showjumping with a high head carriage

[Danindigo]

so, the eventing season has all but finished and i seriously need to work on one of my horses jumping technique.

hes a 7yo TB who i bought out of racing in June 2011 having had a couple of runs over fences. Hes a particularly excitable/stressy type at competitions such as ODE's where there plenty going on with loads of boxes etc although at home and at dressage hes laid back. Ive managed to get in a couple of runs this back-end for some experience for him so he can have a think about it over the winter ready for the spring but although hes gone clear XC both times they've been far from smooth and he had 4 poles down in each SJ round.

The problem is that as soon as he sees the fence he tanks towards it with his head very high and i assume most of the time he cant even see the fence when he gets close to it! Hes not one of these who will tank & stand off it either, he tanks then gets right underneath it & hasnt the technique to get himself from underneath it & over it without having the pole down. He was doing this in a snaffle, flash & running martingale so ive played about & used at tthe weekend at his last eventy a jointed pelham with double reins, flash with sheepskin noseband, ear covers & running martingale all of which i thought were making a difference at home but the effect seems to be wearing off.

The dressage phase is fine - he was relaxed & did a good test, nice and round and in a contact. if only it was like that to jump!!

so, has anyone got any advice / tips as to what to try over the coming months?

 

[kirstykate]

Lots and lots of pole/grid work

 

[Sarah_Jane]

As above with poles on landing for him to look down at. Also have you had teeth checked by a v good dentist? My mare had terrible high head carriage, vet and equine dentist had done teeth as well as pssed 2x vettings. However took her to Bob Livlock (best dentist imo) and he found some wolf tooth fragments embedded in the gum. It wasn't an instant fix but my horses going has improved enormously over the last 3 months.

 

[Danindigo]

that is my next task - gridwork. im not sure how he will react as hes one of those horses that knows he can knock a pole and it not bother him!

ill try the pole after the fence too as ive done that with another of my ex-racers.

he has had his teeth checked - all of mine are done regularly and he had not obvious problems. like i say his flatwork is coming on a treat with not high head issues whatsoever it only when he sees a fence although at the moment he canter is physically weak (although improving) which is no doubt not helping his jumping !

 

[_EVS_]

You are describing my lad to a T!! I have been trying to do plenty of gridwork but have also been trotting into fences a bit - take the height out of the equation and just quietly trot into the fence (or first part of a grid) - for mine it has made him have to think that little bit harder about where his legs are. Also just circling (or ovaling!!) a few times before the fence until he is settled and I am ready to approach to get him out the habit of coming round the corner and belting at the fence. Im not going to advocate spending hours trotting into fences but I find if I do a few warming up and maybe come to the first fence on a small track it does help a little. I have had to forget about height for a bit until he has learnt to be a little more controlled! Good luck - its horrid when they bury you in the base of a fence. There are far more experienced people than I on here so Im sure you (and I!) will get some helpful responses x

 

[Countrychic]

Probably going to be ranted at but I had great success with a Market harbrough, soft nathe bit and low hands that didn't check but kept a hold. Lots of grids at home too

 

[Danindigo]

i have been doing the circling around the fence and basically confusing him until i radomly pop the fence & it does make a difference. the problem comes when in the ring & i cant do that & it made for an interesting round shall we say!!!

ive never tried a market harborough before but ill give anything a try - i want to give it my best shot over the winter to see if the horse can adapt his mindset of jumping like a racehorse flat and through the fence rather than basculing over it.

 

[Danindigo]

does anyone else having any tips / suggestions that may help?

 

[Kat]

Have you tried ^ poles on the fence to back him off a bit and get him thinking about where his legs are? might be worth while alongside some grids etc.

 

[Kokopelli]

Be careful with poles before fence! Your lad sounds exactly like mine and it took a good 6 months to get his head in a reasonable position. I say be careful with poles because my lad was too busy trying to take my front teeth out he almost fell on his face tripping over the poles.

Are you using too much hand and not enough leg? How much leg do you use? You'll be surprised how much leg you need to put despite them tanking.

I found with my boy trying to make jumping very boring was key. I would go into the fence (very small) at walk and about 2 strides out I will halt once he relaxes himself I'll then let him go over it then immedietly halt him on the other side. Once he was good at this I would then progress to trot and eventually I would let him canter but this did take a while.

