Sleep deprivation

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marillier

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I have a little coloured cob aged eight that I think is suffering from sleep deprivation rather than narcolepsy although I would not know the difference. When at rest she starts to collapse, head goes down and then she goes down on one knee and then recovers. I have hardly ever seen her lie down in the field and never sleep with her head on the ground. She is the same in the stable as her bed shows no sign of a horse having laid down. It doesn't seem to do too much harm except that she cuts herself sometimes just on the pastern as she falls so she wears pastern wraps. This is a very fizzy little horse that has never had a problem when being ridden. She is in a field with her mother, a very dominant mare, who does lie down and sleep. Any suggestions?
 
Nothing to suggest - i had an old arab mare who did the same as she got older (30+) - stopped bringing her in. She did fall over in the field a couple of times, the scariest being when she fell sideways into the fence but generally it was like watching a person nodding off and as the head gets lower into a painful position the person suddenly wakes up and head pops back up. I just put it down to old age with my mare and she was very much a dominant mare, only saw her sit down about 5 times in the 13 years i owned her. if you can make the horse feel ultra secure and potentially have them lower in the pecking order so they aren't "lookout" that can apparently help.
 
Very sharp, but not stressy. Sort of horse that sees gremlins in every bush, but very forward in every way. Interesting that she maybe has to remain on lookout for her mum but if her mum is such a dominant horse why can't she feel secure enough to lie down and sleep herself. It cannot be anything pain related as she rolls quite happily. Maybe we need another horse in the field but that won't really help in the stables. Incidentally both horses can see eachother and interact in the stables.
 
marillier said:
Very sharp, but not stressy. Sort of horse that sees gremlins in every bush, but very forward in every way. Interesting that she maybe has to remain on lookout for her mum but if her mum is such a dominant horse why can't she feel secure enough to lie down and sleep herself. It cannot be anything pain related as she rolls quite happily. Maybe we need another horse in the field but that won't really help in the stables. Incidentally both horses can see eachother and interact in the stables.
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I guess being able to interact in the stables is why she doesn't get down, the older mare is probably too dominant and not allowing her to relax and sleep, I would give her a week of separation if you can and see if that helps, another horse in the mix should make a difference, equine behaviour is still a bit of a mystery as every set up is so different and what works well for some doesn't for others.

I had a mare that was never relaxed in my indoor block where they can interact, she changed completely when moved to the outdoor yard where she could only see another horse if she looked out over the door. You say she is not stressy but spooking and being sharp may be her way of showing stress, you have only ever known her to be this way a change in her living arrangements may mean she becomes less sharp to ride.
 
One of my boys has this. I've now owned him nearly ten years and he has never been a horse that is happy to lie down and get some sleep.

He's worse when he is tied up, which we think is due to the fact that he spent an awful lot of time cross tied when in training and apparently used to do this because he couldn't lie down.

That said, it's never really been a problem other than he has occasionally bitten his tongue and scuffs his fetlocks. I use soft neoprene over reach boots turned inside out (so they stick up) to protect him.

It can be quite alarming to watch but I can honestly say that it's never caused us any real problems and he's never done it ridden, although he did come quite close in the line up at Royal Windsor waiting in the sun for 35 other horses to do their individual shows!!

I did a lot of research about this subject alongside my vet when it first became apparent and it did appear to be more prevalent in horses experiencing hock pain so this could be something to consider.

The only other thing I can recommend is to tell any new yard about this as a few have thought my horse is dying!
 
My old mare never used to lie down in the field, she'd always sleep standing up. She would lie down in her stable though. She was a bit older than your horse when her knees first started buckling when sleeping standing up. It would then happen quite regularly, sometimes she'd go down on her knees then recover, a couple of times she went right down. I thought it was narcolepsy, got vet out and arthritis in her knees was diagnosed. The arthritis meant she couldn't lock her knee joints so when she fell asleep they'd buckle. It never seemed to affect her in any other way, she wasn't lame and she got to 26 without it causing her any other problems. I suspect she did suffer with a bit of sleep deprivation in her later years as she didn't lie down so much in her stable then due to hock arthritis. May not be the case in your horse but maybe something to bear in mind, if your horse doesn't get to lie down at all it may be it's solely sleep deprivation causing it.
 
