viola
Well-Known Member
Thank you!
Slow motion video for lameness geeks
- Thread starter viola
- Start date
Thank you!
vicky_sut
Well-Known Member
Nothing really to add other than I have been bringing my barefoot navic girl back into work and on the lunge she keeps 'hoovering' the floor with her nose when trotting. Its in a sand school and to start with as she is just lunged in a head collar I thought it was just because she wanted to roll but now I am thinking it could be a problem. She is also rather wonky.
viola
Well-Known Member
Yes I think the round stretch is definitely good but this kind of stretch is not exactly looking beneficial to me. Might be wrong of course.
In his case, he was doing this while shod too.
jaye1780
Well-Known Member
When you're riding do you feel like you are pushing down into your right stirrup a little more to straighten yourself up even though it may feel shorter than your left? It looks VERY slight but i can see a different in your seat and shoulders. I could be completely wrong on that it could be the video so if you havent noticed it dont try to make it an issue, dont want to make you parnoid
Can anyone else see it? I have watched vid's 1 & 2 about 10 times now to pick it out lol x
viola
Well-Known Member
When you're riding do you feel like you are pushing down into your right stirrup a little more to straighten yourself up even though it may feel shorter than your left? It looks VERY slight but i can see a different in your seat and shoulders. I could be completely wrong on that it could be the video so if you havent noticed it dont try to make it an issue, dont want to make you parnoid
No worries - yes and no, he is very inconsistent so it's more like rider has to adjust all the time to stay centred. This is to mean - every stride. I have a torn cruciate ligament in my right knee though and don't use my right side as well as I should (also chronic right shoulder pain etc) so it could just be me sitting as you described. Before someone says the horse matches my crookedness - he is like that to other people who have ridden him and he has barely been ridden in the arena in the last 2 years. He does roadwork in walk. A year ago it felt like sliding non stop to the right so it's a substantial improvement but issue still there.
soulfull
Well-Known Member
A year ago it felt like sliding non stop to the right so it's a substantial improvement but issue still there.
hmmm this is another thing my old horse with EPSM used to do he would also bump you so that you were on the incorrect diagonal in rising trot on the one rein
viola
Well-Known Member
Well, he does that to my friend I co-own this horse with...
Does your horse braces the back when asked for a trot?
soulfull
Well-Known Member
not sure what you mean by brace, but when it would sometimes feel like he was sorting his legs out at the back or he would sort of hop.
A quick history of what i can remember, it is when I have read things that it often reminds me 'oh yeah'
he would pick up one hind much better and higher than the other.
Some days he would be fine and jumped great too, others he seemed to lack energy and would refuse/run out more
It started as reluctance to canter on one rein. he would also 'hop' into canter and sometimes in trot. at its worst he could suddenly 'hop' in the middle of trotting.
Then it got that he was reluctant to canter at all, I was wearing spurs to make him go, once pulled up he would stand and seem like he was shattered
When we found out and started the diet he obviously improved and it was then more that he couldn't work in an outline it was too much hard work on his muscles
he also found deep surfaces much harder to work on
Eventually it got so bad he started to lose muscle on his back end and then his topline in general
if I remember any thing else significant I will let you know........... if I forget to follow your progress and can help in anyway do pm me (I have a brain like a sieve)
Last edited:
viola
Well-Known Member
How sad 
Is it the horse in your signature? Has he gotten better or degenerated slowly despite the dietary changes?
I read the articles - it's so hard to say because so many things can contribute to certain behaviours. I must say though, he ticks many boxes.
By bracing the back I mean the sudden hollowness upon first trot step whereas the work in walk was very good and supple. It almost feels like he needs to go rigid in the back and neck to be able to trot. This has improved but I haven't ridden him in trot since June; seeing him on the lunge I have a feeling we are back to square one.
I never have forwardness problem with him. On the contrary, he is always very onwards bound and runs everywhere. He carries a lot of weight on his right shoulder and leans on it heavily. As a result he is deeply on the forehand and the trot work under the saddle is very forwards but not in a good way i.e. he is flat and runs.
Downwards transitions are very difficult for him too. I could write an essay on what he can't do easily!
Is it the horse in your signature? Has he gotten better or degenerated slowly despite the dietary changes?I read the articles - it's so hard to say because so many things can contribute to certain behaviours. I must say though, he ticks many boxes.
By bracing the back I mean the sudden hollowness upon first trot step whereas the work in walk was very good and supple. It almost feels like he needs to go rigid in the back and neck to be able to trot. This has improved but I haven't ridden him in trot since June; seeing him on the lunge I have a feeling we are back to square one.
I never have forwardness problem with him. On the contrary, he is always very onwards bound and runs everywhere. He carries a lot of weight on his right shoulder and leans on it heavily. As a result he is deeply on the forehand and the trot work under the saddle is very forwards but not in a good way i.e. he is flat and runs.