Another good exercise is setting up a course of jumps and ride around them, then randomly pop over one then keep schooling making it no big deal.

My final trick with my lad (who opposed martingale) was a sheepskin noseband.

Here is a video of him where he is quite worked up but at this point had him about a year so knew how to deal with it without his ears going up my nose.

[youtube]bJ023vcKmwE?hd=1[/youtube]

 

[Danindigo]

yes - ive been doing 'A' frames over the last few weeks leading upto Saturdays event & like everything im trying it seems to works well when i first start doing it but then he gets used to it and the effect wears off!

 

[Danindigo]

i am probably am using to much hand at times i have to admit but im also using plenty of leg to get energy into the canter otherwise theres no punch - just a lazy canter that fires up and goes flat towards a fence. useful video to watch & i think Olly was a brave man as your kad didnt look to interested in slowing down when coming towards him!!! i think the difference in the horses is that yours used his energy when taking off where as my isnt at the moment. ive got plenty of faith in him - i just need to find the key!

 

[Brimmers]

whats he like with fillers and "scary" jumps?

That helped my boy slow down and look at them before he realised they were no longer scary.

going through a grid of bounce/one strides with someone stood in front of the last jump helped my boy back right off, just be quick to support with your leg so they really have to use themself and "jump"

if there are no physical problems its all about making them realise its much nicer/easier/fun if they can jump without fighting you

good luck =) will be watching this thread for ideas as well!

 

[TarrSteps]

A bigger shadow roll might be something to try.

As mentioned, rule out anything physical, obviously but also give some thought to HOW he sees. It could be he HAS to raise his head to focus on the jumps, depending on the conformation of his eye/head. While the idea that horses have only a "ramped retina" to focus with seems to have been disproved they do still change focal length by moving their heads. I've ridden a couple of horses over the years who virtually seemed to panic when the jumps were small but settle if they were larger because then they could keep sight of the top bar longer. Another didn't panic and speed up/stop (he was much more chilled generally) but virtually stood on his head over small fences, staring at them, making for a nervewracking and uncomfortable jump and an angry horse.

It's not the most likely explanation but worth observing.

Do you free jump/longe over fences at all? It would be interesting to see where he puts his head left to his own devices.

 

[Danindigo]

what are peoples thoughts on using the market haborough for this? any experiences?

also i know of people using a hollow metallic pole for sj so if a horse knocks it with a hoof it clangs, encouraging them to pick them up. asnyone heard of this?

 

[Lolo]

What do you mean by high head carriage exactly?

What does he do on the lunge over fences without you?

Reg has a high head carriage SJ, and the work is keeping him round between fences but once he's seen them his head does come up. But, lots of work on the lunge, and pole work properly, and an elasticated standing martingale for a week or two and he's so much better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miV_PSLBVxQ&feature=results_video
Shows what I mean about roundness between fences, compared to the actual approach I think. He's an ex-racer too, doesn't do it XC!

 

[Danindigo]

his flatwork is perfectly round but the more he jumps a fence the worse he gets - as soon as he turns his head is so high i can almost see his nose and how i havent hit heads yet when folding i dont know!

ive not tried lunging him over jumps yet - im looking for a jump block to replace a standard wing so i can try this.

looking at your clip your horse is much clamer than mine - im charging into the fence & he cant see it, my point proven at Norton Disny last week in the XC when there was a ditch, a stride then a fence - he saw the fence so head up and put his front legs straight in the ditch - didnt even see it. ok, so he picked himself up really well to jump the fence but thats not the point!!

 

[Countrychic]

Why don't you just try a MH and see how he responds? Different things for different horses, the more things you try the more chance you have of finding the tack hes happy in ( obviously within reason).
I personally don't like the sound of the metal pole but then mine are all spooky warmbloods that are careful. If they did something like that it would put them off more than teach them anything

 

[Ali16]

I would seriously suggest free schooling him if you can over some simple fences. We had a horse in for selling recently that was for sale for the very same reasons you describe in your OP. High head carriage and going at fences v fast. Lots of poles falling all the time.

