Sign saying "no horses without permission"

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MagicMelon

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I'm in Scotland so horse riders and walkers etc. can go anywhere we want - there's no such thing as private land up here. I know this differs from England ;)

Ive just moved to a new house and out walking yesterday spotted a sign (put there by the local estate) which said "no horses without permission" at the bottom of the track leading to the wind farm. Now, this wind farm covers a huge area and offers loads of off-road tracks, ideal for hacking when I bring my horses here eventually.

Does anyone know if legally this sign is allowed? I believe I have a right to ride on these tracks so do I really have to seek permission? I dont want to upset anyone obviously, but what happens if they do say no (quite possible from what Ive heard...)? I assume wind farms aren't under some sort of special law?!
 
If your open access is anything like Right to Roam, there are exceptions. If that IS the case, then I would simply find the landowner and ask permission. Good ways to break the ice are bottles of wine, homemade cake and a good pout, he he!

It's quite possible that the owner has simply had people take the pee, so check out the legality and go from there. If he/she is initially dismissive, try the slightly more pushy route of a 'trial access' period. Obviously if it IS open access, then it's an issue for your local council.
 
I suspect that it isn't legal, Private land not in crop?? designated roads/routes to the turbines arent going to be damaged by horses, However could it have something to do with how they feel they might be responsible ( good old claim culture) if your horse spooked at the turbines/associated traffic etc etc, you fell off and sued them?? thereby they are covering themselves? Id speak to your local access officer and see what they say, if you also go on the planning website, you will find out who has permission for the turbines and speak to them re access, Id go to the wind company directly rather than the landowner!
 
Fransurrey said:
If your open access is anything like Right to Roam, there are exceptions. If that IS the case, then I would simply find the landowner and ask permission. Good ways to break the ice are bottles of wine, homemade cake and a good pout, he he!

It's quite possible that the owner has simply had people take the pee, so check out the legality and go from there. If he/she is initially dismissive, try the slightly more pushy route of a 'trial access' period. Obviously if it IS open access, then it's an issue for your local council.
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It isnt the same as right to roam which only applies to open/moorland. In Scotland horses have the right of responsible access to all accessible tracks incl private ones, plus fields etc. There are some exceptions eg crops growing (incl grass hay fields above ankle height), curtilages of private houses, and temporary diversion etc might be put in place if damage is bad to surface, but apart from that it is pretty much the same rights as walkers.

MagicMelon unless the sign is related to a specific part of a track where construction is actively underway (and hence safety related), which is doesnt sound like it is esp as they are suggesting you can access but only with permission.

You dont need permission to exercise your legal right! So I would certainly not be asking for permission.

Locally a walking group took over path management from the estate and then stuck up no horses notices in all the woods! While most horse riders just ripped the signs down, I had a lot of correspondence and discussion with the estate reminding them of their ultimate responsibility for obeying the law! and in the end the estate factor told the walkers group to back off and that the estate would be the only ones dealing with access and the signs were removed and have stayed so :-))

I would contact the estate factor and tell them 'someone' has put up a notice in their name and they might want to be aware and ask who would have put it up. If they say they put it up I would remind them that it would be a breach of the law in Scotland and that of course horseriders will not be seeking permission. NB I am assuming this track doesnt go through someones garden etc.

One quibble with your post - there certainly IS such a thing as private land in Scotland - what there hasnt been historically is an offence of trespass. But private land is still private - even if access is allowed. Just wanted to clarify!

Edited to add the BHS publication on horses and windfarms specifically states that
Under the Land Reform (Scotland) Act 2003, riders and carriage drivers
have a right of responsible access. This includes access into wind farm
areas.
 
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It my be that the windfarm is subject to some kind of local authority byelaw that restricts access, for example on safety grounds, which will, under the Scottish Outdoor Access Code, affect your "right to Room" . I know of one windfarm which only has designated bridal ways, that are generally away from where large machinery and things are likely to be used.

Also I used to livery next to a land that was used as a wildlife country park and had loads of paths and things to ride along. This was subject to local byelaw where riders had to gain a membership to ride in the country park land, it was free but mainly to rensure you did not try gain access to some of the animal enclosures.

I would try find out the land owner details,is there a vister centre on this one or a site office you could nip into.
 
