snatching at the grass while leading.

LadyRascasse said:
seriously?!? a tap with a whip that doesn't hurt me when I do it is 'borderline threat of violence' and funnily enough I used it Friday and yesterday he walked in and out perfectly as he knew what was expected of him.

I was once told (and I have never forgotten this) a horse is asked to work one or two hours a day, for that time they should behave the other 20 odd hours of the day is there time, you pay a lot to keep them and work many more hours to do so. You aren't asking a lot of them. But they have to be taught what is right and what isn't other wise they will never learn, being dragged by half a ton isn't fun and can seriously injury someone.

fwiw I was smacked as a child and don't live in fear of my parents as I now know how I should behave as I was taught!!
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So you used it twice.... perhaps it's not as effective as some other methods. It's a strange world horsemanship, were we working with other animals we'd be prosecuted by the authorities for whipping a dog or cat, yet in equestrianism it's an accepted practice.

Horses of course have no understanding of how much it costs to keep them, nor can they reason that they have to behave in an acceptable manner for so many hours in return for their keep... their mental processes simply don't work like that, so whoever told you that was speaking from an entirely human point of view.

When you were smacked as a child, you were still a human being with human powers of reasoning... you knew, or it was explained to you, what the punishment was for. Even those 'stars' who are currently on trial for 'abuses' many years ago (whether they are guilty or innocent is not my point here) know why they are on trial, even though the allegations concern incidents that happened ages ago... Horses do not have the luxury of associating puishment with reasons that happened in the past, which is why for it to be effective it must be well timed... and sadly, timing is something a lot of humans simply don't have.
 
Urban Horse said:
So you used it twice.... perhaps it's not as effective as some other methods. It's a strange world horsemanship, were we working with other animals we'd be prosecuted by the authorities for whipping a dog or cat, yet in equestrianism it's an accepted practice.
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Still think you miss my point, at NO POINT was my horse WHIPPED!!!! It was a very little tap, and was more effective than the alternative of letting him scoff a bucket of food because he decided he wanted it, he is half a ton of horse. I DO NOT advocate BEATING horses but I have no objection to correcting one. All the other animals we generally deal with as pets aren't as big as a horse. Manners are important and even one of the top natural horsewomen in the world doesn't advocate "snacking" as horses can't differentiate between when its acceptable and when it's not. You might stop to let someone past does that mean because you have stopped that behavior is acceptable. To me pulling me to food is not acceptable at any point, I don't allow it as if god forbid I were unable to do them and someone else had to I want to know they are safe and not being dragged around because of behaviors and habits I have allowed. Which after all is the question the OP asked.
 
Brightbay said:
No, in fact the way you determine whether something has been rewarding is whether the behaviour is repeated, not whether you (the trainer) determine that something *should* be a reward. You could offer me the reward of an all inclusive holiday on a cruise ship as a reward for performing particularly well at work, and you would see me working hard to make sure I didn't have to go ;)
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You would find me being very naughty indeed if the reward was a cruise! That's assuming I understood what was considered naughty.

If I was smacked/hit for doing something I really, really wanted too I would be cross, resentful or even fearful.

ps. If I was going to put my horse in a position where the lure of grass was going to be so great his training may not resist it, I would fix a full nose net or similar to his head collar first. I know some hate the idea but I like it as an aid when things are a bit flaky or unpredictable and there is a chance of things getting out of control.
 
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Just remembered, I once had to lead my gelding through a hay field where the grass was so tall the seed heads brushed his muzzle. Obviously, he took the odd seed head to munch as we went on our way! lol

I don't have the smileys for some reason!
 
I've had to pull my ponies off the grass for the last six weeks for the first time ever. To get to their turnout they have to go down a long track with a willow hedge on one side and a grassy/herby bank the other. Logistics mean that I need to take both of them together, leading one in each hand.

Of course the poor things are looking at the lovely greenery. So, we have a stop on the way for a munch (they are doing a nice job of 'tidying' too). Within a few days there was no excitement or snatching or anything, just 2 pairs of ears flicked at me as if to say 'where today?'. After a few mouthfuls I say 'come on girls' and off we all trundle to the sand school. It's actually rather a nice start to the day, just hanging-out together.

Not saying it will work for anyone else or on other horses.
 
Brightbay said:
.... the horses are ignoring the owners' increasingly frantic attempts to overcome the behaviour..
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A tad melodramatic?

