Slightly dumb question about worming for tapeworm

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now_loves_mares

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I have had faecal worm counts plus tapeworm blood tests done recently. The faecal worm counts were completely negative (yeah) but the tapeworm analyser showed moderate worms. Vet said that they were definitely not that bad but recommended I give them a pramox. I've been trying to find a day when I can keep them off the field for 24 hours. However then it struck me that I probably don't need to? Given that you can't detect tapeworm in a faecal count, does it not then follow that the effects of the wormer won't be in their droppings to re-infect the field?
 
Yup, according to google there is no direct infection horse to horse. It requires and intermediary. My vet told me the commonest route is through dogs and I have a friend who has terrible horse tapeworm problems grazing a field regularly used for dog walking.
 
cptrayes said:
Yup, according to google there is no direct infection horse to horse. It requires and intermediary. My vet told me the commonest route is through dogs and I have a friend who has terrible horse tapeworm problems grazing a field regularly used for dog walking.
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Tapeworm reproduce by segmenting which is why you don't find them in FEC's. Tapeworm have become far more prevelant since the 'Mectin' based wormers have been around as Tapeworm are not affected by it.

The best wormer to use is one containing both Praziquontal & a mectin based wormer. Keeping the horses off the pasture is ideal - as until the wormer kicks in they will still be passing live segments.

I now worm mine three monthly with a multiple wormer as they can pick up the segments from grazing with no problem at all.

Life cycle
An adult tapeworm consists of a head-that attaches to the intestinal wall with a set of suckers-and a segmented body; each segment contains within it a complete set of reproductive organs that can produce eggs independently. As the worm grows, the lower segments separate and their eggs are carried off in the passing stream of digesting food on their way out of the horse's body. Once on the ground, the manure is broken down with the help of oribatid mites; the mites ingest the eggs, which develop into larvae inside their bodies. If the larvae-carrying mites crawl up onto the grass and are eaten by a grazing horse, the tapeworm larvae will settle into a new host.
 
I always thought that the reason for keeping the horse off the field for 24 hours or so is to prevent any worm population living in the field from being exposed to any small dose of the chemical in the wormer. The droppings won't contain live worms or larvae but they will contain some traces of the chemical used.

If worms/larvae are exposed to an amount that doesn't kill them then it is possible for them to develop a resistance to it. This isn't a problem for tapeworm that you refer to but for all the other types of worm that are around.
 
Evelyn said:
Tapeworm reproduce by segmenting which is why you don't find them in FEC's. Tapeworm have become far more prevelant since the 'Mectin' based wormers have been around as Tapeworm are not affected by it.

The best wormer to use is one containing both Praziquontal & a mectin based wormer. Keeping the horses off the pasture is ideal - as until the wormer kicks in they will still be passing live segments.

I now worm mine three monthly with a multiple wormer as they can pick up the segments from grazing with no problem at all.

Life cycle
An adult tapeworm consists of a head-that attaches to the intestinal wall with a set of suckers-and a segmented body; each segment contains within it a complete set of reproductive organs that can produce eggs independently. As the worm grows, the lower segments separate and their eggs are carried off in the passing stream of digesting food on their way out of the horse's body. Once on the ground, the manure is broken down with the help of oribatid mites; the mites ingest the eggs, which develop into larvae inside their bodies. If the larvae-carrying mites crawl up onto the grass and are eaten by a grazing horse, the tapeworm larvae will settle into a new host.
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Agree with this one! Although if your redworm count is so low, there seems little point in using ivermectin - you could just use praziquantel on its own. Tapeworm eggs can be detected by an egg count, but you have to use sugar instead of salt so it's all very sticky, and because the eggs come out in packages the count can be very unreliable. That's why the blood test was developed - it's much more reliable.
Tapeworm are just as likely as any other species to develop resistance.
 
