Slightly lost my faith in vets . . .

Montys_Mum

Montys_Mum

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For everyone who hasnt seen my previous posts about a lame tb with suspected DJD (spavins), My TB boy has been lame since may this year, i have had two different vets come to see him, both saying he has degerative joint disease in his hocks and will never jump again, and will only be a light hack until he needs putting down :confused:.

He has been on danilon since then (1 a day then half a day for the last month). I had the chiroprater out to check it wasnt his pelvis (as i told both vets thats where the lameness seemed to come from when i rode and watched him move) turned out his pelvis was indeed out and slightly rotated!! poor boy.

He has since came sound! (no danilon, what so ever) :D :D :D :D :D
And i couldnt be any happier with how he is going. But i cant help thinking that both vets should really have spotted this months ago :confused:.

Has anyone else had a problem with vets like this??

p.s sorry for the long post :o
 
Well you know what the vets will say....

their treatment has worked perfectly, just as they thought it would and the pelvis is a wholly unrelated injury and have you had their permission to use said back person?
 
Sorry to hear about the trouble you've had but soooo glad your is feeling better...
Ive had a very recent issue with a vet but regarding our little pug not horses, she suddenly went blind, our vet (lifetime long & trusted vet may i add) looked at her and gave her some treatment but wasnt very positive re the outcome, we have a baby & another boisterous & didnt feel a hectic house was going to be the right place for her so decided to find her a new more settled & relaxing home.

The new owner has since had a second opinion & her vet was very unhappy with the medication our vet had prescribed & thinks with new meds her sight will return & already is imporving after 2 weeks.

We are now annoyed that we let our little lady go, but at the time we felt it was best for her & she is in a great place & very happy, but you think that you can trust your vets advice.... i will def seek 2nd/3rd & 4th opinons if i think its necessary in future!!
 
I had a problem earlier this year with my 5 year old bucking. Wasnt happy with the way she was going and she flinched when brushing her right loin. Got the back man out for a work up and she was sound for three days then the bucking started again so called the vet. I was convinced it was sacro but he said the 98% of back pain is caused by lower leg problems as the horse compensates for any discomfort by changing their way of going to apear sound therefore pulling and straining muscles and ligaments further up, in particular the pelvis/sacro area. One bone scan and a couple of xrays later and she had OCD in both hocks, so you could look at it two ways. They are going with the 98% and its DJD in which case the Chiro is only a temporary fix or they are going with the 98% and they are wrong and you have a horse in the 2% where the problem wasnt in the lower leg. Fingers crossed it's the latter.
 
My horse vets are brilliant so no, never had a problem. Have a lot of trust in them.
Pleased your horse is back to fitness now.
hope you don't mind me asking but how can a pelvis be out or rotated. would the horse still be able to walk. what do they mean by 'out'?
This isn't a trick question, i have just seen this a few times so thought I would ask. :-)
 
Gingerwitch said:
Well you know what the vets will say....

their treatment has worked perfectly, just as they thought it would and the pelvis is a wholly unrelated injury and have you had their permission to use said back person?
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well their 'treatment' was danilon to use as and when which sort of just left me at a loss and confused with what was actually wrong. I didnt have their permission, no, but i have used her before as she is a Mctimoney (i think it is) chiro and really helps him. But he could have other problems but this is the bet ive seen him all year.
 
chestnuttymare said:
My horse vets are brilliant so no, never had a problem. Have a lot of trust in them.
Pleased your horse is back to fitness now.
hope you don't mind me asking but how can a pelvis be out or rotated. would the horse still be able to walk. what do they mean by 'out'?
This isn't a trick question, i have just seen this a few times so thought I would ask. :-)
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I am actually not too sure, as i was confused how they could carry on with a 'pelvis out' but when its happened he is just slightly lame (1-2/10ths) and when she 'puts it back' she sort of lifts his hind leg really high and shoves basicly. Its weird but it works :)
 
sometimes vets get it wrong - I have had a vet operate on the wrong leg, and a another vet fail to determine lameness in horse when my farrier picked up cause and it was fixed by acupuncture

but vets are only human and sometimes diagnosis is not always straightforward
 
How did they actually diagnose the DJD? If the horse was lamer with flexion tests, and they were done correctly, then that would suggest there was an issue in the hock. Were they xrayed?

Don't forget that issues within joints can "settle down" over a period of time, especially if the horse is given anti inflamatory drugs and controlled excercise.

I have had many different Chiropracters over the years, some say that pelvises can "go out" others say it's impossible. My current osteopath says the latter. He believes it is impossible to the sacro illiac joint to be "out" if it was, the horse would be in extreme pain and be unable to move. Any unlevelness of the pelvis is uneven muscle development and spasm. It's this that is being relieved when the horse is manipulated, which of course can improve movement behind.

