*silly question alert* regarding Dun horses.

ClobellsandBaubles said:
I love the dun/buckskin debate hehe.
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As the owner of two buckskins (one very golden and one a pale buttermilk sort of shade) and two buckskin tobianos I am forever hoping for the day when people know the difference. It does annoy me that all have to be registered as 'dun' with vets/insurance companies etc. Even though it is a colloquial term and IMO used more for palomino/whites, I actually refer to the buckskin coloureds as 'lemon and white' as I find it less annoying than having to register them as 'dun and white'.

The two buckskins' passports list them as dun and the coloureds are down as lemon and white (none filled in by myself). I think someone has mentioned it on here before (possibly Faracat) but I do believe that listing their true colour/genetic results on the passport, would be a step in the right direction. I suppose it'll never come to pass due to money etc.
 
Oh 'lemon and white' is a horrible term. :( Please don't get me started on the ridiculous inaccuracy that is seen on some passports... If it's someone's job to fill in an official document, they really should know about the subject and their entries should be accurate - it's an identification document after all! No, 'tri coloured' isn't accurate, nor is 'chocolate palomino' and seal brown is not the same as black or bay. *Grrr, grumble, grumble*
 
You learn something new every day on HHO.[/QUOTE]

You certainly do! I'm abit baffled by it all if I'm totally honest! (Doesn't take much to confuse me these days) ;p
 
Faracat said:
Oh 'lemon and white' is a horrible term. :( Please don't get me started on the ridiculous inaccuracy that is seen on some passports... If it's someone's job to fill in an official document, they really should know about the subject and their entries should be accurate - it's an identification document after all! No, 'tri coloured' isn't accurate, nor is 'chocolate palomino' and seal brown is not the same as black or bay. *Grrr, grumble, grumble*
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Even though I am extremely anal about colours, I find it easier to say lemon and white to people who don't know, than constantly having to call them dun. Urgh! Now when people actually ask me to elaborate, they get the whole lecture. ;) On a similar subject, I personally hate the term 'blue and white' when referring to coloureds. That's a little grumble of mine, right there.

My Appy cross is actually passported as a 'red near leopard' as that's what the breeder thought he was. He has now varnished out and is a 'full' leopard and it's clear he's bay, rather than chestnut.
 
SatsumaGirl said:
As the owner of two buckskins (one very golden and one a pale buttermilk sort of shade) and two buckskin tobianos I am forever hoping for the day when people know the difference. It does annoy me that all have to be registered as 'dun' with vets/insurance companies etc. Even though it is a colloquial term and IMO used more for palomino/whites, I actually refer to the buckskin coloureds as 'lemon and white' as I find it less annoying than having to register them as 'dun and white'.

The two buckskins' passports list them as dun and the coloureds are down as lemon and white (none filled in by myself). I think someone has mentioned it on here before (possibly Faracat) but I do believe that listing their true colour/genetic results on the passport, would be a step in the right direction. I suppose it'll never come to pass due to money etc.
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My very dark buckskin, below next to the bay, (she's a seal brown with the cream gene) has to be registered under her insurance as chocolate dun. Very annoying.

TaylahandCJ1_zps6cf215ed.jpg
 
I hate 'blue and white' too. ;) I understand why you say lemon and white, but it still grates as it's not accurate. Thank god I don't own anything more complicated than grey and that was frustrating enough when people insisted that she was strawberry roan when I told them she was grey. I just waited for the penny to drop for them as she greyed out. :p
 
Faracat said:
You can get buckskins with countershading that gives dorsal stripes.

http://www.whitehorseproductions.com/ecg_basics2.html

OP, have a look at this site.
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Fascinating I was hoping to see some Highland Ponies and not disappointed - I love what we call a mouse dun.

Also thrilled to see the superb pure bred Cleveland Bay Ramblers Renown. A friend tells me that years ago Ramblers had a waiting list for their foals before they were born.
 