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Strongid P is a double dose for tapeworm, just to remind people. Begs a question though, if you have previously single dosed for other worms and the horse had tapeworm at the time whether you will now have Strongid P resistant tapeworm. Probably safest to use praziquantel if you have ever used single dose Strongid P???
 
if you are going to use pramox the reason for keeping them off of the grass for 48hrs is due to the chemicals used in it which can supposedly contaminate the grazing. If your horse lives out then they say continue grazing them whereas if they are usually in and only out for a short time each day you should keep them in.
 
Thanks for replies everyone, I have been away for a few days hence my delay in coming back to this. I think I am a little bit more confused than ever as to whether I should keep them off the grass:o. However I have decided not to use the pramox that's in my tackroom as they don't need the effect of moxidectin, so will just get the Equitape. No point introducing chemicals I don't need. Thanks for the suggestion.

(I've not been using Strongid-P as a regular wormer, I don't use wormers very often anyway due to getting worm counts done).

They are in at night and out during the day. At the moment this is out from 7am to 4pm. So If I wormed as soon as they came in, that'd be 13 hours off the grass. Given I'm still not completely clear on why I should keep them off it (is it the segments of worm? Contamination of grazing? Or risk of chemical resistance? ) ; then I'm not sure what period I really need to keep them off it for :confused:
 
Equimax has prazi and ivermectin and you dont need to double dose for tapeworms with that particular brand. Depending on the weight of your horse it may work out cheaper than something like Strongid P.
 
Couple of things. (well several actually).

It is unnecessary to worm for tapeworm every time. To do so is exposing your horse to chemicals they don't need and your wallet to extra expense.

The RVC among others is now recommending targetted worming. ie worm count (which doesn't show encysted redworms, bots or tapeworms) and worm accordingly.

Worm for tape worm and encysted in Autumn and Spring

If you do need to worm for Strongyles then it is often wise to worm for these separately, followed by tape worm a couple of weeks later.

The reason being, if your horse has a heavy worm burden the die off of large numbers of worms can cause secondary illness in your horse (sometimes fatal).

Routine blanket worming ie where every horse on a yard is wormed in the same way every time is considered to be contributing to the resistance problem. For example Pramox is now suffering a resistance problem at some yards because of this.

Apparently the 80/20 rule applies here too. As in it is the small minority of horses which are responsible for carrying the majority of worms.

As always it is good management which is the best option. So the dreaded poo picking is still on the table.

Old style wormers which worked on the 'expel' method were the reason why it was recommended that horses be kept in after worming. Modern wormers do not work this way. However you do need to be careful if dogs are present because some breeds of dogs, eg Collies are very susceptible to the chemicals in some wormers and can be very ill if they ingest them (sometimes fatal).

Hope that helps
 
LucyPriory said:
Couple of things. (well several actually).

It is unnecessary to worm for tapeworm every time. To do so is exposing your horse to chemicals they don't need and your wallet to extra expense.

Not good - Life cycle of Tapeworm is approximately 2months

The RVC among others is now recommending targetted worming. ie worm count (which doesn't show encysted redworms, bots or tapeworms) and worm accordingly.
Of course they are! great for their income

Worm for tape worm and encysted in Autumn and Spring
Not correct - Life cycle of Tapeworm is approximately 2months

If you do need to worm for Strongyles then it is often wise to worm for these separately, followed by tape worm a couple of weeks later. At twice the price of a combined wormer and again who benefits - the vet service!

The reason being, if your horse has a heavy worm burden the die off of large numbers of worms can cause secondary illness in your horse (sometimes fatal).

This is very rare though - if you could have seen what came out of my 6mth old Clyde weanling when I bought her - looked like spagetti and meatballs, been bomb drenching for decades with no problems

Routine blanket worming ie where every horse on a yard is wormed in the same way every time is considered to be contributing to the resistance problem. For example Pramox is now suffering a resistance problem at some yards because of this.

In a large yard where turnout may be shared this is the only safe way to worm for the health of all horses. One racing stable I worked in wormed each horse as an individual but a newly wormed horse might be oout in a paddock that had been used by a horse due to be wormed - re infestation was rapid. Yearlings brought in from one paddock were wormed and the dung climbed into the weelbarrow on it's own the next day - so many red worm. Where is the information regarding these resistance problems coming from?