I don't really know what I believe. There is no doubt that these back people can do alot of good, but they can also spout some serious BS too!
 
My most recent experience with a vet - not my usual one - was not great and I was sceptical of his diagnosis as he was promoting his pet treatment. So I got a physio in who was more accurate in diagnosing the problem. She also diagnosed the pelvis out thing, but I think this is actually the overall uneveness of the horse - her description of him as she went from poll to back was something like, " poll tight, left shoulder back, back constricted, pelvis twisted and down to the right..." etc. But a layperson looking at my horse would see him as very balanced and well put together.
Like most horses he goes better on one rein than the other, and he does seem weaker on the left side.
On the other hand, I wasted a lot of time with physio treatments last year. Physio and I both thought he had a shoulder problem but he actually had damaged his upper suspensory ligaments in both hind legs.
Moral: if in doubt get another opinion and there are often cheaper fixes than medical ones (though not always - suspensory ligaments need medical treatment)
 
Monkers said:
How did they actually diagnose the DJD? If the horse was lamer with flexion tests, and they were done correctly, then that would suggest there was an issue in the hock. Were they xrayed?

Don't forget that issues within joints can "settle down" over a period of time, especially if the horse is given anti inflamatory drugs and controlled excercise.

I have had many different Chiropracters over the years, some say that pelvises can "go out" others say it's impossible. My current osteopath says the latter. He believes it is impossible to the sacro illiac joint to be "out" if it was, the horse would be in extreme pain and be unable to move. Any unlevelness of the pelvis is uneven muscle development and spasm. It's this that is being relieved when the horse is manipulated, which of course can improve movement behind.

I don't really know what I believe. There is no doubt that these back people can do alot of good, but they can also spout some serious BS too!
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The First vet to see him only watched him trot up, after the vet had brought out lameness (circling or concrete) and told me it was in his hind fetlocks.

Second vet did flexion tests trying to put more strain on the hocks than fetlocks but flexion tests are known to be ify on whether they determine something wrong. He had the same sort or lameness last september after stopping at a fence, which he had chiro out for. But they ignored me and just said he has DJD but i didnt have the money to get nerve blocks and x-rays. :o

I'm not really sure about what they are actually doing and what they mean by his pelvis is 'out' tbh cause i would have thought it would be impossible to move :confused:
 
I understand were your coming from... I've had a few issues with mine of late. It just adds to the whole stress and worry of having an injured horse.
 
Tbh I always remember that vets are a business and out to make money. My sister is a vet nurse and has commented that our local vet will drag out treatments for richer clients to make them pay more.

I once had a cat who was badly attacked by a dog. He needed surgery and then the vet insisted on seeing him every week for a check up, costing me £15 a visit. After a couple of visits where my cat was given nothing more than a quick look over, I decided the cat was on the mend and didn't need the vet. He healed up nicely. Bloody cat cost me the best part of £500! He was only a moggy too. (But a gorgeous one at that!)

So I don't have a lot of faith in vets. I think it's wise to get a second opinion in most cases where you think you are going to end up spending a lot of money.

At the end of the day they are only human and some can only see the ££ signs when they look at an animal.

I've now got a nice horse vet and I don't feel like I'm being ripped off when she comes out. Unfortunately the surgery is too far away to take my non-equine animal friends to.
 
Definatly experienced this early this year. Mare came in hopping lame, vet comes out and checks her. Thinks tendon injury. Comes out week later, mare completely sound. So scans her leg she was lame on. Nothing shows up on scan. -_-. Vet then goes;' I'm not really sure what I'm looking for...I think I'm gonna have to refer you to another vet.' So she does, vet comes out. (One of the best vets in Cheshire comes to look at my girl). Straight away, it's not a tendon, no heat, no swelling. Nothing. Does full lameness test on her, completely sound. Turns out she has probably just banged it in the field and at 22, she's gonna feel it more! That same vet, asks to test for cushings since mare got lammy last November, old vet didnt even mention cushings to us. Mare has very mild cushings so is put on medication. New vet practice are fantastic, come each week to our yard for a routine visit anyway! Old vets refunded everything after the referral.
Can completely understand your point, I was rather peed off when we got it sorted. Though I was mainly releaved that my girl was fine and back to herself!
 
Vets are not god but tehy seem to think they should be. If you find a good one then stick with them, they're like gold dust -just like farriers!

So glad to hear that you now have the problem sorted.
Never have faith in vets!
 
Montys_Mum said:
The First vet to see him only watched him trot up, after the vet had brought out lameness (circling or concrete) and told me it was in his hind fetlocks.