I don't read anyone's reply as suggesting that the owners who would mildly chastise the horse, and I am one, become 'increasingly frantic'.

I don't ever want my horse to eat while I am leading it somewhere. So a training method that relies on allowing it to do so as a reward for leading nicely for a while is, in my opinion, deeply flawed.
 
LadyRascasse said:
Still think you miss my point, at NO POINT was my horse WHIPPED!!!! It was a very little tap, and was more effective than the alternative of letting him scoff a bucket of food because he decided he wanted it, he is half a ton of horse. I DO NOT advocate BEATING horses but I have no objection to correcting one. All the other animals we generally deal with as pets aren't as big as a horse. Manners are important and even one of the top natural horsewomen in the world doesn't advocate "snacking" as horses can't differentiate between when its acceptable and when it's not. You might stop to let someone past does that mean because you have stopped that behavior is acceptable. To me pulling me to food is not acceptable at any point, I don't allow it as if god forbid I were unable to do them and someone else had to I want to know they are safe and not being dragged around because of behaviors and habits I have allowed. Which after all is the question the OP asked.
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It matters not what I think of your use of the whip, and it matters not what you think of the use of the whip... What matters is what your horse feels about it. For its use to be successful, the horse must find it an aversive; but people forget as in all things with horses, each time it is used the horse becomes a little more desensitised to its use, unless that is you have one of the large number of horses that are irationally totally frightened of the thing. But if your horse is scared of it, that rather reflects my statement about getting manners through fear doesn't it?

My mares don't make lunges for grass when being led, they are either given permission to snack, or not... This doesn't confuse horses in the least because it reflects the way that they live in the wild, the herd either stops to eat, or moves past a food source to graze elsewhere... all on the instruction of other (allegedly) higher ranking individuals. The result of working in a way that makes sense to them, and giving them manners and respect is that manners and respect are given freely in return, and knowing that the horse is offering these things without fear makes it so much sweeter.

Thanks for your comments.
 
But Urbanhorse, your way is not the only way of producing sweet horses. I currently have two four year old in training and I have chastised them both for doing things I do not want them to do. In return, they come when they are called, and whenever they are with me in a free space (they live in a barn when in), they follow me everywhere.

It doesn't worry me how you choose to train your horses. But what does bother me is your complete denial that other people's methods work, work quickly, and produce horses at least as sweet and happy as your own.
 
interesting discussion.
I'm not going to say anything about different methodologies and their underlying philosophies - diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks applies here methinks.

However, I'm surprised that no mention has been made of attentiveness (by the human). Whenever I am giving all my attention to the horse and the task in hand they respond by giving their attention back to me and what I am asking - and they have 'manners'. If I'm thinking of other things or answering the phone or nattering then the horses 'do their own thing' too - Funny that.........
 
catkin said:
interesting discussion.
I'm not going to say anything about different methodologies and their underlying philosophies - diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks applies here methinks.

However, I'm surprised that no mention has been made of attentiveness (by the human). Whenever I am giving all my attention to the horse and the task in hand they respond by giving their attention back to me and what I am asking - and they have 'manners'. If I'm thinking of other things or answering the phone or nattering then the horses 'do their own thing' too - Funny that.........
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I find this is true as well if the motivation is stronger than the training/learning.

Not having trained a horse to eat grass when allowed and stop when asked is going to lead to potential problems if the horse is ever to be hand grazed when first allowed out when box rested for injury for eg.
Also, a hungry horse (in his eyes) is going to be much more motivated to try and eat grass when being led or ridden.

Also even if a horse is fat it doesn't mean he isn't hungry if his hay ran out at 4 am for eg.
 
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amandap said:
Not having trained a horse to eat grass when allowed and stop when asked is going to lead to potential problems if the horse is ever to be hand grazed when first allowed out when box rested for injury for injury
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Amanda, I have never trained a horse to eat grass when allowed. All my horses are trained not to attempt to eat grass when being led somewhere.

And never once has this given me an issue with hand grazing horses which cannot be turned out, and I can't understand why it would. You lead them to grass, stop, and if they are hungry or tempted enough, they will eat. They don't need training to eat :)

An I misunderstanding something here?
 
I was thinking of those that grab at grass and drag the person to grass. I did not say train to eat (or rather didn't mean that), I said/meant train that eating is allowed (on taught/learned cue) when being led. They learn that without a cue to eat they don't pull or grab or eat.
There are various ways to skin a cat as they say but once there is a problem the teaching to eat and stop eating on cue is one tool that works. This can be done successfully using food treats to reward the behaviour you want and teach a cue/s believe it or not. Even I have done similar with one horse!

ps. It helps if your horse has learned to lead properly and consistently in the first place.
 
