Skinny horse & still losing weight

[Michelle c]

Just bear in mind that if the horse isn't lacking in magnesium it wont help and can make them worst.


I have to ride my boy back on magic as a 4 month trial on magnesium made him worst. Spooky sharp a right **** on hacks.

Breaking my heart knowing I will never ride my mare (his mum) again who Whenever need calming.

Thats it. Not being able to ride is driving me mad & my health is suffering to with wory lack of sleep etc. The stress release from riding is worth its weight in gold. Just want my old fun loving horse back. Not this skinny sad thing i see twice a day. Cant even take her out in hand as i make her to tired.

 

[A Musing]

Thats it. Not being able to ride is driving me mad & my health is suffering to with wory lack of sleep etc. The stress release from riding is worth its weight in gold. Just want my old fun loving horse back. Not this skinny sad thing i see twice a day. Cant even take her out in hand as i make her to tired.

I didn't want to read and run. I don't have anything sensible to offer but just wanted to say sorry and well done for working through things to help your horse. I've got an undiagnosed horse atm and it is such a worry. Vet's advice, but check and check again if you are unsure or have questions. I do think we know them better on a day to day basis so keep pushing to get the right treatment/diagnosis. Best of luck.

 

[RutlandH2O]

Hi Michelle, A couple of things have crossed my mind reading this thread. Is your mare rugged? When she's inside and while she's out? A thin horse will feel the cold more acutely. Also, have you discussed ulcers with your vet? If your mare had/has been bullied that could be a contributing factor to the development of ulcers. A referral to Leahurst really is in order. Good luck and let us know how she progresses.

 

[Michelle c]

I didn't want to read and run. I don't have anything sensible to offer but just wanted to say sorry and well done for working through things to help your horse. I've got an undiagnosed horse atm and it is such a worry. Vet's advice, but check and check again if you are unsure or have questions. I do think we know them better on a day to day basis so keep pushing to get the right treatment/diagnosis. Best of luck.

Thank you. I think you owe them that much. At 21 years old she isnt that old for an arab. Hope you horse gets better soon. My heart goes out to you.

 

[Michelle c]

Hi Michelle, A couple of things have crossed my mind reading this thread. Is your mare rugged? When she's inside and while she's out? A thin horse will feel the cold more acutely. Also, have you discussed ulcers with your vet? If your mare had/has been bullied that could be a contributing factor to the development of ulcers. A referral to Leahurst really is in order. Good luck and let us know how she progresses.

She is double rugged with a neck cover for both inside & out. The vet said she doesnt have any symptons of ulcers as i thought that too. I think the fight was only because there wasnt much grass in that field & changed fields after the kick. I think you are right about the leahurst thing though. I will keep you posted.

 

[Pasha]

I think your vet is very sensible giving pergolide/prascend a try and yes, 4 weeks is a good trial period - my 16yr old Arab lost a lot of weight in the past few weeks and tested positive for Cushings and Liver Disease with Low White Blood Cells It is so horrible to see them skinny and lethargic despite you feeding them them the best you can!

My boy has had Lami in the past so I was feeding him a Lami diet, however, when they are skinny as others have said, you have to increase the calories! I spoke to Dr Teresa Hollands at Dodsen & Horrell and she worked out the exact quantities of feed for my boy so that he is now getting the right type of protein and vitamins that he needs NOW... when he has picked up weight wise we can revisit and adjust, but the main priority at the moment is getting enough in him that his body can cope with.

I would 100% recommend that you give Dodsen & Horrell a call.

The fact that your horse is drinking and weeing more, coupled with her losing weight and lethargy is very suggestive of Cushings, despite what the bloods say.

My boy has also been prescribed pergolide/prascend and is being retested in 4 weeks - he is 2 weeks in to his new Dodsen and Horrell diet with the pergolide/prascend and I think he is perking up a bit! My vet wanted me to keep him in light work, although I have given him 2 weeks off as he was soo lethargic under saddle... but i took him for a 30 min stroll around the woods on Saturday and he cantered up the road when a dog barked at him, so I think he is starting to feel better

I really hope you get to the bottom of this xxx

 

[Michelle c]

I think your vet is very sensible giving pergolide/prascend a try and yes, 4 weeks is a good trial period - my 16yr old Arab lost a lot of weight in the past few weeks and tested positive for Cushings and Liver Disease with Low White Blood Cells It is so horrible to see them skinny and lethargic despite you feeding them them the best you can!

My boy has had Lami in the past so I was feeding him a Lami diet, however, when they are skinny as others have said, you have to increase the calories! I spoke to Dr Teresa Hollands at Dodsen & Horrell and she worked out the exact quantities of feed for my boy so that he is now getting the right type of protein and vitamins that he needs NOW... when he has picked up weight wise we can revisit and adjust, but the main priority at the moment is getting enough in him that his body can cope with.