Second vet did flexion tests trying to put more strain on the hocks than fetlocks but flexion tests are known to be ify on whether they determine something wrong. He had the same sort or lameness last september after stopping at a fence, which he had chiro out for. But they ignored me and just said he has DJD but i didnt have the money to get nerve blocks and x-rays. :o

I'm not really sure about what they are actually doing and what they mean by his pelvis is 'out' tbh cause i would have thought it would be impossible to move :confused:
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Well, how a vet can diagnose DJD without Xrays, beats me!
 
Going through a similar thing with my mare. First vet told me 'get the back person out'. So I duly did, back person told me my mare was in a lot of pain and needed to see the vet, she suspected either KS or ligament/muscular damage as they both have similar symptoms, but would obviously need the vet to diagnose properly.

Phoned another vet, they came out almost immediately, because I am pregnant and not in a hurry to ride she said best to explore the muscular point of view first, and to try a course of bute, then x-rays after a course of physio treatment, obviously after discussing with the physio and vet. She also said she looks to have possibly broken her withers a long time ago which may or may not be connected. Luckily the vets have a digital portable x-ray machine as my mare is a very bad loader/traveler! :)

We are hopeful, but I was so cross with the first vet as they could have at least suggested the same treatment as the 2nd vet rather than passing the buck.
 
Yes. I can't say too much, but we have lost faith in our vets recently as they missed something very obvious - it was something very simple causing our girl a lot of pain and they missed it for weeks; another professional we called out, found it straight away and was so annoyed at the vets.
Months back they refused to test her for Cushings despite our farrier's insistance - eventually they did, 4 months later and it was positive - within a week, she was improving on the meds.
A vet has told another horse owner on our yard to PTS and it turned out her horse only had an abcess they'd missed too!
I'll always stand by that you know your own animal best!
K x
 
sorry to hear about your horse and the story.

I have a simaliar story my TB came in with a huge gash on hind leg an inch above the fetlock and quite deep. The YO called vet for me as I'm poorly at moment and was unable to attend there and then as required someone to take me. I did arrive after vet arrived and start to dress it. I was informed he had to go to the local equine hospital and he may never be ridden again or worse PTS as his fetlock joint was infected. This broke my heart but I could not get him there that night so vet say they will come back in morning and hopefully I can get him there that day.

Next day different vet came said he is really lucky and we (YO,me and Vet) can manage him at home. (less stressful for him). He now on 2 weeks box rest vet at moment very happy and be back friday.

I was so angry with the first vet for putting me through that. :mad:
 
scrunchie said:
Tbh I always remember that vets are a business and out to make money. My sister is a vet nurse and has commented that our local vet will drag out treatments for richer clients to make them pay more.


At the end of the day they are only human and some can only see the ££ signs when they look at an animal.

.
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Yeah ive heard they do that too. But it was explained to them that (stupidly) my horse is not insured and we dont have alot of money as it is. So its made me angry that they have put me through it all summer thinking my horse isnt going to last long and will need putting down if he doesnt improve! was bloody horrible, but was sceptic as soon as they tried to diagnose him with it :rolleyes:
 
Im sorry to say that if you cant/dont pay for diagnositics then dont expect a diagnosis in all but the most straightforward of cases. A horse with positive flexion tests in the hind limbs is most likely suffering from DJD - this does require nerve blocks/x rays to diagnose. You refused them - therfore you have a presumptive diagnosis. I aume if you didnt have money for diagnostics then you dont have money for treatment either - in which case its fair to assume your horse would be lame for the forseeable future and may get progressively worse.

Mny horses have spavin that goes undiagnosed (and probably not causing a huge amount of discomfort in daily life for the horse) until they develop another cause of lameness. This may or may not be related. (SI strain vs foot abscess). In a horse that has multiple sources of pain, finding the offending one DOES require diagnostics.

I dont think your vet is to blame in this case - you havent given him enogh scope to work it up. I bet your horse has some pelvic discomfort due to another cause - the MOST common reason for back/pelvic issues is secondary!
Also, just because the problem is subclinical at the moment does not mean it does not exist.
 
I know that a human physio can't actually put a pelvis 'back' so i find it impossible to believe she put your horses pelvis back 'in'. More she has released off muscle spasm which has caused a problem. However ur vets may have been correct in diagnosis just that it was affecting pelvis too and that's a bigger problem. But also time off and Danilon will have allowed joints to settle.
Glad ur horse is better tho fingers crossed stays that way x
 
Had a few issues with our local vet; bought a horse from friends of friends (or so we thought they were), this guy was a dealer but hey thought it's worth a look. Picked up a lovely 16hh TB mare, had "7 days garentee" so had her vetted at home.. Vet tested her back and she flipped out at him, rearing, kicking out, bucking all sorts.. He turned around and said kissing spines no doubt about it but would have to X-ray to prove it but as he was 99% sure there was really no point in doing so. We were absolutely devastated, she'd been so good and really become part of our family! We decided to take a long shot and call a well known chiropractor out.. She watched her trot up, had a feel and said she had a severely rotated pelvis and that was why she had freaked out when he pinched her back!