If you contact Helene Mauchlen she's done a lot of work with the Whitelees wind farm people near East Kilbride where horse are positively welcomed. I also ride in the wind farm near me. Might also be worth contacting your local BHS Access Group, there's a list of them online here http://www.bhsscotland.org.uk/riders-access-groups.html

Depending on the company who own the land they may well try to exclude you but they aren't allowed to once construction has finished and the turbines are signed off as complete.

Helene Mauchlen
Development Officer for Scotland
Woodburn Farm
Crieff PH7 3RG
Tel: 01764 656334
Mob: 07808 141077
Email: h.mauchlen@bhs.org.uk
 
MagicMelon said:
I'm in Scotland so horse riders and walkers etc. can go anywhere we want - there's no such thing as private land up here. I know this differs from England ;)
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i live in Scotland as well but where i live it's completely different! i live in the middle of the countryside but there is absolutely no hacking at all, all the land is private and to do any proper hacking we have to travel to country parks or estates and ask permission to use and sometimes pay!
it depends who the council are and who actually owns the land. you may need permission due to insurance reasons, again i can't hack anywhere without showing proof of insurance.
they probably just don't want to liable if you or your horse hurt yourselves or anyone else :)
 
CaitlinCal said:
i live in Scotland as well but where i live it's completely different! i live in the middle of the countryside but there is absolutely no hacking at all, all the land is private and to do any proper hacking we have to travel to country parks or estates and ask permission to use and sometimes pay!
it depends who the council are and who actually owns the land. you may need permission due to insurance reasons, again i can't hack anywhere without showing proof of insurance.
they probably just don't want to liable if you or your horse hurt yourselves or anyone else :)
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thats not legal though caitlin!

MM I was going to suggest contacting BHS Scotland too
 
Thanks everyone, really useful. I think I'll give the estate a call just so that I dont fall out with them straight away! If they argue at all then I'll inform them of my rights. The wind farm is complete, has been for some years now and there's no signs of more being built (I keep an eye on planning applications also). Very few walkers etc. use the tracks simply because of its location and because we have so many of these horrid wind farms up here! I think the estate probably were forced by the council (or energy company) to try to make them walker friendly so people dont object! I know by choice the estate wouldn't want anyone on their land... hence why Im a little cautious about this.

Lachlanmarcus - Sorry, I think of private land simply as in land we're not allowed on. Surely ALL land is private unless its council owned?
 
MagicMelon said:
I'm in Scotland so horse riders and walkers etc. can go anywhere we want - there's no such thing as private land up here. I know this differs from England ;)

Ive just moved to a new house and out walking yesterday spotted a sign (put there by the local estate) which said "no horses without permission" at the bottom of the track leading to the wind farm. Now, this wind farm covers a huge area and offers loads of off-road tracks, ideal for hacking when I bring my horses here eventually.

Does anyone know if legally this sign is allowed? I believe I have a right to ride on these tracks so do I really have to seek permission? I dont want to upset anyone obviously, but what happens if they do say no (quite possible from what Ive heard...)? I assume wind farms aren't under some sort of special law?!
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Are the tracks designated as bridleways? (Ask the local Bridleways Association) If they are, in English law (and Scots law may be different) this sign would have no force in law. If the land is privately owned and the paths are not bridleways then probably, even in Scotland, the owners can put up whatever notices they like and enforce them as long as they are not actually breaking any statute (eg a sign saying "Trespassers Will Be Shot" might be considered unreasonable if not down-right illegal ;) )

However, from the other side, it may be that the landowners or operators of the wind turbines are covering their backs and trying to avoid any claims for damages incurred if the turbines caused a horse to shy and a rider was injured. Whether they would get away with it is a moot point.

If you are a gold BHS member their legal specialists will be able to give useful advice on this.