I would 100% recommend that you give Dodsen & Horrell a call.

The fact that your horse is drinking and weeing more, coupled with her losing weight and lethargy is very suggestive of Cushings, despite what the bloods say.

My boy has also been prescribed pergolide/prascend and is being retested in 4 weeks - he is 2 weeks in to his new Dodsen and Horrell diet with the pergolide/prascend and I think he is perking up a bit! My vet wanted me to keep him in light work, although I have given him 2 weeks off as he was soo lethargic under saddle... but i took him for a 30 min stroll around the woods on Saturday and he cantered up the road when a dog barked at him, so I think he is starting to feel better

I really hope you get to the bottom of this xxx

Thats really good news. It is nice to hear from someone who is going thro what i am. What have you been told to give your horse? How much tablets are you giving him. I am only on half a tablet as she is negative & have been taking them for just over a week & nothing so far

 

[Queenbee]

Hi Michelle, just going to put a few of my thoughts and suggestions on here for the mo as I'm going out in a bit... I really feel for you and what you are going through.

Firstly, do what Amymay suggests and put her on a bute trial... Don't go for the sachets as these may put her off her food, ask for they syringe dose.

Get a good blood tonic down her with plenty of b vitamins to boost her system... I used haemavite b + it's about 17 go for the full dose (the entire cup once a day) it really picks them up

Do not feed off the ground, feed in elevated mangers if your horse is having problems that are pain related due to this injury it will be painful to eat from the ground, when my vet came out to do bens teeth he was telling his student how if a Horse is injected in the neck and gets an abscess there it is the most awful thing and can cause death by starvation due to the pain, he has seen this happen as the horse won't/ can't put its head down.

For feed, get some copra meal, it is made from coconut and is dense in high oil calories, and the lysine levels mean that anything the horse doesn't need is excreted out... I could explain this better but have a look at boomerang copra website, it outlines its suitability for laminitics. Feed lots, four meals a day. And as much oil as you can. Get some fast fibre and feed lots of this soaked at night as an easy to digest forage replacer.

Ask your vets to confer with someone like Liverpool vets... Send everything up to them and go from there.

Contact horsehage/ mollichaff, they have an excellent independent nutritionalist that they can put you in touch with to work out a diet

If you have not already, get a weight tape and measure daily, also take pictures, keep a diary and note down any changes.

Ask to be referred for X-rays... It may show up the route cause, or it may show that it is not related to her skeletal system, in which case it is a case of a process of elimination, the problem is you need to go step by step, rule out that it is pain related or to do with these problems the chiro found first.

What cushiness test did you have? The suppression? Or both, if you had both and they are negative, then I would think the chances of cushings are not high, I personally would be putting this to the side for now, I would be interested to know why your vet is convinced enough that it is cushings to be setting your horse on a course of treatment.

There is so much more that I can add, but I really must dash! It may not be something that you can deal with, but there is a thread of mine called 'can I cry pls' it didn't end well for my mare, but the ideas and suggestions on there are really good.

If it was me... Priorities would be, getting on a blood tonic (you can order online or through vets) upping calorific intake in a significant way at the moment, and contacting the nutritionalist and getting some copra. also calling vets pronto, get on bute and get them to arrange x rays and to contact one of the specialist horsepitals to consult with their vets.

As I said, I will be a bit more thorough when I next post/pm, but for me, that would be my next step, I understand you are wary because of lami, but you need to focus on calories so you can keep her going whilst you find the cause.

Edited to say, yes I completely agree with wagtail, no more than 1-2 hrs turn out at the moment, she will not be bothering to eat in this weather, and will be losing lots of calories she can't afford to lose. Get her in and warm and up her hay intake, you need to be monitoring what she is eating as much as possible.

Out of interest what is her condition score/weight, do you have any pics... Would be good to get an idea of just how much weight we are talking about.

 

[ILuvCowparsely]

Thats it. Not being able to ride is driving me mad & my health is suffering to with wory lack of sleep etc. The stress release from riding is worth its weight in gold. Just want my old fun loving horse back. Not this skinny sad thing i see twice a day. Cant even take her out in hand as i make her to tired.

meant to read Breaking my heart knowing I will never ride my mare (his mum) again who Never need calming and was fantastic ride.(she is to go over the rainbow)

Her son is sharp and spooky and magic calmer is the only one that works for us

 

[Wagtail]

Magic calmer is mainly magnesium.

