So a question for debate ..

jhoward

jhoward

Demon exorcist...
Joined
17 July 2007
Messages
16,242
Location
Devon
Visit site
Re the showing thread. And previous dressage threads

If a show horse/pony can go around with it's head on a near perfect line ..

And it's clear in a lot of cases it's not being ridden on to the bit etc by the slack in reins/hand position.

Why does a dressage horse so frequently get over bent/rollkur?
Why isn't it holding its head like a show horse?

How is it a show horse never seems strong yet a dressage horse does?

Why do the show horses not over bend?
 
Total generalisation…The successful show horses I have ridden for others over the years are a push button but fixed ride … mannerly and correct but don’t have the movement over the back that a dressage horse has. The show horse must be able to take any ride judge and give them a mannerly ride but a dressage horse should be an athlete … they are fed differently, usually bred differently and trained differently .

but unless they are Spanish / Portuguese you don’t see many show horses doing a true extension, piaffe or flying change
 
Many show horses are over bent and mostly behind the bit…?
(And stilted through the back compared to dressage horses. That’s by design, no one wants to hunt the next totilas, you’d have a very strong core by the time you got home, the flexibility over the back of these purpose bred horses is incomparable)
 
Show horses are produced in a very particular way. They generally don’t have the range of movement and elasticity of a pure dressage horse, or if they do, they dont get trained to show it.
Now decent show horses can have a good/competitive stab at lower level dressage, but when you get beyond medium when true collection/engagement/thoroughness really starts to play its part, then show horses generally come up short. It’s not a criticism, just different horses for different jobs.
You see the overbent, heavy to hand and other such issues in dressage horses - because the upper level stuff is hard! Getting these highly mobile athletes, strong takes a different type of training/skill to show horse production - and that’s before you open up the judging/what is being rewarded can of worms.

(ETA - and a lot of show horses are nice and light in the hand cos they are just politely sitting behind the contact on a curb bit ….)
 
A good judge does want a show horse to take a contact and look through the bridle. My current RoR held his head in a pretty outline easily but we had to work on engagement and being through and it was initially undoing some of the pretty to get the throughness. A dressage rider schooled him and had lessons mainly dressage and not down to me but one judge said he’d given the best ride they’d for years which still remember. But yes many will be more set but obedient as a different aim.
 
ihatework said:
Now decent show horses can have a good/competitive stab at lower level dressage, but when you get beyond medium when true collection/engagement/thoroughness really starts to play its part, then show horses generally come up short. It’s not a criticism, just different horses for different jobs.
Click to expand...
Absolutely this

Top level show horses are a pleasure to ride and they should be working up into a contact, certainly the ones I’ve been lucky enough to ride round over their back. They should be capable of a decent showing at elementary, but beyond that it’s difficult for them to do both jobs. There isn’t the need for the collection and power in show classes, it’s almost more desirable to have them confidently bounding on for a more comfortable ride.
 
jhoward said:
Re the showing thread. And previous dressage threads

If a show horse/pony can go around with it's head on a near perfect line ..

And it's clear in a lot of cases it's not being ridden on to the bit etc by the slack in reins/hand position.
Click to expand...
I don't think that this is proof that the horse is not ridden on the aids. It's the horse who decides on the amount of contact (as I understand it).

How is it a show horse never seems strong yet a dressage horse does?
Click to expand...

I think this is a great question and I have wondered about it myself. I suspect that ihatework is correct in her answer. Drat. I wish the answer were more complicated, somehow.

ETA: ihatework said: You see the overbent, heavy to hand and other such issues in dressage horses - because the upper level stuff is hard!
Click to expand...
 
ihatework said:
but when you get beyond medium when true collection/engagement/thoroughness really starts to play its part
Click to expand...

VictoriaSponge said:
There isn’t the need for the collection and power in show classes
Click to expand...
On this note, I’ve got a copy of the Observer’s Book of Horses & Ponies from 1958 that mentions hacks were supposed to be able to show a passage in the ring. So have the demands for show horses’ collection reduced over time or was that a dramatically different passage to what we see today in dressage?
 
Years ago I worked with show ponies. They were an absolute delight to ride and handle right from the start.
It must be in the breeding, they were like elegant little aristocrats.
Mostly they went to shows from foals onwards so were pretty bombproof. They were intelligent and knew their job.
The idea was to get them going sweetly.
It's a bit like polo ponies - you could canter across the common riding one and leading eight.
Try that trick with dressage horses 😲😲 *loose horse* 🙃 🤣🤣🤣
 
I have judge ridden show hunters and riding horses. How I want them to go is nothing like what I want in a dressage test. For a start no show horses are truly straight. Nearly always quarters out. I want them light in the hand and off the leg. I would want the feeling to be that I can do a 15m circle with one hand. You have a lot of time showing and a set pattern which is 3 mins long max and essentially 3 gaits and 6 transitions. That is not the same as doing a dressage test in a 20x60m with transitions and collection.
 