After free schooling her and riding her over the same fences (& videoed both) we sat down and analysed the footage. It was amazing! When I was on her she was so focused on me that she didn't think about the fence & there was just a sudden 'OMG I HAVE TO JUMP!'.

When looking at her free schooling she was much more focused on the fence and therefore making a nicer shape and clearing it by miles. I therefore started to jump her with little or no contact & she's gone from being a 16 fault horse to a clear round queen!

It might not be a magic cure like it was for us, but definitely an interesting exercise & would highly recommend.

 

[Countrychic]

This is honestly not a dig just a genuine question. How can you collect and adjust the horse when tracks get more technical if it won't accept the contact? Would you not need to work on the horse becoming happy and relaxed in the contact so when the tracks get more difficult you can help and adjust?

 

[TarrSteps]

I would very much stay away from rapping a horse such as the one you describe. He's not a horse jumping well but having the occasional lazy rail and frightening him - which is the point of the metal rail - will not help him relax, focus, or accept you input.

Out of curiosity, what are your trainer's thoughts? Has he/she had a sit on him?

 

[Lolo]

his flatwork is perfectly round but the more he jumps a fence the worse he gets - as soon as he turns his head is so high i can almost see his nose and how i havent hit heads yet when folding i dont know!

ive not tried lunging him over jumps yet - im looking for a jump block to replace a standard wing so i can try this.

looking at your clip your horse is much clamer than mine - im charging into the fence & he cant see it, my point proven at Norton Disny last week in the XC when there was a ditch, a stride then a fence - he saw the fence so head up and put his front legs straight in the ditch - didnt even see it. ok, so he picked himself up really well to jump the fence but thats not the point!!

That's 3 years of seriously hard work later, lol! It's the best example I have of how he now jumps now after the stupendous amount of time Al ha spent with very good instructors improving him. Whereabouts are you? Maybe someone can recommend someone they know has been good with their similar horse?

FWIW, it might just be that endless repetition of walking over poles, to trotting over them, to trotting into tiny fences and gradually building up so jumping isn't something he has to worry or panic about.

 

[Lyle]

Just going to add my two cents worth I've retrained a couple that went like how you've described- first jump session I had blisters down the length of my fingers!

It sounds to me like it is all just VERY exciting, perhaps to the point where he's feeling overwhelmed and just switching off into a rather manic autopilot.

You say his flat work is good, so I'd be going right back to basics with the jumping. Poles on the ground and walking/trotting, adjusting stride length, random circles, transitions etc until the whole exercise is a bit boring and he starts to relax. Then do it again but in canter. This might take a few weeks, but I wouldn't be putting him over a fence until he can canter and pop, canter pop over poles without rushing and getting anxious, from big canter and small canter. High head carriage doesn't really bother me as long as they aren't pulling/rushing/wobbling etc. The canter has to stay balanced and adjustable.

Then introduce the small fences, with shorter combinations to encourage the horse to back off itself. I tend to just sit as we go through and if they flatten and take it out with their knees, well that's their problem! They have to work it out, if they can't work out how not to hit a fence then I'd be rather cautious jumping over fixed obstacles.

Sometimes over-riding and trying to correct the horse works in the opposite way, the horse tries harder to take control. That's why I do believe sometimes the horse has to work it out for itself.

 

[kerilli]

^^^ this is all good advice.
I doubt he's clumsy, so no way would I go the way of the metal pole, that is for established careless horses.
It sounds to me as if he is panicking and rushing. Not seeing the ditch at ND and sticking his feet in it... jeez, you are braver than me! He just sounds totally clueless about staying calm to the fence, judging it, and using his body correctly to get over it. Luckily he sounds brave but that won't last forever.
If you put something on the landing side of the fence, please please make it a plank not a pole, so that if he treads on it, it won't roll.
I would do loads of schooling amongst fences and just pop the odd one, but don't try to sneak him to it, he needs time to take it in and learn to judge it. If he gets silly and rushes, halt, rein back, small circle left and right in walk maybe, go to it again. Repeat if necessary. Get the control (whatever it takes) before going to a fence.
Market harb - hmm, depends on the horse. I tried one on a v stressy ex-racer who was very similar to your boy, never stopped at anything, and she refused to go over a pole on the ground with it on, had a panic about the possible restriction (it wasn't tight either).
Loads of time to get him listening to you and paying attention to you and the fence on the way in, and I'm sure he'll be transformed. I wouldn't jump any fixed fences on one like this though, not yet!

