Sleep deprivation

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jellen

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I have a 19 YO OTTB gelding who has developed sleep deprivation. He will collapse at times. My vet told me not to work him. He will lie down often to roll but doesn’t sleep lying down. I am giving him vit e supplements liquid and it seems the episodes are fewer and he is acting a bit more alert. I have a very good vet specialist coming soon and I want a full blood count and a full neuro exam. Has anyone seen this? I’m so afraid I will have to put him down and I’m so worried! Does anyone know if there is hope? It’s been going on for about 4 months, at least what people, including me, have observed. I’ll try to attach a video. I’m so anxious for information, even if it is a hopeless situation. He is healthy otherwise and I have had no major problems. He raced slot until he was 5. Thanks!
 

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Hi, I'm sorry to hear that.

Did anything change 6-8 months ago? Did a pal leave his field? If he can lie down to roll, what could be making him feel less secure to go to sleep?

If he is stabled, could there be rats? Does he have a pal in sight? If he is out at pasture, does he have pals to watch over him that he gets on with?
 
Is he falling over when he is dozing? It’s surprisingly common, especially in older horses. Two of mine have done it, for a time. One was better after introducing a joint supplement and a bute trial and the other did it when she joined my herd.. I’m guessing she just didn’t feel safe enough to sleep properly, as she’d never lived with more than one horse before. Both issues resolved eventually and they are now happy to lay down and sleep properly.

if you haven’t already, see if a two week trial of bute helps. That will tell you if it’s pain related. Just because they can roll it doesn’t mean they’ll be happy laying down for any time, especially if they know they’ll be stiff and won’t be able to get up quickly. If it’s not pain has anything changed to make him feel that he’s not able to properly relax? A new horse in the herd or has his management changed?
 
Thank you both for your reply. Yes, I tried bute for a couple of weeks, then my vet put him on equioxx, which he has been on since the very end of July. He lies down to roll. No one at the barn has seen him in recumbent sleep. He moved to his current place May 1. He has a stall with an attached paddock. He had that at his barn previously. I don't like to lock a horse in a stall. So at the previous place, he was with 3 geldings, and they were in fairly close proximity. In his current situation, 2 other horses besides mine have their own paddock. One is a gelding and one is a mare. He is close to them, and can see them. There are 4 horses that live together in a herd and he can see them. So his environment isn't that different than the one he had been in for 5 years. I have had him for 9 years and have moved him about 6 times, and he has always adapted. He is a very nice horse and people like him, and when he has been turned out with others, in general there were no problems. The environment now is kind of in the woods, but it isn't that different from the other place. Where he is now, they don't use bedding, just a matted stall. I begged to have bedding put down, and said I would clean his stall. This barn is full board, the previous one was rough board and I used pellets. So they finally let me use shavings and it didn't help. Then I bedded the stall with a large amount of straw - still no change. Then I put the straw bed outside, and still no change, even though he would roll in it. We used a camera overnight once and he laid down 4 times but got right back up. I had his vitamin e levels checked along with selenium mid-July and his vit e was a bit low, selenium fine. So I started adding natural liquid vitamin e the beginning of August. I gave him large amounts, and there was a change in terms of how he responded to me, like he was more alert and paid more attention to me. I'm not working him, but I brush him alot and spend time with him and usually take him for a walk to get grass. There is no grass in his paddock. He gets alot of hay and alfalfa cubes soaked. He is on very little grain. So I don't think his diet is to blame, as it really hasn't changed much in the past 7 years. The vit e was the only positive thing I have seen, and it could just be that it will take a few weeks to fully take effect. He is on cosequin ASU as he has arthritis in his hocks, but that was diagnosed years ago. He did, after all, race quite a bit. I have a very good lameness vet coming soon, and I have used her before. She is really the best! I think I am just looking for reassurance that there is some hope. I would hate to put him down if there is something that can be done. On the other hand, I want a horse that I can work, and ride, and would hate to put him in retirement. The other thing is the risk of him injuring himself during an episode - seriously, not just the few scratches on his knees. Personally, I think the problem is something medical, or physiological, not psychological. It is like something just isn't connecting in his brain and is causing sleep problems. I have periodic limb movement disorder and have to take klonopin so I don't kick in my sleep. But I did a sleep study to diagnose it. Horses don't sleep like we do. Sorry this is long, but any help is greatly appreciated. Does anyone know if acupuncture can help? The vet I have coming does that. I'm going to have her do complete blood work and a neuro exam. He doesn't have Lyme Disease as that came back negative. Thanks again and I hope you all have healthy, happy horses!
 