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It's called manners; setting boundaries with consistent reactions and expectations.

There is far too much faffing and pussy footing around rude ignorant horses these days.
 
Horses only appear "rude and ignorant" if they haven't been trained/taught properly and consistently by humans or are stressed out for some reason!
 
I like clicker training and stuff, but I don't need to train my horse to be a finely tuned robot only motivated by reward, sometimes I just want her to behave herself because I say so and that means holding the leadrope about a foot down from its clip and just setting my arm so she won't be able to reach the floor if she tries, and the rope being loose if she doesn't. It's the same as if she was tied up short. She still understands when I'm going to let her eat, she's got a brain.
 
Perhaps she has been taught to give to the pressure of the head collar and lead rope?

I thought we were talking about horses that drag people or snatch grass not horses that are already halter trained? I'm obviously on the wrong wave length.
 
cptrayes said:
But Urbanhorse, your way is not the only way of producing sweet horses. I currently have two four year old in training and I have chastised them both for doing things I do not want them to do. In return, they come when they are called, and whenever they are with me in a free space (they live in a barn when in), they follow me everywhere.

It doesn't worry me how you choose to train your horses. But what does bother me is your complete denial that other people's methods work, work quickly, and produce horses at least as sweet and happy as your own.
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I don't want quickly trained horses.. we had an overdose of quickly trained imported cobs in this area a few years back... you might remember the internet postings on all manner of horsey websites... we even had a couple of them at our yard.

I have never denied that other people's methods do work, that would be egotistical in the extreme, something I'm not.... Following two incidents back in the seventies, when I had to hold firstly, a mare fatally injured by a chifney, while she was shot, and secondly at a different yard, another mare that had severely injured someone who entered her box with a whip to 'teach her manners'... guess who was the only one prepared to be with her at the end. Following that I decided that I would never use excessive force on a horse, nor punish a horse that was simply being a horse. What I have done though, is to show people that there are ways to work with horses that don't need these practices, or if they do choose to use them, to at least explain to them the effects and possible drawbacks of what they're doing. The strange thing is that the owners aren't perfect, yet they expect their horses to be.

Sometimes I'm funny, sometimes I'm confrontational, sometimes I'm rude... but I'd prefer that folk took out their anger on me rather than on their horses... If that's wrong, then so be it, wrong I will be.

Just think of me as those annoying lines of small print at the bottom of the ad that legally has to say "Other training methods are available."
 
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amandap said:
Perhaps she has been taught to give to the pressure of the head collar and lead rope?

I thought we were talking about horses that drag people or snatch grass not horses that are already halter trained? I'm obviously on the wrong wave length.
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I'm always on the wrong wavelength... When I was young I thought I was out of step with the world, now I know the world's out of step with me.:-)
 
There is always talk on these kinds of threads about horses being frightened or resentful of physical contact. A horse is taught by physical cues every day, especially when being ridden. They are very physical animals themselves. I once taught a colt to pick up a leg for a treat. I used a schooling whip to tap his knee (I could have used my hand, but I wanted to gauge his reaction and time it properly when administering the treat) his reaction was immediately to pick up his front leg, I said 'pick up' and gave him a treat. It took him about 3 goes for him to get the hang of it and pick up on the verbal command only. Was he fearful? Don't think so he wasn't haltered I did it loose in his paddock. Was it painful - almost certainly not, it was a reaction that I used to my advantage. The cute thing is that when he was turned out with his mare and she wasn't sharing her feed, he would 'ask' her for some by picking up his leg. She of course thought he was nuts. Sometimes we don't give horses enough credit for being intelligent enough not to react through instinct only. I believe they are capable of many emotions which we can't always put down to stress or fear or even just basic instinct (just as we do) and to pigeonhole them in that way is just a bit of human arrogance because none of us know what they are thinking. Is a tap of the whip to gain a horse's attention such a dire thing, my husband might tap me to gain my attention my attention - it doesn't make me fear him.
 
Urban Horse said:
I don't want quickly trained horses.. we had an overdose of quickly trained imported cobs in this area a few years back... you might remember the internet postings on all manner of horsey websites... we even had a couple of them at our yard.

