Slow motion video for lameness geeks

viola

viola

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For all of you who like analysing biomechanics and movement abnormalities!
Could you give me a bit of a run through all you you can spot in this horse on the below video please?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhYHoCZ0jR8

For those of you who read my blog and know what this horse has had issues with could you have a fresh look as if you didn't know?
The reason being, yes there is a long list of problems the vets have pinpointed but I have a suspicion as to something that has not been mentioned by any of the vets and wondered what you guys can see.
He is very willing in his work and always happy to go places. He is in walk work only and video shows his first trot in a month.
Also - he carries his tail to the side which you might not spot on the video due to angle. This has now improved significantly in walk but is still present in trot.

The video shows him one month post severe attack of azoturia but the issue I am thinking of has been there before.

Thank you for looking!
 
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hiya

I don't ift the description of people you are asking advice from.

But I wonder if there is something on front right ??

But I have watched several horses lately and thought exactly the same thing so maybe I am just paranoid or seeing something that isn't there lol
 
It looks like it could be more shoulder than anything lower down to me. I could be completely wrong though. Also would say the right shulder
 
MiCsarah said:
It looks like it could be more shoulder than anything lower down to me. I could be completely wrong though. Also would say the right shulder
Click to expand...

That is what it looks like, however my horses physio said 99% of what looks like shoulder problems is in the foot
 
I'd say he doesn't look right in his back end (I've not read his blog or know any history or anything, so a fresh pair of eyes so to speak) by no means an expert but personally just from a glance of the video I think he looks rather stiff behind and around is pelvis? which could stem from a number of areas in the hind leg and therefore have a knock on effect with his back and shortening of the stride in front, does his gait change from day to day depending on how he's being worked?
 
To those of you who say front end: yes, he has navicular changes in both front feet. However, his front end lameness has improved beyond our expectations after barefoot rehab. The lunging arena is slanted so he is moving with one pair of legs higher than the other which doesn't help with balance evaluation.

Kenzo - this is what I am looking into. I think it's the hind end that is most problematic...right hind and SI region especially.
Question is, could this be worked on via straightness training or has it gone too far...

After thousands of pounds already spent on therapy for him (vets love him and like to give us nice expensive drugs to pump into him....) and exhausting the insurance, the full body scan, scintigraphy etc are not very likely :-/
 
I'm not an expert at all, but all I can say is that I didn't see any headbobbing, but the front legs looked kind of restricted in their reach, so I'd wonder if there was a bilateral front limb lameness.

On the left rein, he stretches his nose down way too much to be "normal" IMHO. The only time I'd seen that with one of my gang was with a mare who turned out to have degenerative suspensory ligament disease, most apparent in her hind legs, and it seemed to be her way of taking strain off the hind limbs. So whatever's going on, I'd suggest that there must be something in the back end to cause the horse to feel the need to stretch down so dramatically.

Interesting how differently he moves on left and right rein. He really looked to be falling in on the right rein and taking his head as far to the outside as he could manage. Whether that is down to general onesidedness, I wouldn't know. But if it's something relatively new, then maybe he's trying to protect the offhind by avoiding stepping it actively under the body in a correct bend?

Tricky one, I reckon. Sorry!

Sarah
 
Oh, I forgot to say...

.... what's he like when he's just standing at ease? That can be quite enlightening, as horses are so good at masking stuff when they are moving, but when they are standing they tend to give away a bit more about how they are really feeling.

Sarah
 
I know you have exhausted nearly every diagnoisis in the book but have you ever had the hind suspensories blocked out? Just wondering as the whole moving wide behind thing was what our boy did before he was diagnoised.
 
flintfootfilly said:
I'm not an expert at all, but all I can say is that I didn't see any headbobbing, but the front legs looked kind of restricted in their reach, so I'd wonder if there was a bilateral front limb lameness.

On the left rein, he stretches his nose down way too much to be "normal" IMHO. The only time I'd seen that with one of my gang was with a mare who turned out to have degenerative suspensory ligament disease, most apparent in her hind legs, and it seemed to be her way of taking strain off the hind limbs. So whatever's going on, I'd suggest that there must be something in the back end to cause the horse to feel the need to stretch down so dramatically.

Interesting how differently he moves on left and right rein. He really looked to be falling in on the right rein and taking his head as far to the outside as he could manage. Whether that is down to general onesidedness, I wouldn't know. But if it's something relatively new, then maybe he's trying to protect the offhind by avoiding stepping it actively under the body in a correct bend?

Tricky one, I reckon. Sorry!

Sarah
Click to expand...