Apparently the 80/20 rule applies here too. As in it is the small minority of horses which are responsible for carrying the majority of worms.

As always it is good management which is the best option. So the dreaded poo picking is still on the table.

Old style wormers which worked on the 'expel' method were the reason why it was recommended that horses be kept in after worming. Modern wormers do not work this way. However you do need to be careful if dogs are present because some breeds of dogs, eg Collies are very susceptible to the chemicals in some wormers and can be very ill if they ingest them (sometimes fatal).
Not correct - the reason the horses should be kept off grazing is that the MODERN drugs now used leave a residue in the dung, worm farms lost many of their stock after using dung supplied by a racing stable that had recently wormed with Ivomec - it will kill the garden worms too. Dung from horses wormed with Modern wormers should be collected up and disposed of where the chemicals cannot get into the food chain.

Hope that helps
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Using a broad spectrum wormer each time really reduces ALL the parasites preventing any of them getting a hold.
 
there was a thread on arabian lines a few weeks ago. apparently a yearling died and others were ill because one type of tape worm wasnt killed by the wormer. it just multipliedand moved into the space left by the others. the ver recommended strongid -p wormer in spring and then again in JULY. this seems to tie in with the 2 month life cycle stated above.
 
LucyPriory said:
Couple of things. (well several actually).

It is unnecessary to worm for tapeworm every time. To do so is exposing your horse to chemicals they don't need and your wallet to extra expense.

The RVC among others is now recommending targetted worming. ie worm count (which doesn't show encysted redworms, bots or tapeworms) and worm accordingly.

Worm for tape worm and encysted in Autumn and Spring

If you do need to worm for Strongyles then it is often wise to worm for these separately, followed by tape worm a couple of weeks later.

The reason being, if your horse has a heavy worm burden the die off of large numbers of worms can cause secondary illness in your horse (sometimes fatal).

Routine blanket worming ie where every horse on a yard is wormed in the same way every time is considered to be contributing to the resistance problem. For example Pramox is now suffering a resistance problem at some yards because of this.

Apparently the 80/20 rule applies here too. As in it is the small minority of horses which are responsible for carrying the majority of worms.

As always it is good management which is the best option. So the dreaded poo picking is still on the table.

Old style wormers which worked on the 'expel' method were the reason why it was recommended that horses be kept in after worming. Modern wormers do not work this way. However you do need to be careful if dogs are present because some breeds of dogs, eg Collies are very susceptible to the chemicals in some wormers and can be very ill if they ingest them (sometimes fatal).

Hope that helps
Click to expand...

Not sure if this was directed at me or another poster, but it's slightly off the original question :). I'll respond anyway though. I am not worming for tapeworm every time - I've had a blood test done and they need a tapeworm treatment, at vet's advice. I don't need to worm for Strongyles, hence I'm not using the Pramox (after further research and this thread). I don't blanket worm due to using worm counts.

In any case my feed store didn't have Equitape so I'll order it online.:)
 
Evelyn said:
Using a broad spectrum wormer each time really reduces ALL the parasites preventing any of them getting a hold.
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I actually have had this discussion with more than one vet and according to them no it doesn't - but this approach does increase the likelihood of wormer resistance.
 
now_loves_mares said:
Not sure if this was directed at me or another poster, but it's slightly off the original question :). I'll respond anyway though. I am not worming for tapeworm every time - I've had a blood test done and they need a tapeworm treatment, at vet's advice. I don't need to worm for Strongyles, hence I'm not using the Pramox (after further research and this thread). I don't blanket worm due to using worm counts.

In any case my feed store didn't have Equitape so I'll order it online.:)
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No - not aimed at anyone in particular, but some of the posts are suggesting practices which are not recommended by the RVC. Your approach of using only the wormer you need is the correct one.

Blanket worming although common is not recommended and is contrary to the advice being given out by the RVC and other veterinary authorities.
 