A friends horse does this. Her vet had suggested she keeps a diary of when this happens so as she is on a large yard she's put a note on the board asking people to keep an eye open for her horse lying down or kneeling and to record date and time. I also know of a friend of a friend whose gelding does this and would often collapse, again only ever in the stable. Again the vet ruled out narcolepsy. Wonder if its a gelding trait. One is a WB the other is half Welsh half WB.
 
I just feel it must be so tiring if you have to fall over when you want to go to sleep. She is sometimes worse when she is very relaxed for example when clipping her, you see her bottom jaw start to drop down, then her head drops to the ground and then her legs buckle, mostly the near fore. I feel that it must affect her performance but it doesn't seem to atall, she never seems to be tired but then if you bang your pasterns continually you would think this would eventually cause a problem. No sign of arthritis and the horse is keen to jump 4ft and does a really nice dressage test. Somehow it cannot be right and I would love to get to the bottom of what causes it.
 
This is exactly what my 24 year old Arab x Connie gelding does. It's frightening to watch him fast asleep and swaying around, repeatedly almost hitting the floor before half waking up and pulling himself back upright. I've seen him asleep with his front legs stretched in front of him, nose and chest on the floor but hind legs still upright. He just won't give in and lie down. But he happily gets down for a roll, can still roll right over, and bounces to his feet with no problems. In the 13 years I've owned him I've only seen him lying down about 5 times and came to the conclusion that it was a 'herd protector' thing (he's permanently on lookout duty and always trots over to investigate anything scary or new while everyone else runs to a safe distance and then stands there snorting). Now that he's older and stiffer I wonder if he just feels too vulnerable to lie down? Either way, I just wish he'd chill out once in a while and give his arthritic joints some rest.
 
Gosh the bit about hock pain hit a nerve. My old mare won't lie down in the field and if I don't bring her into a stable with a really thick bed for a lie down each day she exhibits symptoms of sleep deprivation. She also has to have her hocks medicated every so often for arthritis and is on Bute for the same. She still hacks and ridden she is fantastic but just will not lie down in the field.
Wimbles said:
One of my boys has this. I've now owned him nearly ten years and he has never been a horse that is happy to lie down and get some sleep.

He's worse when he is tied up, which we think is due to the fact that he spent an awful lot of time cross tied when in training and apparently used to do this because he couldn't lie down.

That said, it's never really been a problem other than he has occasionally bitten his tongue and scuffs his fetlocks. I use soft neoprene over reach boots turned inside out (so they stick up) to protect him.

It can be quite alarming to watch but I can honestly say that it's never caused us any real problems and he's never done it ridden, although he did come quite close in the line up at Royal Windsor waiting in the sun for 35 other horses to do their individual shows!!

I did a lot of research about this subject alongside my vet when it first became apparent and it did appear to be more prevalent in horses experiencing hock pain so this could be something to consider.

The only other thing I can recommend is to tell any new yard about this as a few have thought my horse is dying!
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It's heartbreaking to watch. My mare had this after an accident where she had to have a lot of painkillers etc (hindsight this was the cause)
And it really is a problem when a horse falls into sleep every 2 weeks (yes they just crash into remsleep) I had camera's so I know exactly what happened. Many times she was cast in the stable because of falling down eventually.

She was also happy to roll in the mud, but not to lie down to sleep. After many efforts:
- enlarged her already large stable to twice the size (7x4m)
- bloodtests
- ovary scan

I started her on ulcer medication and after 1 week she began to lie down to sleep herself again. In a similar thread on a dutch forum this was actually the solution for many horses (not all unfortunately) but quite easy to try out.
 
OK, so what we have learnt from this forum is that this is not narcolepsy it is almost certainly sleep deprivation and caused by some pain related incident that may or may not be still causing pain but has been imprinted on the horses behaviour. Fascinating, but how do you go about curing it, the ulcer medication is an interesting one.
 
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