Second issue- my Oh's mare went away to stud, came back and the vet was called to scan her.. He scanned her and sadly she was not in foal.. So they went through winter and she came into the spring looking really fat so in fear she'd get laminitous, they sectioned her of a small paddock and put her in that 6/7 hours a day.. We get to that time of the year again for her to return to stud, still looking fat but bum and neck are thinner. Get her up to stud, stud vet takes one look and says that mares in foal! Turns out she was 9 months pregnant, heavily under weight for what she was about to go through.. The vet had scanned her to early, he'd been aware of the dates she was covered but still scanned her.

So what could have been a nice trouble free foaling has cost them a bomb In stud livery, stud foaling, vet bills and feed bills!

Third case by vets- about 2 years ago my friend had a pony with cushings desease, long story short- she got some sort of infection and was really really awful. I thought she was properly better PTS as she was 25 and she found fighting things off very hard. My friend asked the vets to be completely honest and to say if she should have her PTS and they said no no no we're pretty sure she'll get over this. They repeatedly said it until the day my friend demanded she were pts. The pony had began to actually rot to death, she couldn't eat a lot, drink much or barely stand up. The vets still didnt no what it was but insisted on keeping her alive. The pony went through more pain than it should have and it was down to the vets. I'm affraid I have lost a lot of faith in our local vets however the next vets out are fantastic!
 
I asked for the top vet in a practice to come out as I felt my horse possibly had intermittent mild lameness, I explained I had a new saddle, and I wanted to bring him in to full work, but was not 100% happy, and so on, the examination took five minutes, trot up and trot down, sound, no flexion no running hands along back, no turning, no lunging on the hard, the horse was sound, but to be honest, it was hardly a full exam! He did look at hind leg conformation and said the horse would have problems at some stage [though, now, I have never had any lameness in three years], and I have worked hard to build up strength and limb alignment through regular farriery and walking up hills.
He never asked to look at him under saddle, so really I felt he had not addressed the issues I felt were pertinent, and did not suggest any particular work with him, OK, he is usually asked out to fix broken horses, but my ethos is preventative work, I am happy to work within the constraints of the horse's ability.
I don't know if this is a loss of faith, it is more a slight disappointment that the vet and I are not working together as a team to do the best for the horse. It seem to be that today's vets come out, go for a quick fix and send out a bill, that is the end of their involvement, OK maybe I am asking too much, but when I speak to professionals in any field, I am open and honest, give my opinion and give my reasons, if they don't agree, I am happy to change my position.
 
I've had excellent treatment by vets, and some appalling treatment. The worst was at a major horse hospital when, even though my own vet had sent her up there saying it was a tooth abscess, they said that it wasn't, trephined her, and sent her home after a week. The situation didn't resolve, and I ended up taking her back again. She was there over two months while they decided that actually, it was a tooth abscess after all, they ballsed up taking the tooth out while she was under sedation as the crown fractured "because the horse moved it's head" - well give it more sedation and local anaesthetic then.. so she had to have general anaesthetic. The tooth pulp had gone completely, indicating that it had been there for some time. The horse then got numerous infections which they didn't diagnose or treat properly for weeks, and when she eventually came home, she looked like a cruelty case.
Next week I am having to take this same horse to Glasgow Vet school for a scintigraphy scan because of undiagosed lameness issues. I've not been to Glasgow before, but rather than going in awe of the vets, I am already feeling cynical and bitter. Lets hope they can change my mind.....
 
99.9% of horse present slightly unlevel after a flexion test, wouldnt you limp abit if someone bent you leg for 30 secs and then made you run?!?
You cannot diagnose DJD without scans/x-rays, and the fact they have diagnosed and then given you a prospect for the ridden side of things is just ridiculous! My tb was diagnose with DJD of the small tarsal joint in both hocks last august, once injected he came home and i was told to get walking him out on hacks straight away!! Not once did they say he will never jump again etc! he was also diagnosed with KS and navicular so chances are he wont jump or compete again, but thats my decision because i dont think he would look 100% so would be wasting my entry fees. The only reason he is sound is because i took his shoes off, the remedial shoeing made him worse. He has been in work 3 weeks now and is looking good! I hope yours stays sound now.
 
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