I think giving up hope would be premature, since you don’t even have a reason yet!
Are you not working him because of the sleep deprivation? Or because of something else? You know he has arthritis so perhaps that’s worsening? A bit of gentle work might help with the arthritis and the sleep problems.
My mare went temporarily to a field where trees were all round. She turned into a nervous wreck, so much so that I had to move her. She’s normally unflappable and sensible, but just couldn’t cope with the trees she wasn’t used to. We think maybe the fact that deer passed through but she couldn’t see them just unsettled her. That was 9 months ago and it’s only recently she’s chilled out about trees again.
I think a thorough examination from the vet is probably a good idea then at least you can discount something.
 
jellen said:
Thank you both for your reply. Yes, I tried bute for a couple of weeks, then my vet put him on equioxx, which he has been on since the very end of July. He lies down to roll. No one at the barn has seen him in recumbent sleep. He moved to his current place May 1. He has a stall with an attached paddock. He had that at his barn previously. I don't like to lock a horse in a stall. So at the previous place, he was with 3 geldings, and they were in fairly close proximity. In his current situation, 2 other horses besides mine have their own paddock. One is a gelding and one is a mare. He is close to them, and can see them. There are 4 horses that live together in a herd and he can see them. So his environment isn't that different than the one he had been in for 5 years. I have had him for 9 years and have moved him about 6 times, and he has always adapted. He is a very nice horse and people like him, and when he has been turned out with others, in general there were no problems. The environment now is kind of in the woods, but it isn't that different from the other place. Where he is now, they don't use bedding, just a matted stall. I begged to have bedding put down, and said I would clean his stall. This barn is full board, the previous one was rough board and I used pellets. So they finally let me use shavings and it didn't help. Then I bedded the stall with a large amount of straw - still no change. Then I put the straw bed outside, and still no change, even though he would roll in it. We used a camera overnight once and he laid down 4 times but got right back up. I had his vitamin e levels checked along with selenium mid-July and his vit e was a bit low, selenium fine. So I started adding natural liquid vitamin e the beginning of August. I gave him large amounts, and there was a change in terms of how he responded to me, like he was more alert and paid more attention to me. I'm not working him, but I brush him alot and spend time with him and usually take him for a walk to get grass. There is no grass in his paddock. He gets alot of hay and alfalfa cubes soaked. He is on very little grain. So I don't think his diet is to blame, as it really hasn't changed much in the past 7 years. The vit e was the only positive thing I have seen, and it could just be that it will take a few weeks to fully take effect. He is on cosequin ASU as he has arthritis in his hocks, but that was diagnosed years ago. He did, after all, race quite a bit. I have a very good lameness vet coming soon, and I have used her before. She is really the best! I think I am just looking for reassurance that there is some hope. I would hate to put him down if there is something that can be done. On the other hand, I want a horse that I can work, and ride, and would hate to put him in retirement. The other thing is the risk of him injuring himself during an episode - seriously, not just the few scratches on his knees. Personally, I think the problem is something medical, or physiological, not psychological. It is like something just isn't connecting in his brain and is causing sleep problems. I have periodic limb movement disorder and have to take klonopin so I don't kick in my sleep. But I did a sleep study to diagnose it. Horses don't sleep like we do. Sorry this is long, but any help is greatly appreciated. Does anyone know if acupuncture can help? The vet I have coming does that. I'm going to have her do complete blood work and a neuro exam. He doesn't have Lyme Disease as that came back negative. Thanks again and I hope you all have healthy, happy horses!
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meleeka said:
I think giving up hope would be premature, since you don’t even have a reason yet!
Are you not working him because of the sleep deprivation? Or because of something else? You know he has arthritis so perhaps that’s worsening? A bit of gentle work might help with the arthritis and the sleep problems.
My mare went temporarily to a field where trees were all round. She turned into a nervous wreck, so much so that I had to move her. She’s normally unflappable and sensible, but just couldn’t cope with the trees she wasn’t used to. We think maybe the fact that deer passed through but she couldn’t see them just unsettled her. That was 9 months ago and it’s only recently she’s chilled out about trees again.
I think a thorough examination from the vet is probably a good idea then at least you can discount something.
Click to expand...
 
Thank you so much. Did your mare start collapsing, or was just acting nervous. I'm not working him because my vet (not the specialist that is coming, but my general practitioner vet) said she wouldn't work him, as he was exhausted. He did the collapsing thing Aug. 3 when she came to give him his EEE vaccine, so at least she saw it. If you are in Europe, you might not have that issue. If I do work him, I am only going to hand walk him in the arena. I did some wraps on his hocks for a day, Back on Track, if you know about their products. I can do that more often, as long as it doesn't irritate his skin. When I first moved him to his present situation, he was in training with the owner. That's mainly why I moved him. We only did ground work, and were doing really well with it, but the collapsing thing just made me more uneasy and I didn't want him getting all tired out, but you have a point. Yes, I think I can do a bit of light work, without the trainer, just some simple circles, and going around poles and such. Thanks so much. I'm trying not to give up hope, and I pray every day, but it just gets hard. I have read that certain antidepressants may help, but some run the risk of colic. I'm so glad your mare is better!
 
Please stick to groundwork until the vet gives you the all clear, you can't risk him collapsing under you.

If the vet doesn't find a physical reason, I would try to take him back a yard where he was settled before to see how he does there now. Or if that's impossible, find a new yard for him to see how he is there. I don't know whether acupuncture would help your horse but I have certainly known it work well for muscle problems in both horses and people.
 
Mine had sleep apnea. When she dozed when standing she went backwards until she almost went over, then seemed to wake herself up. A friends went forward so there doesn’t seem to be a set pattern. She didn’t ever just fall over, it was only when dozing so it would depend on when it actually happens as to whether I’d get on. Whatever work you do, try and stick to straight lines and easy stuff. If it’s pain related you don’t want to make it worse.
 
anything change back Did a buddy leave his field In the event that he can rests to roll what could be causing him to feel less make sure about to rest
 
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