Thank you! This is the sort of direction I am trying to look into so your reply is VERY interesting. We have questioned his "stretches" before...his rehab is an ongoing struggle for vets and physios who have seen him. The stretching was advised initially by a vet who suspected SI strain so I lunged him in chambon. After a short while he picked up this way of going on the lunge without it and will do it voluntarily on both reins (he will do it on the right rein too but as he is only recovering from azoturia I trotted him for just a couple of minutes.

Another thing he does is snatching the hind legs up when asked to pick his feet up - only on first attempt and will always give you the foot. This also makes me think there is something odd going on either in the hocks or stifles.
 
Another vote for tightness behind - pelvis or loin. He looks tight there in the trot, but in the walk he looks a little like he's waddling (which might be partially down to the slight slope you mentioned in the arena).

My boy needs regular tweaking in this area and since he's just coming back into work after a month stood in his stable, he is also tight behind. Not sure about the reaching/stretching down, though - could just be that he's needing to give that nuchal ligament a good stretch b/c of the tightness?

Hope that helps.

P
 
charlie76 said:
I know you have exhausted nearly every diagnoisis in the book but have you ever had the hind suspensories blocked out? Just wondering as the whole moving wide behind thing was what our boy did before he was diagnoised.
Click to expand...

Nope we haven't...reluctant to have him pin with needles again but definitely something no vet has yet looked into :-/
Was also thinking hocks/stifles but that could be due to suspensories, couldn't it? Especially the SI strain as well...
 
Our vet said that our horses SI injury was a direct result of the PSD. We had been treating the result rather than the cause. He def had the 'wetting the pants' action behind. Another tell tail sign is swinging the hind leg out when on the lunge- does he do this?
The other thing ours did which I see Kingsley does is pushing the hind leg out behind him in the walk.
We also, like you had a horrid canter and a reluctance to work to a contact in trot.
 
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PolarSkye said:
Another vote for tightness behind - pelvis or loin. He looks tight there in the trot, but in the walk he looks a little like he's waddling (which might be partially down to the slight slope you mentioned in the arena).

My boy needs regular tweaking in this area and since he's just coming back into work after a month stood in his stable, he is also tight behind. Not sure about the reaching/stretching down, though - could just be that he's needing to give that nuchal ligament a good stretch b/c of the tightness?

Hope that helps.

P
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Thank you - his movement is very inconsistent, sometimes very loose "water bed" like feeling under saddle, then longitudinally tense and rigid.
He had EBW after the video was made and his muscles are free from tension/soreness - the best they have been in 2 years of his unsoundness. On the right side there was some minor tightness but nothing like it used to be.
Pelvis is definitely my concern though...
 
charlie76 said:
Our vet said that our horses SI injury was a direct result of the PSD. We had been treating the result rather than the cause. He def had the 'wetting the pants' action behind. Another tell tail sign is swinging the hind leg out when on the lunge- does he do this?
The other thing ours did which I see Kingsley does is pushing the hind leg out behind him in the walk.
We also, like you had a horrid canter and a reluctance to work to a contact in trot.
Click to expand...

A bit of box ticking as he matches all you mentioned. The only thing is the hind leg outward swing can be due to crookedness (exaggerated left bend causing right hind leg throw) BUT the crookedness might be due to discomfort in that area.

He doesn't move as wide behind as he used to though, here is a video from behind before azoturia:

http://youtu.be/xTtfINJgQ5M

Either way, might be idea to block the suspensories :-/
 
flintfootfilly said:
Oh, I forgot to say...

.... what's he like when he's just standing at ease? That can be quite enlightening, as horses are so good at masking stuff when they are moving, but when they are standing they tend to give away a bit more about how they are really feeling.

Sarah
Click to expand...

His standing at ease is as inconsistent as the rest...but is way better than a year ago. He has been improving steadily since barefoot rehab but the hind end is worrying me.
 
viola said:
Thank you! This is the sort of direction I am trying to look into so your reply is VERY interesting. We have questioned his "stretches" before...his rehab is an ongoing struggle for vets and physios who have seen him. The stretching was advised initially by a vet who suspected SI strain so I lunged him in chambon. After a short while he picked up this way of going on the lunge without it and will do it voluntarily on both reins (he will do it on the right rein too but as he is only recovering from azoturia I trotted him for just a couple of minutes.

Another thing he does is snatching the hind legs up when asked to pick his feet up - only on first attempt and will always give you the foot. This also makes me think there is something odd going on either in the hocks or stifles.
Click to expand...