Evelyn said:
Using a broad spectrum wormer each time really reduces ALL the parasites preventing any of them getting a hold.
Click to expand...

I'm grateful for all advice and points of view, but am I bit concerned about this. Really these days I don't hear anyone (vet, BHSI instructor, feed store etc) recommending blanket worming. You recommended earlier in the thread that I use a wormer with mectin. Why would I use this when wormcount doesn't indicate I need to? I keep only 2 horses, at home. I don't poo pick but my two share a 10 acre field so it's not exactly overgrazed. I've been doing wormcounts for the last 3 years and seems like it's worked (tapeworm notwithstanding, I think I've missed a couple of critical windows hence the problem - which as I think I said above appears to be a very mild problem,) so I really don't see how blanket worming every 3 months is a good thing? I think I remember seeing you are in NZ. Perhaps this is where the difference lies, and resistance hasn't become a problem. Blanket worming brings vets out in a cold sweat over here; and I for one prefer not to introduce chemicals to my horse and the environment if I don't need to. :(

FWIW I don't think my vet is getting rich on worm counts - in all honesty I suspect they'd earn more from the wormer sales, but they don't recommend it unnecessarily.
 
LucyPriory said:
No - not aimed at anyone in particular, but some of the posts are suggesting practices which are not recommended by the RVC. Your approach of using only the wormer you need is the correct one.

Blanket worming although common is not recommended and is contrary to the advice being given out by the RVC and other veterinary authorities.
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ah ok - explains my confusion :). Thanks.
 
now_loves_mares said:
I'm grateful for all advice and points of view, but am I bit concerned about this. Really these days I don't hear anyone (vet, BHSI instructor, feed store etc) recommending blanket worming. You recommended earlier in the thread that I use a wormer with mectin. Why would I use this when wormcount doesn't indicate I need to? I keep only 2 horses, at home. I don't poo pick but my two share a 10 acre field so it's not exactly overgrazed. I've been doing wormcounts for the last 3 years and seems like it's worked (tapeworm notwithstanding, I think I've missed a couple of critical windows hence the problem - which as I think I said above appears to be a very mild problem,) so I really don't see how blanket worming every 3 months is a good thing? I think I remember seeing you are in NZ. Perhaps this is where the difference lies, and resistance hasn't become a problem. Blanket worming brings vets out in a cold sweat over here; and I for one prefer not to introduce chemicals to my horse and the environment if I don't need to. :(

FWIW I don't think my vet is getting rich on worm counts - in all honesty I suspect they'd earn more from the wormer sales, but they don't recommend it unnecessarily.
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It doesn't take many parasites to set in motion a mega build up in a short space of time. I'd rather blanket worm and knkow that what ever might be in there is killed off. If there aren't any red worms then they aren't going to develop a resistance, however if there are any they get bumped off. Years ago I nearly lost a horse due to the yard owner believing that a stabled horse didn't need worming - in the six months he was there he went from a top show hunter to a skinny hat rack as red worm ravaged his body. Fortunately it was the early days of Ivomec and th evet injected him - it took many months to build him back up. Prior to going to this yard on lease he had been wormed regularly. so in that short space of time he managed to get a major infestation.

A blanket wormer is only a little more in price than an individual type - so to me I'd rather be safer and sure that my horses are carrying the minimal burden. I run my 3 in five acres year round - the steers come in when the grass gets too long but other than that it is harrowed - either by tractor & harrow or by kick harrowing. The vet hasn't been round except for the odd gelding over the past 14years - they are all healthy.

Unless you can totally control where the horses have been, where they have grazed - even for a short time you can never be sure that they haven't picked up some worms.
 
Evelyn said:
I'd rather blanket worm and knkow that what ever might be in there is killed off. If there aren't any red worms then they aren't going to develop a resistance, however if there are any they get bumped off.
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But

a) any and all species of worm will eventually develop resistance to any and all wormers if they are overused

b) you DON'T know that the redworm will be affected unless you do a worm egg reduction test. I've seen cases where redworm count actually shot UP after worming (with benzimidazole).
 
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