Showjumping and Defuse calmer

[Queenbee]

Hi all,

I'm competing on Monday, and it's our first outdoor show of the season, he's only been to three other outdoor shows and around other horses he can get a bit sticky - refusing to walk on or walk into a ring. On the flip side, when faced with a jump he can get a bit over excited. I'm very much in two minds. We are doing sj, followed by WH in the morning and coloured in the afternoon. I am really undecided as to how to play it with a calmer. When he becomes grumpy and sticky it's normally because of horses that are misbehaving, but the working hunter will be our first ever ridden class, I can envisage him being sticky in the line up and a bit excitable as we are going around with the others, the only calmer that I have found to work is defuse, which has magnesium and l-tryptophan in it, The problem is that when I last gave him a syringe of it (less than the reccomended dose for ben if I recall correctly) the LT hit him noticeably straight away. This was at home so at a show he may be more alert, but I want to make sure that using it won't impede his ability to jump. Before the WH class he has a substantial course to jump. I am thinking, that I have a 3/4hr ride over (not at all tiring for the beast, then a 14 jump course over the unaffiliated part of the affiliated course, if I feel he needs it, 1/2 a syringe just before the WH, which should take any edge away but leave him sparkly enough to jump competently over a small (6 x 2ft 3 max) course and shine in the ring without his nerves affecting him in the showing section. What are people's thoughts and experiences? Do any of you jump on defuse?

 

[Queenbee]

Anyone have any insight??????

 

[FlyingCircus]

That seems a lot of work for a youngster!
I personally am not a fan of calmers and opt for making sure the horse is properly prepared and relaxed rather than needing to stuff them with chemicals.

Totally understand that for some it is the only option (experienced older horse that knows what's coming so gets very over excited)...but for a youngster, this shouldn't be the case so much.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Personally, I prefer to get flatwork properly established before expecting youngsters to jump at home, never mind jumping in a show atmosphere. If horses are brought on slowly, they don't usually need calmers to cope with new experiences.

 

[catroo]

I personally don't compete on the flat with a calmer, let alone jump.

The only time I've ridden with calmer in the system is taking a youngster for a sightseeing trip to a show for a wander and a bit of experience. The calmer was for the travelling rather than the event.

I think in a lot of cases it calms the riders more than the horses!

 

[bumper]

It does seem like a lot at one go for a young chap, and I, too, don't really understand why it's necessary to use any sort of calmer. It would seem to me to defeat the object if he has to be "primed" with something first. Maybe take him to a lot of smaller events, even if not ridden, to get him used to the experience first.

 

[Pinkvboots]

If he is not happy and settled at a show why not just do the coloured class and call it a day, it is a big ask for a young excited horse to jump two courses of jumps and then be calm enough to do a ridden flat class even with a calmer, I would be spending the time before that class walking him around and getting him used to his surroundings not jumping.

 

[Queenbee]

That seems a lot of work for a youngster!
I personally am not a fan of calmers and opt for making sure the horse is properly prepared and relaxed rather than needing to stuff them with chemicals.

Totally understand that for some it is the only option (experienced older horse that knows what's coming so gets very over excited)...but for a youngster, this shouldn't be the case so much.

I'm really sorry, I don't mean to offend but you come across as incredibly patronising?! As a three year old, ben went to a local show in hand, where he found the activity difficult to handle. A week later at a county show (obviously better organised) he was in a much better frame of mind and did really well. Last summer he went to this show and did two clear rounds (poles on the ground) and a mini comp (2ft 3). All winter he has been doing regular indoor showjumping - 2-3 rounds, normally 2 ft 3 max but on occasion 2 ft 9. On all but one occasion he would have gladly done another round. I am pretty sure that one round of 70cm over 14 jumps (12 including two doubles) under a one phase rule and a working hunter over 6 small jumps with a small show is not going to kill him in the morning, by 11.30 he will be staying at a friends yard, his old yard until last thing in the evening and coming back for either in hand or ridden coloured, I know my horse, perhaps he is an exception to the rule but he won't blink at the workload, he will be ticked off by excited horses - hence the stop in a stable down the rd.

He does know what's coming, he loves his jumping, hence he gets excited when he enters a ring with anticipation. However other horses that get excited upset him, he can't help that at the moment, it's just who he is, at local shows there is a lot more tension than at a county show and it rubs him up the wrong way. I don't need a calmer to jump him, I need a calmer to take the worry away from him about the other excited horses for showing - one that won't affect his ability to jump. Clearly you can't advise on that,

 

[Queenbee]

Sorry guys, I've read some of the replies and it would seem i may have been miss interpreted or not made myself clear, I will try again! :/

As a three year old ben went to a local show in hand (bit of a nutter), one week later and at a county show for two days he was such a perfect dude, very well behaved in hand and under saddle.
Last year, he went to this show and got a clear round, one knock down in the clear round and four faults in the midi
This winter he has been showjumping a couple of times a month, he has a very lovely collection of ribbons.