I have never denied that other people's methods do work, that would be egotistical in the extreme, something I'm not.... Following two incidents back in the seventies, when I had to hold firstly, a mare fatally injured by a chifney, while she was shot, and secondly at a different yard, another mare that had severely injured someone who entered her box with a whip to 'teach her manners'... guess who was the only one prepared to be with her at the end. Following that I decided that I would never use excessive force on a horse, nor punish a horse that was simply being a horse. What I have done though, is to show people that there are ways to work with horses that don't need these practices, or if they do choose to use them, to at least explain to them the effects and possible drawbacks of what they're doing. The strange thing is that the owners aren't perfect, yet they expect their horses to be.

Sometimes I'm funny, sometimes I'm confrontational, sometimes I'm rude... but I'd prefer that folk took out their anger on me rather than on their horses... If that's wrong, then so be it, wrong I will be.

Just think of me as those annoying lines of small print at the bottom of the ad that legally has to say "Other training methods are available."
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There you go again UH, assuming any method not yours means abuse. Why you think a chifney has to do with my horses being sweet happy creatures is beyond me :)

Why don't you want horses trained quickly? Do you think horses prefer to take longer to understand what their handlers want? Why does quick, to you, automatically mean 'abusive'?

Why do you seem to suggest that anyone who doesn't use your methods and disagrees with you is taking their anger out on you as a substitute for taking it out on a horse?

You take a prize for arrogance, I'll give you that :D
 
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cptrayes said:
There you go again UH, assuming any method not yours means abuse. Why you think a chifney has to do with my horses being sweet happy creatures is beyond me :)

Why don't you want horses trained quickly? Do you think horses prefer to take longer to understand what their handlers want? Why does quick, to you, automatically mean 'abusive'?

Why do you seem to suggest that anyone who doesn't use your methods and disagrees with you is taking their anger out on you as a substitute for taking it out on a horse?

You take a prize for arrogance, I'll give you that :D
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Thank you for the arrogance award.... I'll treasure it, and keep it polished, do I have to wear a tux when I come to collect it?;-)

I think it was you that that actually raised the subject of others being able to train quicker than I, though how you know this is a mystery to me. As you know, horses are all individuals, some absorb knowledge almost faster than we can teach, others take longer. Quick doesn't mean abusive, but it can mean that some horses don't always learn as much as they should... hence the illustration of the imported Cobs and the number of net postings about them and their sellers.

Human anger is often a problem for horses to deal with. No doubt you've seen people hitting horses after (for example) a bad performance in the ring... I've known average horse owners thrash their horse on returning to the yard because the horse misbehaved in a ride, how is a horse supposed to associate that puishment with something that had happened half an hour before? I've even known someone leave their horse out overnight for puishment for misbehavoiur in the morning.... once again, completely illogical to the animal involved.

As I don't have a 'method' it's impossible for me to 'push' it onto people, nor did I make any connection between your horses and chifneys... But, and we might agree on this (who knows... miracles do happen), in the UK there are very few facilities for anyone entering equestrianism to learn Horsemanship. There are riding schools, but their job is to teach people to ride, not to recognise the horse's problems, both physical and mental. Hence the vast number of posting on horsey internet site concerning basic behavioual problems that owners can't cope with.

Once again, thank you so much for the award, I can't tell; you how much it means to me.:-)))
 
I did not say quicker. I made no comparison.

I fail to see what the endless stories of obvious abuse and/or stupidity you produce every time and one disagrees with you have to do with the discussion of mild chastisement versus no chastisement in the training of a horse.

Recommended wear for collecting your arrogance award is a Lady Gaga meat dress :)
 
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What a load of drivel is being spouted by a few posters on this thread. Let us review the original question - Snatching at grass whilst being led. The answer to this rude behaviour is a quick boot up the gizzard.
 
urbanhorse you do realise that the vast majority of us don't go around beating horses? Which is what the examples you have used are talking about. In my life I have only ever once seen a whip being used excessively and the rider (a child) was dragged off the pony and taken straight home. Otherwise, most riders I know simply carry a whip to back up an aid, one tap and that's enough. Maybe I have completely flukily been surrounded by the only saintly riders in the country my entire life, but I think not. Horsey people are an opinionated bunch and don't tend to stand for abuse when they see it. The people who have suggested carrying a crop said that a short tap on the shoulder to bring attention back to the handler would help. If that is abuse, then there would be more rescue horses than not!
 
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