Faracat said:
I hate 'blue and white' too. ;) I understand why you say lemon and white, but it still grates as it's not accurate. Thank god I don't own anything more complicated than grey and that was frustrating enough when people insisted that she was strawberry roan when I told them she was grey. I just waited for the penny to drop for them as she greyed out. :p
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My two Shagya mares are registered as Bay Roan in the Hungarian stud book but grey in France. They are grey but they do have a lot of brown spots on legs and hocks.
 
That's so odd that different stud books have them down as different colours!

I like Ramblers Renown too - he was a handsome boy. :)
 
Well I'm old and like to call all yellowish things with dark points dun, so shoot me. Buckskin is a nasty americanisation. I know that they are different genetically, but it only really matters if you are trying to breed for colour anyway, surely?
 
No. :D :p



Long version - OK, Bay Dun and Buckskin look similar, but the English term got the much better deal, it got a whole gene (well allele) named after it, the american term only got one particular form of Cream (black + agouti + cream).

I don't think that accuracy is ever wrong when you are identifying something eg the colour stated on the passport, even if the horse in question is a gelding. Come on, embrace new knowledge. :)
 
Faracat said:
That's so odd that different stud books have them down as different colours!

I like Ramblers Renown too - he was a handsome boy. :)
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My Highland Pony is a rare Cream Dun in the mother stud book, but described on French D/base as grey truite...trout like markings. France does not recognise Dun colours so I was told. Bizarre.
 
Following with interest because my boy is a highland and I always thought he is yellow dun, but can't find any reference to yellow as a variant in any of the links I've read so far. So maybe he's actually a bay dun??!! He looks exactly like a hose described as such in one of the links.

He's a rich biscuit colour, no dapples or variations in his coat, full dorsal stripe, zebra stripes on forelegs and inside hocks which are becoming ore obvious as he sheds his winter fluff, dark from the knee/hock down, black mane and tail with lighter "weathering" on the topside of his mane and no white on him anywhere. Both parents have identical colouring, but both grand sires were "grey" .... ?

Yellow, bay ....? .... Whatever ... I think he's scrumptious and that's all that matters.
 
Cortez said:
Oh, alright then.............(still hate the american term: we don't have "bucks".........)
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So really it's the American sounding name that you object to? What if we call a standard buckskin a cream bay, or bay cream, or smoky bay? That would be genetically correct and not sound American.
 
Greylegs said:
Following with interest because my boy is a highland and I always thought he is yellow dun, but can't find any reference to yellow as a variant in any of the links I've read so far. So maybe he's actually a bay dun??!! He looks exactly like a hose described as such in one of the links.

He's a rich biscuit colour, no dapples or variations in his coat, full dorsal stripe, zebra stripes on forelegs and inside hocks which are becoming ore obvious as he sheds his winter fluff, dark from the knee/hock down, black mane and tail with lighter "weathering" on the topside of his mane and no white on him anywhere. Both parents have identical colouring, but both grand sires were "grey" .... ?

Yellow, bay ....? .... Whatever ... I think he's scrumptious and that's all that matters.
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From your description Bay Dun (Black + agouti + dun) sounds right.

RE grey, even if a horse has only one copy of grey, they grey out. So the grey grandparents can't have passed grey onto your boy's sire and dam. :)
 
Cortez said:
Well I'm old and like to call all yellowish things with dark points dun, so shoot me. Buckskin is a nasty americanisation. I know that they are different genetically, but it only really matters if you are trying to breed for colour anyway, surely?
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Nothing to do with age, I'm young and I'm with you here Cortez :) Americanisms. Sorrel gets me as well. Maybe I'm just a grumpy wotsit. I have an evolutionary biology degree with a strong genetic component but still think people fuss a lot about this. I find the genetics interesting and have looked into the genotype of mine but personally I call the phenotype whatever common term most people will understand. Unless you're breeding does it matter? Looks dun to me....
 