His problem is not the jumping, yes he gets excited but he loves his job, I want to get him in the ring starting to show, and I'm sorry for those of you who say at six he is too young or that you would like your horse to be more foot perfect at flat work, Im not touched by that - I don't agree, I see this as an experience and don't care about winning. im working with ben on flatwork at home, but as much as that is so, I want him to start to experience showing and I believe he is ready for it. Without experience of shows, he is not going to overcome his issue of stalling. Ben under too much pressure will switch off, a moody horse tried to kick him - he would move, a horse jogging on the spot caused him to stand stock still, this is his worst behaviour, he hates horses that do not behave as they should and as such freaks out a bit around them.

I am considering using a calmer to relax him a bit for being at a local show where kids career around and horses misbehave to stop ben worrying about this. As for the jumping, I can jump ben with two hands tied behind my back riding on my head, his excitement helps, not hinders our jumping especially on grass. I just want to make sure it won't hamper his jumping.

For all the naysayers out there regarding the use of calmers, in general I don't hold to them, and no, nothing else worked on ben, but this does work, the LT hits him very visibly, within seconds of administering it he was asleep at the foot of the horsebox and hard to load, so no, it is not all in my head and hence why, although I know it works and although I have read of many people on here that use it to great effect to show some of the more highly strung horses, I wondered if any had any personal experience - not speculation (good or bad) of jumping with it.

 

[Queenbee]

If he is not happy and settled at a show why not just do the coloured class and call it a day, it is a big ask for a young excited horse to jump two courses of jumps and then be calm enough to do a ridden flat class even with a calmer, I would be spending the time before that class walking him around and getting him used to his surroundings not jumping.

He did two clear rounds and a course last year and was fine, he just couldn't deal with the more excitable horses being too near him - no kicking or anything, just tension and standing stock still. I am doing the unaffiliated part of the affiliated ring, this is the first class of the day (with the hope it will be more quiet for him) after this, is the WH. He should be finished by 11.30 max, it is because I care about him and want him to have as good and relaxed an experience as possible that we will then be riding to our old yard, ten mins down the rd for him to stable and relax for the day before the coloured class - the last class of the day

 

[Queenbee]

It does seem like a lot at one go for a young chap, and I, too, don't really understand why it's necessary to use any sort of calmer. It would seem to me to defeat the object if he has to be "primed" with something first. Maybe take him to a lot of smaller events, even if not ridden, to get him used to the experience first.

He has seen and experienced the experience before. He can cope, but I don't like to just chuck my horses in if I can make adjusting to such experiences easier for them. Why should they just have to "deal" with it when we as owners can support them in acclimatising? If it was just jumping, then it wouldn't be an issue, I suspect he will be more confused by a ridden class, something to take the edge and hence the pressure off will help him immensely and therefore make it a more relaxing and enjoyable experience, in the grand scheme of things for our youngsters - making things seem enjoyable and taking the pressure off is key for their future performance at such events.

 

[Leo Walker]

What about just doing the ridden class? You know hes ok jumping, its the showing that you think might upset him. So why not just do that class, so hes not expecting to jump? You could do the in hand and then the ridden. Keep it all very low key and easy for you both

 

[Fun Times]

I have no experience of riding a horse whilst on a calmer, sorry. Is the show field quite large? If its just the other horses that wind him up would it be possible to warm up away from the chaos? Presumably you are only jumping a fairly small class so long as he is warmed up you may be able to dispense with the need for a practice fence (as usually that is the craziest place to be).

 

[WelshD]

The defuse is one of those calmers that either doesn't touch a horse or works a bit too well. For the average show pony in a flat class this is less of an issue than in your case

Do you still have any of the CCC left? could that be an option as opposed to an 'on the day' calmer?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I wasn't going to say this but the more I read the more I think it, so here goes.

Why are you considering showing your horse in any ridden classes when your RIs have said that the best way forward is to concentrate on walk and trot until your core strength/position has improved, along with the horse's balance and paces?

If you want to get him so used to shows that he doesn't get over-excited, why not enter him in a couple of suitable in-hand classes?

 

[Queenbee]

I wasn't going to say this but the more I read the more I think it, so here goes.

Why are you considering showing your horse in any ridden classes when your RIs have said that the best way forward is to concentrate on walk and trot until your core strength/position has improved, along with the horse's balance and paces?

