Side-effects of frequent IV sedation

[Caol Ila]

Let's say your horse required IV sedation in order to be shod. This obviously happens every six weeks. Stuff like Domosedan and Sedalin don't work. Horse will fight through them. You need the vet with their needle.

It's obviously expensive, and I know there are risks to the farrier of the horse waking up suddenly, but do the medical risks increase? Does anyone know?

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I have found that over time it doesn't work as well and I am only using it 2 or 3 times a winter for clipping. I have been doing some of the same horses for upwards of 6 years and it definitely doesn't work as well these days. As for long term detrimental effects - non that I have seen but again, I am not using it such quantities year round.

 

[Zoeypxo]

Good question, had one who had to be sedated for shoes.
In the end we just took him barefoot mainly due to the cost! He was fine

 

[Caol Ila]

It's a complicated situation. The horse in question had his front shoes taken off (for this reason) maybe six-ish months ago, but he can be a wee bit footy. For reasons no one quite understands, he will try to take your face off with his front feet when you try to put on hoof boots.

 

[lizziebell]

Try contacting Michael Peace. A friend had him out to help with a horse who needed sedating to be shod. I was very skeptical, but results were incredible and the horse never needed sedating again - even the farrier was impressed and had never seen anything like it. He’s not cheap, but cheaper long term than sedating.

 

[Caol Ila]

Does he come as far as Scotland?

 

[SEL]

When the Appy was a horrible 4yo the vets would sedate her for just about anything. After twice in one week (hoof trim and eye exam) I asked if there were any long term impacts and they said no.

She gets done for teeth annually and still only needs a pony dose.

 

[lizziebell]

Does he come as far as Scotland?

He visits all over the country, but does charge mileage so to make it cost effective you’d want to piggy back when he’s doing others in Scotland. It only took one visit from Michael for this horse to get over the showing issues.

 

[Boulty]

A friend does have to do this with hers and has done for years. He’s got a wonkyness that wasn’t corrected as a foal that he’s remedially shod to compensate for (she did have him barefoot for a while but he him going lame in that leg is why investigations were done that found the deformity & I guess that as shoeing him seems to keep him sound they don’t wish to rock the boat) He’s not had any problems arise from it despite a history of liver disease (liver fluke I think?)

Putting that aside for a moment the orange one used to be really reactive to being shod & was approaching the point sedation would be required (looking back unsure why the last farrier I used kept consenting to do him without if I’m honest) as he’d flung several shoes across the shop, used to routinely go up whilst shoes were nailed on, caused minor injuries to himself and the farrier, had been struck off the books of a few people… Had several vets tell me it was behavioural. I never really bought it but what can you do when you’ve MRI scanned the foot & been told none of the several soft tissue changes are “significant “ / when the vet who did your lameness work up is a massive arsehole. This is the same horse that ended up at Rockley (& his behaviour to be shod was definitely one of the reasons that path appealed to me). Nic took one look at his feet and basically said with how stretched everything was / the state of collapse they were in that nailing on would almost certainly be painful for him & that’s why he reacted like he did. But despite being the biggest drama queen ever he was actually ok about hoof boots.

Basically in your friends shoes if she’s not wanting to have to sedate the horse every 6 weeks I’d be getting both a vet and behaviourist involved to try and rule out pain (although from my own experiences vets can definitely miss subtle & not so subtle symptoms) and try to figure out WHAT bit of the shoeing/ booting process is so offensive and how to make it less so.

 

[Caol Ila]

He wears Scoot boots and objects violently to you pulling the front tabs across his hoof. Started okay when he first got the boots (circa five or six months ago) and gradually got worse about it.

He panics when the farrier bangs on his feet. Tolerated glue on shoes but they were a pain and would fall off before the end of a shoeing cycle.

He has been treated for feather mites.

 

[tyner]

He wears Scoot boots and objects violently to you pulling the front tabs across his hoof. Started okay when he first got the boots (circa five or six months ago) and gradually got worse about it.