So what about my boy? He is a rich golden biscuit colour in summer, much more bay colour in winter with a grey brown clipped coat. faint dorsal stripe very black mane, tail and legs. Very 'yellow' face with mix of black, grey and yellow hairs. Passport says bay. I know he is not dun but would he be a buckskin or some sort of bay - yellow bay, bright bay?
 
Jericho said:
So what about my boy? He is a rich golden biscuit colour in summer, much more bay colour in winter with a grey brown clipped coat. faint dorsal stripe very black mane, tail and legs. Very 'yellow' face with mix of black, grey and yellow hairs. Passport says bay. I know he is not dun but would he be a buckskin or some sort of bay - yellow bay, bright bay?
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Do you have a picture? From your description he sounds like a bay to me. But could be a dark buckskin. Would need to see pictures. If he's a buckskin, he would not have any red tinge to his coat at any time of year like bay does.
 
Bear9 said:
Nothing to do with age, I'm young and I'm with you here Cortez :) Americanisms. Sorrel gets me as well. Maybe I'm just a grumpy wotsit. I have an evolutionary biology degree with a strong genetic component but still think people fuss a lot about this. I find the genetics interesting and have looked into the genotype of mine but personally I call the phenotype whatever common term most people will understand. Unless you're breeding does it matter? Looks dun to me....
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But as far as I'm aware, sorrel and chestnut are the same genetically- though I've found some people do debate which one is which, based on the shade of the coat- though IME, it is the same colour and yes, sorrel is more of an Americanism, compared to here where we just call it chestnut.

The thing with buckskin vs dun and chestnut vs sorrel is that in the case of chestnut/sorrel, it is essentially the same and just a difference in language (similar to sidewalk and pavement or bathroom and toilet). Dun and buckskin are completely different and it has been proven. Cream is not dun and dun is not cream. There is a world of difference between the two. Buckskin is not an Americanism (well, I mean it is in that the term originated there, as far as I'm aware) but it is not their equivalent term for what we call dun over here. The majority of us in the UK are actually the ones in the wrong. I remember having a book when I was little that actually stated that 'dun' was the UK term for buckskin and as many seem to believe, buckskin was simply the Americanised term.

If you (and I don't mean you personally, Bear9; I mean 'you' in general as in 'one') are going to state that dun and buckskin are the same thing, compare a buckskin to dun on a red or black basecoat and tell me it's the same colour. ;)
 
SatsumaGirl said:
But as far as I'm aware, sorrel and chestnut are the same genetically- though I've found some people do debate which one is which, based on the shade of the coat- though IME, it is the same colour and yes, sorrel is more of an Americanism, compared to here where we just call it chestnut.

The thing with buckskin vs dun and chestnut vs sorrel is that in the case of chestnut/sorrel, it is essentially the same and just a difference in language (similar to sidewalk and pavement or bathroom and toilet). Dun and buckskin are completely different and it has been proven. Cream is not dun and dun is not cream. There is a world of difference between the two. Buckskin is not an Americanism (well, I mean it is in that the term originated there, as far as I'm aware) but it is not their equivalent term for what we call dun over here. The majority of us in the UK are actually the ones in the wrong. I remember having a book when I was little that actually stated that 'dun' was the UK term for buckskin and as many seem to believe, buckskin was simply the Americanised term.

If you (and I don't mean you personally, Bear9; I mean 'you' in general as in 'one') are going to state that dun and buckskin are the same thing, compare a buckskin to dun on a red or black basecoat and tell me it's the same colour. ;)
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Well put. Americans use the word 'dun' correctly. We don't, in the majority of cases as we lump duns and buckskin both as dun.
 
It's quite sad that people refuse to use the correct term because they quite simply are being snobby about buckskin sounding american. :(

As stated, Buckskin and Dun are NOT the same thing and the phenotype IS different, hence why you can tell the difference by looking at them. OK, some buckskins with countershading might need more careful study to differentiate them from a bay Dun, but it's still perfectly possible.
 
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