If you want to get him so used to shows that he doesn't get over-excited, why not enter him in a couple of suitable in-hand classes?

Because it is after all my horse and my decision, Not my instructors who was well aware that I Plan to both attend this show and do ridden classes and did not even reccomend against it. Instructors are there to help and guide you, but they realise that there is a bigger picture. If all I wanted to do in life with ben was dressage then it probably would be a very different thing, as it is, as much as we are having lessons, we have other things to focus on too. When schooling we stay in walk and trot, when jumping we step up to a canter in the school, practice for a ridden element of the show has primarily been incorporated into our jumping session or into our practice in the field, it does not interrupt our w&t schooling session. Is that clarified for you?


I'm really very sorry and I know this sounds incredibly rude but I am asking for specific feedback or insight relating to JUMPING and DEfuse calmer - this thread has nothing to do with what classes I chose to do or why, or whether I should or shouldn't be giving a calmer to a six year old, or about what my instructors opinion is. Clearly no one is able to provide the answer to the question I am posing. I think I will ring company advice line, if I am in doubt about the affects it will have on jumping ability I won't use it.

 

[Ropestores]

I've used de-fuse for jumping before. It certainly lit de-fuse lol. My horse went pure belter on it, jumped all he fences clear and ran like the wind. Aye.

 

[Cortez]

I can't help you with your specific question either I'm afraid, but I thought that L.Tryptophan was a banned substance? Or is that just for FEI?

 

[DabDab]

If you've got a spare dose then you could try it at home a few days before to give you an idea on jumping with it (sorry I've never used it, so can't share any experiences)? If you do use it at the show then you just have to have the resolution in your mind that if he feels 'off' at all you'll pull out.

 

[Merrymoles]

I'd worry about it "calming" the horse's ability to find an extra leg if necessary so personally would not. However, I don't use a calmer and therefore have no experience of it.

 

[Queenbee]

I can't help you with your specific question either I'm afraid, but I thought that L.Tryptophan was a banned substance? Or is that just for FEI?

I think it's just at an affiliated level. I know that a lot of people use it to show as it allows the horse to still sparkle whilst taking the edge off them.

If you've got a spare dose then you could try it at home a few days before to give you an idea on jumping with it (sorry I've never used it, so can't share any experiences)? If you do use it at the show then you just have to have the resolution in your mind that if he feels 'off' at all you'll pull out.

Yes, I think that's what I'm going to do, I know it works on him, but initially it works a bit too well, last time I used it I administerd it and he was virtually asleep whilst trying to load him - admittedly he was more awake during the show! But I just don't want him to be too asleep to jump :/ I think I will try it at home on Saturday and see how we go then.

I'd worry about it "calming" the horse's ability to find an extra leg if necessary so personally would not. However, I don't use a calmer and therefore have no experience of it.

Yep, that's my concern, on the other hand he is a very eager horse, I'm hoping that if it works it will help him to find that middle ground and a better pace inbetween the jumps as he wont be fighting as much. Well, I can but try on Saturday at home and go from there!

Thank you all

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Of course, it is your decision, OP. I would not want to spend my hard-earned cash on lessons to ignore the advice of the RI. Flatwork schooling is the basis of jumping, the skill lies at least as much in getting round the arena as in getting over the jumps, so I would have thought that your lessons would be forming the basis of all your work, not just of an occasional dressage test.

However, you obviously have your own ideas of the best way to bring a youngster on.

 

[Merrymoles]

I know I am old fashioned but calmers did not exist for years and, therefore, my view would always be to establish flat work with a young horse before jumping it anywhere it might get too "hot". I have been known to bring a horse back to walk between fences on more than one occasion if I am using the show as a schooling opportunity.

 

[Queenbee]

Of course, it is your decision, OP. I would not want to spend my hard-earned cash on lessons to ignore the advice of the RI. Flatwork schooling is the basis of jumping, the skill lies at least as much in getting round the arena as in getting over the jumps, so I would have thought that your lessons would be forming the basis of all your work, not just of an occasional dressage test.

However, you obviously have your own ideas of the best way to bring a youngster on.

I'm not ignoring the advice of my instructor, if you read my reply you would have read that he has not advised against either jumping or showing, you have but then you are not my instructor. For what it's worth, I had a complex set of jumps up and he got around them just fine two days ago, he made the turns and the corners just fine, so some incredibly positive impact from the lessons there. In addition he cleared all the jumps nicely adjusted his stride, and didn't knock a jump. On Monday he practiced over xc jumps and I believe this has had as much of a positive impact as the flatwork lessons.