He panics when the farrier bangs on his feet. Tolerated glue on shoes but they were a pain and would fall off before the end of a shoeing cycle.

He has been treated for feather mites.

I can't answer your question about the sedatives, but it makes me wonder if the reaction to the hoof boots is the same in both feet?
Have solar xray views been taken?

If he needs more strength and protection on the walls, hoof casting tape /pour in pads are a lot cheaper and simpler than glue on shoes, you will likely need to replace more frequently than every 6 weeks in Scotland but can help with building sole depth and its more sympathetic than steel shoes. You're not hammering on the foot so it should be better tolerated than having to sedate for shoeing.

But if theres a pain reaction from pressure across the front of the hoof (maybe evidenced in the scoot boot example) casting tape might be hard to so and messy if he's striking out so you'd want to rule that out before hand.

 

[Caol Ila]

They have not been x-rayed, and his reaction is the same with both feet.

He's a cob with heavy feather, and he dislikes his feathers being clipped or monkeyed about with in any way. Which seems to be the case with a lot of cobs who have mites, mallendars, sallendars, etc. We'd wondered if his feathers had been caught in the tabs, and that's why he started getting upset about the boots. That was our theory, at any rate.

 

[Caol Ila]

It hasn't occurred to me that the horse could have pain across the front of his hoof. He has no obvious lameness (other than being a bit footy over rocks, but you would expect that with a transitioning horse). That would, however, explain the striking out at the Scoot boots.

I have suggested Hoof Armor. I have some that I bought but actually haven't needed, so I don't know how well it works.

 

[ihatework]

Has he got nasties hidden under all the feather creating a red herring?

 

[Caol Ila]

Vet comes out a few times per year to clip the feather under sedation. He gets injections for mites. He is due a clip.

 

[tyner]

If he's comfortable picking up his feet and holding than maybe the casting tape would work for him. But probably not a good idea to use epoxy around that feathered foot.
If he's a heavy cob and has done a lot of work barefoot or on hard ground there could be some demineralization at the front of the pedal bone. It doesn't always present as lameness but may account for hoof sensitivity.

 

[IveRunOutOfNamesToThinkOf]

It seems a PTSD reaction to the handling. You need to regularly handle him and show he’s not experiencing harm. Of course this is a generic way of saying this and I’m no horse psychologist. This is simply what I’ve been told in the past. I’m sure a better vet would have more sound advice, as drugging doesn’t seem a great solution long term for both financial and health reasons

 

[ponynutz]

What is it about the situation that scares him? We solved this with ours by cold shoeing instead - she hated the smoke/smell. Fairly simple solution that I’m sure you’ve thought of but just incase you hadn’t!

 

[clairebearnz]

Not entirely what you asked but one of my TBs, who is a stroppy colty type to handle, seems to believe that all IV jabs are sedatives and falls asleep as soon as you put the needle in even if it's antibiotics or IV fluids. Takes him about 5 mins to realise and go back to twatting around.

 

[planete]

I am not familiar with scoot boots and do not know how much they rely on pressure to stay on, would a different type of boot be less likely to provoke a reaction? I put my heavily feathered small cob’ s feet in a thin plastic bag prior to booting him with Cavallo boots which exert no pressure on the hooves. The plastic bags ensure the feathers lie unruffled inside the boots and disintegrate fairly quickly when he starts moving. i have heard great things about Hoof Armour too, certainly worth trying.

 

[Caol Ila]

What is it about the situation that scares him? We solved this with ours by cold shoeing instead - she hated the smoke/smell. Fairly simple solution that I’m sure you’ve thought of but just incase you hadn’t!

It's the nail-banging that upsets him. Some years ago, owner hired a clicker trainer try to help him, but he's a very food aggressive horse and +R got him so wound up, excited, and aggressive that it caused more problems than it solved. The trainer said she'd never work with him again!