 

[Pasha]

My boy is on 1mg per day as he is a positive ACTH at 60 (should be below 29 at this time of year).

Do you know what her ACTH was?

Did your vet run full bloods including GGT and AST? Do you know what these were?

 

[AmyMay]

What wonderfull advice from queenbee.

 

[Michelle c]

My boy is on 1mg per day as he is a positive ACTH at 60 (should be below 29 at this time of year).

Do you know what her ACTH was?

Did your vet run full bloods including GGT and AST? Do you know what these were?

Im not sure as she said she was high negative. She did two loads of blood tests now.

 

[Queenbee]

Im not sure as she said she was high negative. She did two loads of blood tests now.

If they did the suppression test which checks for cortisol levels a raised cortisol level can indicate cushings BUT it is also a pain response... If a horse is in pain the cortisol naturally raises in level.

I think what you need to do for your own peace of mind is ask for a print out for the results that have been done on your mare... It is important that you know as much as possible about what is going on with your mare and what has been tested for and what the actual results are, that way you are fully informed and in the best place to help your mare.

 

[Michelle c]

If they did the suppression test which checks for cortisol levels a raised cortisol level can indicate cushings BUT it is also a pain response... If a horse is in pain the cortisol naturally raises in level.

I think what you need to do for your own peace of mind is ask for a print out for the results that have been done on your mare... It is important that you know as much as possible about what is going on with your mare and what has been tested for and what the actual results are, that way you are fully informed and in the best place to help your mare.

I will get that from them. Pretty distressing today as she nipped at my arm for no reason. First time she has bitten me in the 18 years i have had her. She is a totally different horse to the one i have had for so long.

 

[smellsofhorse]

Give her a conditioning feed.
Something like pure condition from pure feeds.

 

[Michelle c]

Give her a conditioning feed.
Something like pure condition from pure feeds.

Going to speak to my vet today to see if im ok giving her a different feed or if she wants me to wait til after the cushings test. As i mentioned before, i dont think its just a case of losing weight as she has had her feed & hay trebled & loads of conditioning feeds in the last 3 months with no real results. I am thinking of putting her on a conditioning senior feed though so will get some advice from Bailey,s or spillers on that.

 

[AmyMay]

Going to speak to my vet today to see if im ok giving her a different feed or if she wants me to wait til after the cushings test. As i mentioned before, i dont think its just a case of losing weight as she has had her feed & hay trebled & loads of conditioning feeds in the last 3 months with no real results. I am thinking of putting her on a conditioning senior feed though so will get some advice from Bailey,s or spillers on that.

You give us terribly conflicting information OP. Your horse is not on conditioning feed - yet you say she is.

Did you speak to D&H yesterday? Did you not speak to other feed companies yesterday?

 

[Michelle c]

You give us terribly conflicting information OP. Your horse is not on conditioning feed - yet you say she is.

Did you speak to D&H yesterday? Did you not speak to other feed companies yesterday?

No she isnt on conditioning feed as such as my vet said what i was feed her was fine. We both think there is something else going on more than just losing weight as my horse is just skin & bone in less than 3 months. I have trebled her feed & hay as well as adding Linseed meal, fenugreek & fibre beet to her feed in large amounts. If it was just a feed issue i would have thought there would of been some kind of increase in weight. I dont want to put her on a mix feed as they have made her ill in the past. But her was on baileys nu 4 until she got lamie (about 3 years ago) so when i saw the baileys woman then she told me to put her on lo-cal, hi fi lite, soaked hay & speedibeet just for winter. If i needed any extra weight us linseed or something with lots of oil but no sugar or starch which is what i have done.

 

[AmyMay]

Which is why you need to speak to an equine nutritionist. And as suggested much, much earlier you also need to look at splitting those big feeds in to about 4 or 5 a day, to enable her to digest them more productively and give her every opportunity of gaining some weight.

However, I suspect you are right and that it's not a food related issue that your horse has.

But, I suspect you are on a very quick countdown here timewise, and in your shoes I'd have been on to the nutritionists yesterday (because you never know, it could be as simple as calories).

I'm assuming you spoke to the vets yesterday about a referral to Leahurst. What did they say??

 

[BillyBob-Sleigh]

OP, I know this must be a terribly distressing time for you, but this mare needs to be referred the equine hospital. You mentioned that you don't want her moving in her current state but as Amymay said, unfortunately it looks like you are against the clock. Has there been any more news from the vets?

also, do you have any pictures of how she was 3 months ago and how she is now just to give us an idea of exactly how much she's lost.

QueenBee has given excellent advice.

 

[misterjinglejay]

Could it be GS? Or something similar?

 

[Maesfen]

Are you able to discount ragwort poisoning for sure?