Have you looked into EPSM especially as you have noticed some difference in gait since the azortoria episode (which presumably means altered diet)

The hind end snatching is quite indicative of this so is the odd gait

My old horse also used to stretch down like this on the lunge and he had EPSM diagnosed with a muscle biopsy which is the only way to do it

http://www.ruralheritage.com/vet_clinic/epsm.htm
 
Hi just watched the video, have you had a chiropractor out too? He mimics the action of my arab who has an uneven pelvis (not sure how it was caused yet). Basically his pelvis locks upright on his left side and he's altered his gait to cope with it - he drags the left leg through (same as yours) keeping it very straight then he swings his right leg out and round to protect his left leg (also seen in your video). My horse has chiro every 4 weeks where she frees the pelvis and gets it rotating again but his action does not improve (unknown how long he has had the issue but assuming lengthy). When ridden I can feel him dip to the right in trot, do you find yourself not quite secure in one stirrup? Not saying this is your boys issue but he definitely mimics my boy (will try and get a video for you). No vets picked up on the issue except for one at an endurance event (other event vets never noticed!). Physio's didnt pick up on it either but the chiro was looking specifically for it after the event vet diagnosed him. Afraid there is no quick fix if you do find thats the problem but movement and diet play a huge role. Well done on the barefoot rehab it will benefit no end, keep at it :) what area are you in? If in my chiro's area I can give you details to try? x
 
forgot to add aswell that if it is a pelvis problem it will cause stiffness in other areas - withers, neck, often fetlock on fore legs due to having to compensate for the change in action etc. Hope this helps, know how frustrating it all is :)
 
soulfull said:
Have you looked into EPSM especially as you have noticed some difference in gait since the azortoria episode (which presumably means altered diet)

The hind end snatching is quite indicative of this so is the odd gait

My old horse also used to stretch down like this on the lunge and he had EPSM diagnosed with a muscle biopsy which is the only way to do it

http://www.ruralheritage.com/vet_clinic/epsm.htm
Click to expand...

Hmm no we haven't looked into that, will read the article.
Azoturia was heat related (it was over 30C and he was at livery in a paddock with no water - long story) and there were no changes to the diet or exercise routine (he was in walk work on the walker)
 
jaye1780 said:
Hi just watched the video, have you had a chiropractor out too? He mimics the action of my arab who has an uneven pelvis (not sure how it was caused yet). Basically his pelvis locks upright on his left side and he's altered his gait to cope with it - he drags the left leg through (same as yours) keeping it very straight then he swings his right leg out and round to protect his left leg (also seen in your video). My horse has chiro every 4 weeks where she frees the pelvis and gets it rotating again but his action does not improve (unknown how long he has had the issue but assuming lengthy). When ridden I can feel him dip to the right in trot, do you find yourself not quite secure in one stirrup? Not saying this is your boys issue but he definitely mimics my boy (will try and get a video for you). No vets picked up on the issue except for one at an endurance event (other event vets never noticed!). Physio's didnt pick up on it either but the chiro was looking specifically for it after the event vet diagnosed him. Afraid there is no quick fix if you do find thats the problem but movement and diet play a huge role. Well done on the barefoot rehab it will benefit no end, keep at it :) what area are you in? If in my chiro's area I can give you details to try? x
Click to expand...

Interesting! Horse is near Chalfont St Giles, does your Chiro do that area? Would be great to have someone recommend as most here do small animals.
I think a lot of his problems are due to crookedness but need to find the route to the crooked way of going. He has regular physio but not chiro.
Would be interesting to see your boy's video too :)
 
sorry she doesnt do that area but will ask if she can recommend someone :) Definitely worth a go see if they can rule anything out or diagnose the issue. Will get a video for you either this afternoon or in the morning, will be trotting up or loose in the paddock as im not allowed to lunge/school him yet (hacking on a loose rein and tight turns in hand are all he can do for now). Just a thought if you turn him on a tight circle in hand does he cross his back legs through? If there is a pelvis issue they will usually try to pivot round without moving the legs through, when my boys is freed off he will cross through, when its stuck he pivots round. Can you video him doing it if you think he isnt crossing through? Would be happy to send your videos on to my chiro too see if she can offer any help from them :)
 
jaye1780 said:
sorry she doesnt do that area but will ask if she can recommend someone :) Definitely worth a go see if they can rule anything out or diagnose the issue. Will get a video for you either this afternoon or in the morning, will be trotting up or loose in the paddock as im not allowed to lunge/school him yet (hacking on a loose rein and tight turns in hand are all he can do for now). Just a thought if you turn him on a tight circle in hand does he cross his back legs through? If there is a pelvis issue they will usually try to pivot round without moving the legs through, when my boys is freed off he will cross through, when its stuck he pivots round. Can you video him doing it if you think he isnt crossing through? Would be happy to send your videos on to my chiro too see if she can offer any help from them :)
Click to expand...

That would be lovely thank you :)

He can cross his legs no problem when asked for turn on the forehand in-hand but he DOES pivot many a times when being turned (not always but he does). Hmmm
Will look forward to watching your video!
 
Thats interesting, try and get a video for me to pass on of that too. will pm you when got the video for you so you dont have to keep checking lol :) Hope it will help x
 
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