I am not familiar with scoot boots and do not know how much they rely on pressure to stay on, would a different type of boot be less likely to provoke a reaction? I put my heavily feathered small cob’ s feet in a thin plastic bag prior to booting him with Cavallo boots which exert no pressure on the hooves. The plastic bags ensure the feathers lie unruffled inside the boots and disintegrate fairly quickly when he starts moving. i have heard great things about Hoof Armour too, certainly worth trying.

I think they do rely on pressure to stay on. When I had a pair of Scoots for my old horse, the tabs would feel quite tight depending on where she was in her growth cycle.

How trippy are they in Cavallos? I'd thought of that, but the horse is a bit of a klutz, and I know those ones are quite clunky, compared to boots like Scoots and Renegades.

It has been progressive. When he first got the boots, the horse was fine with it. Seemed great, as boots do! Then he started to stamp when you pulled the tabs. You could do it, but carefully. He escalated to more stamping, then to striking out, then bigger striking out, like throwing his foot up to head height. Tried the next size up in Scoots, but they fell off on a ride.

 

[maya2008]

If I had a horse like that I would try (probably in this order):
- different types of hoof boot;
- getting someone really really good (like Michael Peace) out to fix it. The cost of vet attendance and sedation would make the money spent well worth it just from a financial point of view;
- if nothing else worked, work hard on diet and barefoot rehab (maybe even send somewhere like Rockley if needed) to get hooves that were strong enough to not need any extra protection.

I had one that could not be shod, and we did no.3 because she was only funny on certain tracks, so I could work on diet and exercise to improve the foot, then gradually introduce the stonier tracks with me getting off at first for them. She did more arena/field work than others but always hacked at least twice a week. She was fine in the end. Trying to shoe her without sedation was a risk to life and limb and there were ways round it, so we didn’t. Never tried boots with her - diet seemed the easier route given we had softer tracks available to start on!

Regarding boots - I used old macs about 20 years ago, and found them beyond excellent for general leisure hacking. They didn’t put pressure on the front I don’t think. We eventually didn’t need them (hoof hardened up) but for the year we did, they were brilliant.

 

[sbloom]

Dorothy Heffernan, behaviourist, would be a good person to contact in the first instance if you want to go that route, I think she's pretty local to you.

 

[Sossigpoker]

If I had a horse like this ,.that was so reactive to the banging ,.I'd treat it as a pain issue and investigate with the vet .
Mine used to be pretty difficult to shoe to start with - he was terrified of the smoke but got used to it fairly quickly. But remained reactive to the banging despite training and practicing.
A year or so later he started to have performance issues and investigations showed right hock arthritis,.SI pain and compensatory hot spots in the shoulders and neck.
Now he's been treated and isn't in pain , the banging isn't a problem any more.

 

[Caol Ila]

I am not sure that the horse went through the most textbook barefoot rehab when they initially pulled the shoes. Only advice owner had was very unexpert, from me, because no one else around had been through the transition. I guess the farrier could/should have offered (it was his head getting kicked in, after all) but he won't tell you what to do unless you ask him, and I don't think she did. And obviously at a livery yard, they are turned out where they are turned out. Which in our case is a grassy, boggy field. You can't do the Rockley Farm thing with different surfaces in their paddocks or fields.

We have roads around the yard, but no soft trails. They are all rocky. Horse was very footy to start with, even on the tarmac, and it took a few weeks to get the boots due to supply issues. I suggested walking on the roads anyway, in-hand if he felt too uncomfortable to ride, but I'm not sure how much or little she did.

It's hard, because his owner works normal hours, so she can only hack on weekends during the winter and then she likes long, fast hacks on the stony tracks. When I transitioned, I was able to be at the barn during daylight and walk my horse on the roads four or five times per week (my horse was also perfectly accepting of Scoot boots, so I could ride over rockier trails whenever I wanted). Does that sort of thing make a difference?

Interesting re: pain. I do wonder. Don't think anyone has thought that his reaction to the banging of a farrier's hammer or the pressure of the boot around the hoof might be a pain response. When the horse is cheery and forward to ride, you just don't think of it.