I do indeed have my own ideas, but then I know my horse. I'm not going to spend all my time in the school doing walk and trot and boring him to death. As much as we have training to do we also have other activities to do, I'm a realist and he world doesn't just stop and wait. As long as he continues to progress nicely in his flatwork (which he is) there is no reason not to go out to shows and enjoy ourselves. It's supposed to be fun, not a chore and for him jumping is fun.

 

[Queenbee]

I know I am old fashioned but calmers did not exist for years and, therefore, my view would always be to establish flat work with a young horse before jumping it anywhere it might get too "hot". I have been known to bring a horse back to walk between fences on more than one occasion if I am using the show as a schooling opportunity.

He gets hot whenever he sees a jump, but he is not unmanageable, and he is a lot better than he was, he can contain his own enthusiasm and use it for the good, he has been competing twice a month all winter, it's not for his jumping that he needs the calmer, it's for the showing or rather the standing around other horses that are behaving like idiots - it upsets him and makes him anxious... That makes him mentally shut down and tense at the same time. I need the calmer to help him with that - but won't use the calmer if it affects his ability to jump as I won't put him in that position. I've picked our classes carefully, the very first and the very last of the day.... So there should be the least amount of competitors there and plenty of space. It's more the WH I want the calmer for, it's a small 2 ft three class of six jumps, but then there is the showing after. I want to know he has help with his anxiety for the showing that won't affect his jumping the WH course. After the WH he will be able to relax down the rd in a stable with hay before he turns up very last thing for the coloured class when only a few competitors will still be around.

 

[YorksG]

I think you will have to leave it up to the judge to decide if you can ride him in the WH class with a calmer or not, as I presume you will be disclosing this fact.

 

[Queenbee]

I think you will have to leave it up to the judge to decide if you can ride him in the WH class with a calmer or not, as I presume you will be disclosing this fact.

no, if i use a calmer, i will not. its a small local show and a novice class. The kind of show that you take young horses to for experience, many people use calmers - I see no reason to disclose this fact, there is nothing underhand about that. I also know of many people who use this calmer at county level showing - none of them disclose that either. Im really not sure why you felt the need to post that.

 

[YorksG]

I posted, as I feel that even at local level people should try to show their horses without the aid of substances which are banned at higher levels, No wonder showing gets a bad reputation when people insist on taking short cuts. Would you agree with a 'ploddy' horse being given something to 'pep' it up?

 

[Fun Times]

Howay folks, she is only taking him to a little local show for experience, not planning on thrashing him round Badminton. And as for disclosing the use of a calmer....really?? At a small local show? Would you disclose turmeric? Devils claw supplements? Gastro guard? All of them influence how a horse goes, most are probably illegal at FEI but come on, a degree of pragmatism here surely?

Eta: am sure at BE certain calmers are permitted in any case.

 

[Queenbee]

I posted, as I feel that even at local level people should try to show their horses without the aid of substances which are banned at higher levels, No wonder showing gets a bad reputation when people insist on taking short cuts. Would you agree with a 'ploddy' horse being given something to 'pep' it up?

Yes actually, I would - its called feeding it oats. First indoor showjumping this winter ben had a calmer he rode around the collecting area, he walked over some poles on the ground in the indoor school then came home, he then did all winter indoor competitions without a calmer, this is the first outdoor show this year, there will be a lot of kids pratting around and it will be his first ridden showing class, therefore I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with my decision to use a calmer to make it an easier experience for him. I dont go to every show and pump my horse full of calmer. the very fact that I have been jumping all winter and clearly am asking about the calmer and its affect on jumping should tell you that I dont go out and about with a doped horse all the time. The assumption you have made comes across as incredibly judgemental and snobby. However, in all honesty, if a calmer makes a nervy horse more relaxed and focused or a dose of extra oats peps up a lazy horse - thats fine by me if someone wants to do that at a local level. Using a calmer may calm the horse but it doesn't mean that a lot of hard work has not gone into that horse, neither does it (in my opinion) take anything away from other horses in the ring.

There was a thread a couple of days ago on here, by a woman who had gone to a show, showing a welsh and there was a horse in the ring that misbehaved and kicked out at everything - this horse was pulled up first, I would rather that horse be given a calmer than not!!

Im pretty sick to be honest of the attitude - 'we never had calmers' so they shouldn't be used, good god, we never had calmers when I was initially competing either. Yes, horses learn from training and experience, but if a horse goes out to a show and is so stressed out it has a bad experience - common sense tells me the next time stands a good chance of being harder for the horse. If however, the horses experience can be assisted in being the least stressful possible - then the chances are far better that the horse will very quickly be able to get to a point where it will be able to go to shows in a good frame of mind and be less stressed.