Downwards transitions are very difficult for him too. I could write an essay on what he can't do easily!
soulfull
Well-Known Member
How sad
I read the articles - it's so hard to say because so many things can contribute to certain behaviours. I must say though, he ticks many boxes.
By bracing the back I mean the sudden hollowness upon first trot step whereas the work in walk was very good and supple. It almost feels like he needs to go rigid in the back and neck to be able to trot. This has improved but I haven't ridden him in trot since June; seeing him on the lunge I have a feeling we are back to square one.
I never have forwardness problem with him. On the contrary, he is always very onwards bound and runs everywhere. He carries a lot of weight on his right shoulder and leans on it heavily. As a result he is deeply on the forehand and the trot work under the saddle is very forwards but not in a good way i.e. he is flat and runs.
Downwards transitions are very difficult for him too. I could write an essay on what he can't do easily!
no it was my old horse, the one in my sig is my new boy (well not new any more had him 18 months) I had to retire my old lad in the end he was only 13
what you describe is not the same. But like everything else they are all different, some may run away from the muscle pain
he did work lovely in walk and as you say seem very supple used to get 8/9's for free walk.
also was heavily on his forehand on days when he did go forward and no amount of schooling helped. he was a big lad and could make you do things his way.
You could just try the diet and see what happens or have the muscle biopsy done, I think it costs less than £500
Originally all the vets said it was no way an EPSM type of thing as his bloods were normal and he had never got bad enough to tie up. After showing my vet the rural heritage stuff he was keen to do the biopsy
Problem is there are several different types of myopathy now so varying symptoms. They all benefit from the same diet though
I used to feed my lad rapeseed oil built it up to 1/2 a ltr a day
had to put sugar free apple squash in so it tasted nice lolvit E and selenium supplement is also essential
low starch diet, which is easier said than done as so many feeds give the impression of low starch but either don't actually say on the bag, then when you inquire they have a massive 20%
I believe things have improved and there are more things on the market now
viola
Well-Known Member
Well I hope Kingsley doesn't have the EPSM on top of everything else. I don't know whether to count him tying up into it all as it was a combination of avoidable factors (vet diagnosed tying up through overheating and electrolytes imbalance as he was left in a paddock without access to water in very high temp). He can of course be more susceptible to tying up in the first place if there is any form of EPSM going on :-/
happy_talk
Well-Known Member
hi- i don;t know the history so fresh pair of eyes. my concerns have been raised before- 1- the head to the outside of the circle, more on right rein, but also on left.
2- the trotting with the nose on the floor- my mare did this and was diagnosed with bone spavin (so hocks again), so definitely an evasion to limit weight on hind legs
3- back end looks very tight- the hocks barely bend at all. I think i would be thinking hocks
2- the trotting with the nose on the floor- my mare did this and was diagnosed with bone spavin (so hocks again), so definitely an evasion to limit weight on hind legs
3- back end looks very tight- the hocks barely bend at all. I think i would be thinking hocks
viola
Well-Known Member
Thank you happy_talk I too find his "hoovering" a bit of a clever way of avoiding self carriage and I don't think I have ever seen a horse who would do it for such long periods (he can stay like that for 10 or more rounds on a lunge cavesson only)
Tallulah
Member
Ok, Just watched the video and will jot down my immediate thoughts knowing none of his history.....
The overall picture is of a horse who has become 'discombobulated' so his body is not working in a bio-mechanically efficient way. They are such clever creatures and will try and find a solution to problems by rearranging their bodies around the issues that are thrown at them.
He looks as though he has made so many adjustments and changes to acommodate various issues that he has 'forgotton' how his body was designed to be used. ( Of course he may also have come in to the world with some level of crookedness or tension or done something to himelf as a foal or a youngster).
Posturally he looks to me as though he doesn't articulate his hind joints in a way that propells him forward but rather he uses his hind legs in a rather ' prop' like fashion which results in his hind end popping up each stride ( rather than lowering and lengthening his sacral area he holds it tight which means that the joints through his hind legs do not appear to open and close and although he trys hard to bring his hind legs underneath his body he does so without flexing them. This, in effect pops his rump high and he then holds his whole ribcage very rigid which then has an effect on his shoulder girdle and sternum area which looks pushed forwards and down therefore dumping him on his forehand. I am aware that there is the crookedness issue too but I guess one has to take a step at a time! and it may be that until he is able to use his body in a more helpful way the crookedness won't improve He looks like such trier and as though he has just got lost in his body and how he needs to use it to best help himself.
The overall picture is of a horse who has become 'discombobulated' so his body is not working in a bio-mechanically efficient way. They are such clever creatures and will try and find a solution to problems by rearranging their bodies around the issues that are thrown at them.