EDIT: Sorry, hadn't seen Lachlan andmarcus's reply when I wrote this and therefore some of what I wrote is wrong
 
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I so know how u feel. I too live in scotland, have been here 7 years and for 4 of them happily rode down thru the estate close to our house with the ok of the landowner. It's the only glen and woods around here and was once actually a cross country course (wail!!). Suddenly the guy who owns it banned all riders but will allow EVERYBODY else to go there. I am so upset as we moved here specifically so we could go offroad in the 3000 acre estate. The owner has spun a different reason to all who have asked why. He told me it was an insurance problem which is rubbish as we are all insured up to the hilt. It is probably more to do with his being dobbed in to spca for horrendous animal husbandry. I have now left it for nearly 18 months but not sure what to do next. I dare not go against him as we are so closeby. Even the fact that one of his workers(they farm some of the estate) drove a tractor into my horse then drove off making us both terrified for the last three years won't persuade him to let me safely go off road. The tracks are ALL fenced off so there is no chance of interfering with his stock. Am I being unreasonable thinking we should be allowed? This guy actually was bullying young women if he caught them trying to go there, telling them to f off back to where they came from. They are quite scary people who own it. What to do? Btw told the council but nothing happening after a year!! :-(
 
oldhat said:
I so know how u feel. I too live in scotland, have been here 7 years and for 4 of them happily rode down thru the estate close to our house with the ok of the landowner. It's the only glen and woods around here and was once actually a cross country course (wail!!). Suddenly the guy who owns it banned all riders but will allow EVERYBODY else to go there. I am so upset as we moved here specifically so we could go offroad in the 3000 acre estate. The owner has spun a different reason to all who have asked why. He told me it was an insurance problem which is rubbish as we are all insured up to the hilt. It is probably more to do with his being dobbed in to spca for horrendous animal husbandry. I have now left it for nearly 18 months but not sure what to do next. I dare not go against him as we are so closeby. Even the fact that one of his workers(they farm some of the estate) drove a tractor into my horse then drove off making us both terrified for the last three years won't persuade him to let me safely go off road. The tracks are ALL fenced off so there is no chance of interfering with his stock. Am I being unreasonable thinking we should be allowed? This guy actually was bullying young women if he caught them trying to go there, telling them to f off back to where they came from. They are quite scary people who own it. What to do? Btw told the council but nothing happening after a year!! :-(
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Unless the track goes past his front window, he is breaking the law. Full stop. And if you have any issues with people or (worse) people with vehicles threatening you, call the police.

The insurance is a red herring since while Im sure we are all sensible enough to have liability insurance it is NOT a legal requirement and is NOT a reason he can lawfully deny you access

I do think that where there are lots of tracks available it is courteous to stick to them rrather than risking trashing landowners fields (even if you can ride them by law), but beyond that, the law is the law and he is breaking it.

I would enlist the support of your local BHS access officer, local council access officer and have the polices non emergency number of speed dial and get out there and ride your horse :-))

NB I say this as a landowner as well as a horseowner so Im not just gaily telling people to ride on other peoples land - I get people riding their horses on our tracks. :-)
 
The act says that they can only refuse riding on land if they have a permit system in place, in which case you buy a permit. If you ask permission to ride on the land and there is not a permit system in place then the landowner cannot refuse but can put down conditions such as areas that they do not want you to enter and times of year when they do not want you on the land.
i have always asked permission of land owner pre and post right to roam act, as it is just polite and it keeps the landowners happy.

stops me getting shouted at by gamekeepers aswell!!!!
 
Id call the estate and ask to speak to the manager, my husband is involved in the wind farms, they dont mind the riders, but for health and safety reasons they sometimes need to curtail where the riders go, im pretty sure they'll come to some sort of arrangement that'll suit both of you if you ask
 
Iachlanandmarcus- many thanks for the reply, yes I tried to get a group of us to go down there-safety in numbers-but they are all too scared! He doesn't have a house there, we simply ride thru a farmyard, then past a very old disused lodge and then onto fenced off tracks. I have spent the last months trying to not get upset about this but it's right near my house, the council never let me know what happened tho I had left it for six months since I asked them to investigate and they still hadn't got round to doing anything. Surprising really as previously they've been so helpful. I did ring the local bhs access lady but she said she lived too far away to be any help! The estate land was bought by these dodgy irish lads who have now become bigheaded ****s!! I will not give up tho! Worst part is he told me to my face that anyone else is fine- walkers, cyclists, even quadbikers who are the worse for leaving gates wide open! Just talking about it sends me into a demented rage!!! All other routes have also had or going to have humungous guess what-turbines put on them! I sound like a right miserable cow! Sorry for that! Despite all this, I still get out on my two horses, even my poor scared lass-what a trooper she is!! Ah well, perhaps it is time to have a word face to face again. What's the worst they can do... :-)
 
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