Sick of outline threads but a genuine question!

KarlyHT

KarlyHT

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I won't bore you with all the detail as outline threads are non stop at the moment but I read on here earlier that you know when your horse is working correctly and in a correct outline when the neck muscles bulge out in the middle.

Is this correct? This happens but I almost feel as though my mare is a bit behind the vertical when I see this happening?

I have regular instruction so please don't panic but not seeing my instructor till the weekend and musing over a glass of wine.

Thanks all!
 
KarlyHT said:
I won't bore you with all the detail as outline threads are non stop at the moment but I read on here earlier that you know when your horse is working correctly and in a correct outline when the neck muscles bulge out in the middle.

Is this correct? This happens but I almost feel as though my mare is a bit behind the vertical when I see this happening?

I have regular instruction so please don't panic but not seeing my instructor till the weekend and musing over a glass of wine.

Thanks all!
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My feeling is you couldn't say comprehensively, how the muscles should look on a horse going correctly, because there are too many variables to consider. After all, some horses look muscly but are really fat. Some horses are naturally cresty, shorter through the neck etc
So my very modest, novice opinion this evening is no, you cannot tell simply by a muscle bulge :)
 
KarlyHT said:
you know when your horse is working correctly and in a correct outline when the neck muscles bulge out in the middle.
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Completely incorrect. When your horse has a bulge in the muscles of the neck in the middle then your horse is working in a false outline. The neck muscles should be smooth from ears to base of neck.

Working correctly has everything to do with a lifting of the back, engaging the stomach muscles and tucking the hind end underneath. You cannot judge based on how the neck looks.
 
*sprinkles* said:
Completely incorrect. When your horse has a bulge in the muscles of the neck in the middle then your horse is working in a false outline. The neck muscles should be smooth from ears to base of neck.

Working correctly has everything to do with a lifting of the back, engaging the stomach muscles and tucking the hind end underneath. You cannot judge based on how the neck looks.
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Yes the above is true, though the horse can look quite flashy - the one and only time I got my TB on the bit, for one truly amzing dressage test - the feeling was as if the reins were made of silk thread, and I just had to move my weight a tiny iota to get an amazing transistion.......To know what this feels like, then the only real way is to ride a school master.......
 
That's the responses I wanted... Thank you! I can't remember who posted about the neck bulge now but as I said it didn't feel correct when my mare did this... Hollow and not connected. Glad I checked! Thanks all!
 
I found the post I was referring to -

"She showed me what the horses' neck should look like from above - the big muscle in the middle of their neck should bulge outwards, and there's a tendon near the base of their neck that you should be able to see when the horse is in the correct place.

(Mine was a little ewe-necked so the tendon was easier to see than it is now that she's muscled in that area)"
 
People should forget that word.. "OUTLINE".

It's completely made up by I don't know who...

It was never in the old masters books. All they ever talked about was engagement, cadence and lightness. That's all that mattered. If your horse is working correctly, it didn't matter what a specific muscle looked like. That is bonkers! Utter tripe. Just goes to show how you can make something up and it become the bible.

The real test of whether your horse is under your control, which is what dressage and schooling is all about, is if you can make it do what you want with the lightest aids. Not whether you need a dutch gag with a curb strap and a crank noseband and a standing martingle and biceps you could show off down the nearest gayboy gym. Nicely topped off with a fake crystal browband.

Forget the stupid neck, concentrate what you can feel coming from the arse end of the horse. All that power you think is reserved for kicking the daylight out of you is, contrary to popular belief, for WORKING. That's where your precious little "outline" comes from.

gah.
 
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Totally with you on that one tallyho! We are not anywhere near it yet as only been in proper work for 6 weeks now and she's only just turned 6 but its more for the sake of developing her muscles properly as we recently found a problem in her back and I want to be aware of it.

I promise no flash, martingale, draw reins etc!! :) I am not aiming to achieve an outline for the sale of having a pretty horse in an outline!
 
Ok I have calmed down now... :D

For what it's worth Karly, the younger the horse is when you concentrate on the back-end and the back itself, the less problems you will have later. Honestly. Same goes for starting older horses the correct way. It doesn't matter how long you've had 1 week or 6, you should always focus on the hind and back first and foremost. Remember that old adage of getting the horse "forward'. That is the foundation step for starting all horses. If you have no forward, you have no engine. That should have been the first lesson for the horse.

If you focus on tuning the engine, the other muscles will develop correctly, there is no physiological way that they cannot. That longissimus/lattisimus Dorsi muscle is what you should be developing correctly, then the trapezius and every other muscle will develop correctly too. Follow the old masters, not the emperors new clothes :)
 
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Totally agree with tallyho - my horse puts himself in "an outline" as todays people like to call it on the lunge in a rope halter just because he is stepping under. I always thought it was illogical to want calm forward and straight, then stop the front end by hanging on to it.
 
Thanks Tally Ho! Can't quote on phone but "If you focus on tuning the engine, the other muscles will develop correctly". This is exactly what I am trying to achieve and not just an outline for outlines sake. I want the outline to be the end result not the starting point ... it was more a musing about is it really that easy to tell if a horse is working correctly behind by the neck!!!