 

[Sossigpoker]

I am not sure that the horse went through the most textbook barefoot rehab when they initially pulled the shoes. Only advice owner had was very unexpert, from me, because no one else around had been through the transition. I guess the farrier could/should have offered (it was his head getting kicked in, after all) but he won't tell you what to do unless you ask him, and I don't think she did. And obviously at a livery yard, they are turned out where they are turned out. You can't do the Rockley Farm thing with different surfaces in their paddocks or fields.

We have roads around the yard, but no soft trails. They are all rocky. Horse was very footy to start with, even on the tarmac, and it took a few weeks to get the boots due to supply issues. I suggested walking on the roads anyway, in-hand if he felt too uncomfortable to ride, but I'm not sure how much or little she did.

It's hard, because his owner works normal hours, so she can only hack on weekends during the winter and then she likes long, fast hacks on the stony tracks. When I transitioned, I was able to be at the barn during daylight and walk my horse on the roads four or five times per week (my horse was also perfectly accepting of Scoot boots, so I could ride over rockier trails whenever I wanted). Does that sort of thing make a difference?

Interesting re: pain. I do wonder. Don't think anyone has thought that the banging of a farrier's hammer or the pressure of the boot around the hoof might be a pain response. When the horse is cheery and forward to ride, you just don't think of it.

Mine was a forward and happy to ride for about a year before the performance issues - subtle at first- started to creep up. He also passed a vetting with my own Vera experienced performance vet so there definitely weren't any indications of pain to start with.
The fact that mine settled and got used to the smoke and fire but not the banging should have really told me that there's something going on but unless there horse is lame or shows pain otherwise, it's difficult to know where to start looking.

I would certainly do some foot and lower limb x-rays with yours as a starting point.
The horse is having an extreme reaction and there must be a reason for it- especially if he's otherwise good to ride and generally compliant.

 

[SEL]

If I had a horse like this ,.that was so reactive to the banging ,.I'd treat it as a pain issue and investigate with the vet .
Mine used to be pretty difficult to shoe to start with - he was terrified of the smoke but got used to it fairly quickly. But remained reactive to the banging despite training and practicing.
A year or so later he started to have performance issues and investigations showed right hock arthritis,.SI pain and compensatory hot spots in the shoulders and neck.
Now he's been treated and isn't in pain , the banging isn't a problem any more.

We stuff the microcob up against the barn wall and hold a bucket of pony nuts in front of her for shoeing her right hind. She only reacted to the banging with one leg so we didn't think it was just the noise - she has a pelvic problem.

Now she can lean on the wall and be distracted by food the farrier can get her done much quicker.

 

[poiuytrewq]

Try contacting Michael Peace. A friend had him out to help with a horse who needed sedating to be shod. I was very skeptical, but results were incredible and the horse never needed sedating again - even the farrier was impressed and had never seen anything like it. He’s not cheap, but cheaper long term than sedating.

I was present when Micheal Peace came to work with a mare I knew who was horrific to shoe or trim. The progress he made in an hour or two was incredible. I was really impressed.
I have no doubt at all if the owners had done as he asked she would have been completely sorted out. Sadly they didn’t do any of their side of things so it failed.

 

[ester]

It would be interesting to block the hoof and then see (but aware that comes with extra issues given what you’ve said!).
I’d def try some alternate boots I think

 

[Gloi]

It's a complicated situation. The horse in question had his front shoes taken off (for this reason) maybe six-ish months ago, but he can be a wee bit footy. For reasons no one quite understands, he will try to take your face off with his front feet when you try to put on hoof boots.

If he'll let you pick the feet up to give them a good clean and then hold them for a couple of minutes try Hoof Armour.
I used it all last summer and after a couple of applications he didn't need his boots.
I didn't use it through the winter as I couldn't get the feet clean and dry enough but he's just had his first coat for this year and all good.