Just remembered 2 good exercises that Lionel Dunning showed me for a horse who rushed. One is to canter round the school and halt at B and E, repeatedly. Get the horse used to listening and halting. Then come to fence, if horse tries to rush, halt. You've already established canter-> halt so it should be clearer and easier for the horse. Then rein back, small circle left and right, etc.
Also, cantering down the school and past the fence, so you canter parallel to approach to fence. Do this a few times till horse totally ignores fence. Then come down on same line but about 5 strides out change your angle slightly and calmly pop fence. Horse shouldn't rush as is usually still in 'cantering down the arena' mode. Loads of praise if he stays calm and pops fence nicely, obviously.

 

[soulfull]

Micah uses to do this too. Not nice
I started circling him until he settle. First time took me 20 mins!! Including bucking, threatening to rear and bouncing sideways towards the jump. once he approached nicely he could jump, otherwise we circled again
Each time it got easier but it was hard work
I did then have to
Sacrifice a few classes and circle in there too, as he realised the difference between schooling and competition. By the end a child could have jumped him

 

[Danindigo]

so i tried loose jumping him for the first time on saturday - he took to it really well and surprised me tbh. i learnt a few things from it too:

1) he didnt speed up at all into the fence
2) he still preferrred to get in close
3) he still carries his head high but not nearly as high as when hes ridden
4) he was still just as lazy over a fence

what do we think?

 

[kerilli]

so i tried loose jumping him for the first time on saturday - he took to it really well and surprised me tbh. i learnt a few things from it too:

1) he didnt speed up at all into the fence
2) he still preferrred to get in close
3) he still carries his head high but not nearly as high as when hes ridden
4) he was still just as lazy over a fence

what do we think?

That tells us quite a lot, I think. Did you try it with placing poles or a small fence to get him to an ideal spot, or did he consistently choose to add one into the base?
If he didn't speed up at all then he's tense with a rider on, either physically (teeth, saddle, back, maybe) or mentally (training). Ditto the head carriage being improved.
Lazy over a fence - how was he hitting them? In front, or behind? Consistently, or varying? If he hit it once, did he make more effort next time? What shape was he making, did he bascule? Any pics/vids? How big were the fences, and what sort of shape? Certain types help a horse to throw a specific jump, obviously.

If you can do it again, I'd set it up with a small solid-looking fence (say 1'6") then a perfect distance (7-8 yards depending on his stride) to a bigger fence (ascending spread, ideally, with big obvious ground line, and back bar a diff colour to front bar, ideally), and video it.

 

[Danindigo]

quick q. how do you post pics on here?

 

[Danindigo]

this was ND which gives an idea - theres 10 pics ther if you keep clicking next.

http://www.saundersphotography.co.uk/gaz1783#photo


ive also added an album - let me know if you can view them ok?

 

[kerilli]

yep, saw them fine. okay... he's getting in VERY close at times, that SJ spread he was almost underneath, good boy to go tbh, he's honest! he's not taking off evenly behind every time either, sometimes he's taking off with back feet apart (1 well in front of the other) and this is imho a green/worried horse thing... also it screws up what distance you thought you had... he steps in too far with his last inside hind in canter. (my mare does this too, the one I had at ND, she's gradually improving I think.) he doesn't look careless to me, he looks worried/clueless.
I would do LOADS of work with poles on the floor to help him with his distance. The one I'm using at the moment is 1 from Horsehero, Dirk Schrade. Pole (or ideally plank) at 3 metres, then another 6 metres further, then another 9 metres on, from the small upright. So horse goes plank, 2 strides, plank, 1 stride, plank, touchdown, fence. No chance of missing. N.B. Having done it a few times I have shortened the distances a foot or so ish because my mare's v bold and I want her to condense a tiny bit.
btw I don't think he's lazy at all, just clueless. if you don't have a good person on the floor while you're jumping, you need one, to help you both with this.
btw, what kind of pelham are you using?