told that she has to be at least 15.2hh! I guess that fact that I am vertically challenged doesn't help to be honest...
 
maybe the £300 is taking into account the cost to have the shoes removed for the measuring and put back on again afterwards???? i know it still dosent add up though???
 
Look....to save time and money, I'll get my stick out and do it for 50 quid....can't say fairer than that.

......last year I bought a 13hh highland. Got him home- measured him...turns out he's 13.3hh.

As OH says....I got more than I paid for, anyway
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My connie is 14.2hh on passport but is clearly 15hh/15.1! I would never enter him in an M&M class as he is overheight but I know plenty of people that have entered 15hh connies into shows and won. Showing is a load of *** imo so at least they may be taking steps to stop people entering overheights.
 
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My connie is 14.2hh on passport but is clearly 15hh/15.1! I would never enter him in an M&M class as he is overheight but I know plenty of people that have entered 15hh connies into shows and won. Showing is a load of *** imo so at least they may be taking steps to stop people entering overheights.

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He wouldnt look overheight in a connie class at 15h mind!
 
I have shown my horses at top level and have height certs. My horses always look smaller than the others!
I show the youngster off of grass and straight from the field and the others are fit and well covered but not fat.
We have had many wins over the years but some disappointments too. But good judges do look beyond the height. So PLEASE why does the show world still think the horse has to be massive to win? The horse has to be "true to type" and fall within the height RANGE to win and I agree that it is all very weird!!
I watched the hacks at Suffolk County and was fed up because I had missed the "Smalls" But heh! I hadn't, but I thought they were the large hacks!
Oh well, it gives us something to talk about.
Also , have you noticed the opposite happens when people are selling? 15.2hh is advertised as 16.1hh!!!
Nowt weirder than folks!!
 
The thing is that most people wack a stick on and say oh yeh 16h, but once you have the shoes off,trimmed, out of season so less conditiom, stand them in a way that makes them a small as they can, and let them relax you can easily loose 2 inches, however some are still huge.
I think the shock for the showing world is the amount some of these horses are over and the fact that it is all from one vet.
It has been well known for years that some vets will try harder than others, including pad in a stable block with stallions and having to walk down stairs!!!
Flip reverse it though, i have heard of people now wanting a height cert bigger than they are, so they can compete BE but also do WHP at the same time!!!

Re pros, My Mum won at HOYS on a home produced horse and i had a 2nd in WHP on my event pony!!
 
I do agree about the heights - traditional cob is 154.5 cm and is dwarfed by a lot of 148s. I have been told I could get him measured in at 14.2 (148) with the right person and certainly as under 153 to do the pony classes. I recently overhead a top producer saying to another novice that her show cob which is just over 15.2 could with them be measured in at 15.1.

I believe that LHC should not be granted until 9 as a lot of horses grow until 8.

I can't agree about having to be produced professionally to win. Big names do often do well, but as I recently proved, home produced, novice and 100% amateur horse and riders can win at county over the professional produced ones.

As some have said, a good horse proves itself, Chancer is normally the smallest in his class when I show him ex 153 classes and so far, he has been placed at the top end more often than not. Maybe I have been lucky with judges?

I also do not have him fat - well covered and muscled, but you can feel his ribs but he can do a good gallop without puffing for the next 10 mins. I have noticed that judges are improving - not all, but certainly some are realising that a fit horse is far better than a fat lump.
 
In a way the whole practice of measuring horses at the wither is a bit flawed.

The horse's front legs are joined to the body purely by muscles alone, so you are never going to get a perfectly consistent height from any horse as workload, temperament, stress etc are all going to affect how the horse stands to be measured and therefore its height.

Maybe we should change the system and measure horses by rump height? At least the pelvis is a fixed joint (but the height of the horse could still be influenced by the amount of condition it is carrying).
 
i thought the measurements were designed so that the ponys were measured at their shortest and once they were measured it didnt matter if they put on weight and muscle after?
its amazing the lenghts ppl will go to get animals in under the pony cert over here.
feet trimmed to the last or with very thin shoes so their givie that extra inch,animals stood on concrete for a day or 2 before to tire them,often with no food or water..tho if the animal seems dehydrated their ment to offer them a drink in the measuring station and worked hard on the lunge before the measuring all to get them tired so they wont stand at true height...and they are the legal things thats not even counting the ones that are sedated(which is the only gauranteed way for a pony to loose inches)
and then you'll often hear storys of good jumping ponys being measured overheight,sold on the day as they arent able to compete in the pony class' the dealers then chuck them on poor grazing til they loose condition remeasure them the next year and hey presto the animal is a jumping pony again...usually now called a 7 or 8 year old so they wont have to be measured again
 
I have a 16hh cob...I have been specifically told that I could get him down to 15'1 for the cob show classes if I wanted too....but the ways of doing it just DO NOT appeal to me at all. Some of the techniques are just plain cruel....I do know of people who have taken these measures to get it done so I can see why people are reluctant to get horses remeasured....because they either won't pass or they will have to go to very drastic lengths to measure to height.
 
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