Good advice!! Much appreciated!
 
I added a bit to my last post. Apologies if I went off on one...

In answer to your question about the neck... no, forget that. Feel that horse is powering underneath you, and then feel the horse lightening in front. That's how you can tell a horse is working correctly. Lateral work will help you.

:)
 
tallyho! said:
People should forget that word.. "OUTLINE".

It's completely made up by I don't know who...

It was never in the old masters books. All they ever talked about was engagement, cadence and lightness. That's all that mattered. If your horse is working correctly, it didn't matter what a specific muscle looked like. That is bonkers! Utter tripe. Just goes to show how you can make something up and it become the bible.

The real test of whether your horse is under your control, which is what dressage and schooling is all about, is if you can make it do what you want with the lightest aids. Not whether you need a dutch gag with a curb strap and a crank noseband and a standing martingle and biceps you could show off down the nearest gayboy gym. Nicely topped off with a fake crystal browband.

Forget the stupid neck, concentrate what you can feel coming from the arse end of the horse. All that power you think is reserved for kicking the daylight out of you is, contrary to popular belief, for WORKING. That's where your precious little "outline" comes from.

gah.
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Hehe, love it TH! There seems such a fixation what's happening up front, from rider hands, reins, neck and nose (and I'm def guilty of this!), but ignoring the back end.
 
I guess it's easy to focus on what you can see, rather than what you can FEEL.

When you start to feel, you start to ride... I know, I say it like I've always known it but I haven't. It was only when I started riding again 12 years ago after a break for uni did I start to question my own ability to ride, and actually considered the horse itself. My dad gave me a book he found by Gueriniere which led me down the classical route... Oliviera, Sylvia Loch etc. I never knew, I was certainly never taught in this way.

I guess my frustrations stem from the fact that so much of simple equitation is forgotten and people rely so much on tack. It's so sad to me. But if I hadn't got that book, I would probably be doing the same :( All the while, classical seems to be simply disappearing... Carl Hester may be its modern saviour... I hope!
 
Tallyho are you within reach of Knutsford, Cheshire? They do a fair bit of Classical clinics there, Francois Lemaire de Ruffieu (ex Cadre Noir) and Andreas Hausberger (SRS) are both doing clinics there this year - Francois is a regular, twice a year.
 
JillA said:
Tallyho are you within reach of Knutsford, Cheshire? They do a fair bit of Classical clinics there, Francois Lemaire de Ruffieu (ex Cadre Noir) and Andreas Hausberger (SRS) are both doing clinics there this year - Francois is a regular, twice a year.
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Interesting JillA, whereabouts are they being held, do you have a link?
 
I know sweet FA about dressage. When I was young it was something the posh people did.:o

But everything Tallyho has said was the basic starting point for anything/everything.

People now talk as if they know so much, lots of technical terms and technical sounding equipment, but the basic of getting a horses back end underneath to support everything you want to do was understood years back.

Takes work though, maybe that's the problem?:D
 
tallyho! said:
People should forget that word.. "OUTLINE".

It's completely made up by I don't know who...

It was never in the old masters books. All they ever talked about was engagement, cadence and lightness. That's all that mattered. If your horse is working correctly, it didn't matter what a specific muscle looked like. That is bonkers! Utter tripe. Just goes to show how you can make something up and it become the bible.

The real test of whether your horse is under your control, which is what dressage and schooling is all about, is if you can make it do what you want with the lightest aids. Not whether you need a dutch gag with a curb strap and a crank noseband and a standing martingle and biceps you could show off down the nearest gayboy gym. Nicely topped off with a fake crystal browband.

Forget the stupid neck, concentrate what you can feel coming from the arse end of the horse. All that power you think is reserved for kicking the daylight out of you is, contrary to popular belief, for WORKING. That's where your precious little "outline" comes from.

gah.
Click to expand...

Like
 
KarlyHT said:
I found the post I was referring to -

"She showed me what the horses' neck should look like from above - the big muscle in the middle of their neck should bulge outwards, and there's a tendon near the base of their neck that you should be able to see when the horse is in the correct place.
Click to expand...

What a load of twaddle!

Tallyho is completely right.

I'm absolutely fed up of reading about where the horse's head and riders hands should be - whatever happened to 'self-carriage'?
 
Pearlsasinger... Your name always makes me smile as my new horses name is Pearl!

Interesting debate everyone. I guess for me it's about having total confidence in my own ability and judgement and by this I mean I think she's starting to use herself properly and there are moments (increasingly more moments!) where I "feel" she is using herself properly but it would be fab to just have an easy way of checking to confirm, hence the bulge in the neck check. However as i said in my opening post, wjen she has done this (out hacking bizarrely!) it didnt feel right! My yard owner/instructor is classically trained and is giving excellent guidance so I shall carry on as is! Thanks again all and let's hope this post helps to refocus people on the classical way!
 
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