He looks as though he has made so many adjustments and changes to acommodate various issues that he has 'forgotton' how his body was designed to be used. ( Of course he may also have come in to the world with some level of crookedness or tension or done something to himelf as a foal or a youngster).
Posturally he looks to me as though he doesn't articulate his hind joints in a way that propells him forward but rather he uses his hind legs in a rather ' prop' like fashion which results in his hind end popping up each stride ( rather than lowering and lengthening his sacral area he holds it tight which means that the joints through his hind legs do not appear to open and close and although he trys hard to bring his hind legs underneath his body he does so without flexing them. This, in effect pops his rump high and he then holds his whole ribcage very rigid which then has an effect on his shoulder girdle and sternum area which looks pushed forwards and down therefore dumping him on his forehand. I am aware that there is the crookedness issue too but I guess one has to take a step at a time! and it may be that until he is able to use his body in a more helpful way the crookedness won't improve He looks like such trier and as though he has just got lost in his body and how he needs to use it to best help himself.
happy_talk
Well-Known Member
viola- yes, my mare is very good at lunging in outline and stretching down easily with minimal gadgets, but it went too far like yours. she would hoover for many circuits and even managed it in canter. definitely a hind end evasion- but what part I wouldn;t like to say. her lameness was intermittent as it was bilateral so needed one leg to be worse to show, but she was crooked through body and stiff in movement. I'll read back on the history if i get time. have hock flexion tests been done?
viola
Well-Known Member
This is pretty much what Anna Johnson said (the physio). The way he moves on this video here is so much better than what he used himself like a year ago - he was unable to trot on the circle AT ALL. This is why I am hoping we are on the rehab right track now but at the same time, the hind end worries me.
You described him really well though! This is exactly how he feels to ride.
viola
Well-Known Member
Yes they were and several times with no negative comment. I might ask his current vet who knows very little of how he was 2 years ago to have a good look (we moved to a different area and she got to know him when he tied up). It would be about the 7th vet we ask!
Tallulah
Member
Not sure who you may have tried from a postural perspective but I have someone work with my horses who I have seen initiate some pretty amazing changes. I m happy to pm you with contact details if you are interested. Good luck with him!
viola
Well-Known Member
Yes please! I will PM you too.
jaye1780
Well-Known Member
Hi sorry I havent got back to you yet, I got a video but it isnt very good so going to get you another over the weekend doing a few mins on the lunge for a direct comparison, can only literally be a few mins though as he cant really do it, he will look worse than yours too as lame on a circle in trot still x
La Fiaba
Well-Known Member
Hi, sorry I don't know the lameness history history but we have a mare who moves similarly (but not as bad as Kingsley), has tied up twice this year and also doesn't like to pick up hind feet. We now have her on the EPSM diet and she has picked up a little energy wise however still moves in that very 'stiff behind' way, vet has said it's the hocks and looking at your videos it does look as if he is sore in the hocks. Really hope you find a solution as he looks very sore poor boy
viola
Well-Known Member
Hi, sorry I don't know the lameness history history but we have a mare who moves similarly (but not as bad as Kingsley), has tied up twice this year and also doesn't like to pick up hind feet. We now have her on the EPSM diet and she has picked up a little energy wise however still moves in that very 'stiff behind' way, vet has said it's the hocks and looking at your videos it does look as if he is sore in the hocks. Really hope you find a solution as he looks very sore poor boy
I will definitely discuss this with the vet at length when I see her next but from short conversation I already had it doesn't look like this is what he has. We shall see.
He had his first proper groundwork session today and I am really pleased with the result. Problem is, we don't know if he had had a bad injury before we got him and then became dysfunctional in his way of going. I know for a fact he was ridden in draw reins a lot and with his problems this must have caused a lot of discomfort.
I am about to upload the groundwork video from today to my blog (link above my signature) - with just a few exercises he stopped dragging his right toe and took more weight onto his right hind leg.
I might of course be wrong but I really don't think he is sore. He was on decent amount of bute as well as nerve blocks (when he had full lameness work up) in the past and his movement pattern did not change. His hocks moved in the same way.
I think he does get back sore though which is why we won't ride him now until he can organize his body better (if he gets there).
he tries so hard though and I really hope we get there in the end.
viola
Well-Known Member
jaye1780
Well-Known Member
sent you a pm with 2 video links, will try and get another but hopefully you can see the action I mean on these. The loose video shows it clearer and the trotting up when moving away from the camera, he is much straighter on the way back! How have you been getting on?? Did you find a chiro to try? x
viola
Well-Known Member
Thank you! Will have a look in a minute
I am awaiting a reply with dates available from an osteopath but meanwhile I am getting on with my Plan A which is to involve classical in-hand dressage training to re-train the way he uses his body.Here is a video from the first session and I could already see a slight improvement!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jK1r4f1xKdc