 

[AmyMay]

Could it be GS? Or something similar?

What happened to her? do you still have her? (wanting a happy ending!)

Good suggestion:

http://www.grasssickness.org.uk/egsf-page.aspx?pageID=46

In chronic grass sickness, the symptoms come on more slowly and only some cases show mild, intermittent colic. The appetite is likely to be reduced and there will be varying degrees of difficulty in swallowing but salivation, accumulation of fluid in the stomach and severe constipation are not a feature. One of the major symptoms is rapid and severe weight loss which may lead to emaciation.

 

[Michelle c]

Not grass sickness or ragwort. Waiting to speak to Vet & dodsen & horrell call backs.

 

[Queenbee]

Which is why you need to speak to an equine nutritionist. And as suggested much, much earlier you also need to look at splitting those big feeds in to about 4 or 5 a day, to enable her to digest them more productively and give her every opportunity of gaining some weight.

However, I suspect you are right and that it's not a food related issue that your horse has.

But, I suspect you are on a very quick countdown here timewise, and in your shoes I'd have been on to the nutritionists yesterday (because you never know, it could be as simple as calories).

I'm assuming you spoke to the vets yesterday about a referral to Leahurst. What did they say??

I agree, op, I'm going to be blunt.... You need to get calories into her pronto, you need soaked mushy food to help her digest... Copra is really a fantastic conditioning feed and very suitable in this case. I really think you need to be looking at x rays of the neck, if not, you are looking at an absorption issue most probably and either way you NEED to be focusing on feed now or you won't have time to find out what the issue is and whether it is fixable. As a horse loses weight, the viscosity of its blood increases and this can trigger laminitis, it also puts significant pressure on the heart and causes a heart murmur and increased work... Beats per minute increase. You need to get a blood tonic down your horses throat daily.... This gave me a couple of precious weeks extra to try and find out what was wrong with my mare and if it was fixable. I personally think your vet is focussing to hard on cushings, there is no reason why you can't up the feed, X-ray and test for cushings at once, at the same time as buting for pain. You need to be throwing as much at this as possible in one go, time is absolutely of the essence here, especially as it may get to a point where your horse is so low that she just goes off her food... Then you are in major trouble and so is she. Split those feeds up, even if its not a "food" issue, your horse clearly needs to be able to make the very best of what is going into her at the moment. Pop her on a digestive aid too. In your position I would be being very proactive and saying I want x y z done now! To the vets, it is your choice and you pay them. I was very much involved with the treatment of my horse and some of the treatments and tests undertaken were at my request.

 

[AmyMay]

Not grass sickness or ragwort. Waiting to speak to Vet & dodsen & horrell call backs.

Did vet mention grass sickness? Would it be worth them contacting Royal Dick to discuss it with them?

 

[Queenbee]

Not grass sickness or ragwort. Waiting to speak to Vet & dodsen & horrell call backs.

Michelle, give horsehage a call... They use an independent nutritionalist who is held in very high regard across the country, she is approached by many of the feed companies for advice... Very well respected for her knowledge and not affiliated with any one feed company...

Also, I'm sounding like a stuck record, but x rays keep screaming at me! If there was so much trouble with c1 and c2 there is probably a lot going on in there that needs sorting and could well be causing this... No chiro has x ray eyes and yours could only go on what she feels... This would absolutely be a priority if it were my horse

 

[Spring Feather]

Vets are not the first port of call for nutrition matters, so glad you have finally called a nutritionalist. When a horse is in imminent danger of death due to starvation/lack of calories I'm afraid the fact it had laminitis at some prior point in its life is not the most important thing right now. If a horse needs a higher calorific content (which although may not be the only thing going on with your horse, judging by what you are feeding horse it really isn't enough IMO) then you have to forget about the laminitis for the moment as that is not what is life-threatening to the horse at this moment in time.

One of my oldies, a TB almost 30 years old, held weight and looked great. He had his annual vaccinations and within 10 days was dead as the weight literally peeled off him. I gave him probiotics, fed a diet specially devised by my very experienced nutritionist. I fed him feeds 6 times a day but nothing helped and I made the decision to have him put down when I noticed one of his back legs had started to quiver. I knew he was not going to survive this and he would deteriorate further. It was an easy decision to make as it was clear feed was not the issue and the vaccinations was just too much for a horse of this age. Lesson learned and no old horses here are vaccinated anymore.

I hope you have a better outcome with your horse than with my oldie and if I were you I'd pull out all stops to try anything (including feeding unsuitable for laminitics feed for temporary higher calorific intake) before giving up.

 

[misterjinglejay]

I know it's been asked before, but can you post some photo's please?