I've been lucky enough to have sat on some top level show horses in my time, and to have ridden some modern style dressage horses too.
I would say (making a fairly sweeping generalisation) that it's down to breeding and movement. Modern warmvloods tend to be very forward going and big moving. A lot of that is contained by the rider's hands rather than seat and core (a discussion for another day ) which will lead to a stronger contact hence overbemding etc.
While the modern show horse can have a lot of wb breeding there, they're not looking for the big powerful movement of the dressage horse. The judges want a smooth, comfortable 'happy to ride all day' way of going. Hence it's much easier to produce a pretty outline and a softer ride.
 
LEC said:
I have judge ridden show hunters and riding horses. How I want them to go is nothing like what I want in a dressage test. For a start no show horses are truly straight. Nearly always quarters out. I want them light in the hand and off the leg. I would want the feeling to be that I can do a 15m circle with one hand. You have a lot of time showing and a set pattern which is 3 mins long max and essentially 3 gaits and 6 transitions. That is not the same as doing a dressage test in a 20x60m with transitions and collection.
Click to expand...
Sorry if I am being dim, but why are they nearly always quarters out?
 
My horse when he was doing BD and showing I can remember a judge riding him once and she gave him the aid for canter and he went into counter canter presumably because of how she had asked. That was slight mental note to myself to practice, what the judge might ask as well as what he may need in the dressage arena. Show hacks do individual shows as well and obviously if you’re through to a championship and it’s one where you get the opportunity to do a show then sometimes a bit of a dressage movement comes in useful. I have done walk to canter back to walk then into canter on the other rein in a straight line in a hack championship but you don’t put in anything more dressage into it. The show horse should move off the lightest aid and be a pleasure to sit on.
 
Someone I know is big into showing and has a lovely wee horse she bred. I will admit I thought she looked her best when she was an all rounder doing XC, show jumping etc but they’ve moved onto pure showing where she was told to put more weight on the mare.

She was marked down once because the judge said the horse was too predictable so did everything she was meant to. I suppose that means she was a little too boring?

I must admit I would far rather watch a nice showing round or an easier dressage test ridden well than a complicated test where the rider has to lean back to hold the horse together.
 
spacefaer said:
I've been lucky enough to have sat on some top level show horses in my time, and to have ridden some modern style dressage horses too.
I would say (making a fairly sweeping generalisation) that it's down to breeding and movement. Modern warmvloods tend to be very forward going and big moving. A lot of that is contained by the rider's hands rather than seat and core (a discussion for another day ) which will lead to a stronger contact hence overbemding etc.
While the modern show horse can have a lot of wb breeding there, they're not looking for the big powerful movement of the dressage horse. The judges want a smooth, comfortable 'happy to ride all day' way of going. Hence it's much easier to produce a pretty outline and a softer ride.
Click to expand...
Yes, I would say that this is most of the reason. The horses we most often see overbent in dressage training/tests are a modern stamp of warmblood with long neck, and very elastic/hypermobile movement. Show horses typically do not have that type of physique.

Plus, being fat through the front end makes it much harder to go overbent 😉
 
She was marked down once because the judge said the horse was too predictable so did everything she was meant to. I suppose that means she was a little too boring?


It may have been that the judge meant the horse was anticipating what was asked as they are so used to canter on right rein trot across the diagonal pick up on the other rein and they can anticipate the pick up of left canter. It is definitely a fine balance so they sparkle, but are polite.
 
stangs said:
On this note, I’ve got a copy of the Observer’s Book of Horses & Ponies from 1958 that mentions hacks were supposed to be able to show a passage in the ring. So have the demands for show horses’ collection reduced over time or was that a dramatically different passage to what we see today in dressage?
Click to expand...
Ha! Not that long ago, all ridden classes were expected to perform a proper rein back in their individual shows, too, even the tinies.
 
stangs said:
On this note, I’ve got a copy of the Observer’s Book of Horses & Ponies from 1958 that mentions hacks were supposed to be able to show a passage in the ring. So have the demands for show horses’ collection reduced over time or was that a dramatically different passage to what we see today in dressage?
Click to expand...
There's very little demand of them, or requirements for them to actually show paces off.

I still often wonder why a flying change is never done when changing the rein. (And yes I'm aware some won't be capable etc)
 
TheMule said:
Because show horses are quite ordinary horses doing the equivalent of prelim dressage?
Click to expand...
A successful show horse is no ordinary horse with basic schooling regardless of type/breed or discipline. A top show horse has near to perfect conformation and that correct conformation enables the horse to be balanced and have ease of forward movement.

There is a huge difference between the confo of show horses and dressage horses. Many top dressage horses minus their tack and stood up are cut and shunts.
 
jhoward said:
I still often wonder why a flying change is never done when changing the rein. (And yes I'm aware some won't be capable etc)
Click to expand...
According to my book, hacks were required to show flying changes alongside reinbacks and the passage. So clearly someone decided to dumb down the requirements at some point. Just wondering why.
 
stangs said:
According to my book, hacks were required to show flying changes alongside reinbacks and the passage. So clearly someone decided to dumb down the requirements at some point. Just wondering why.
Click to expand...
c. mid eighties, a well-known, elderly judge (also breeder of some repute) at a decent agricultural show, told the riders what she wanted to see in their shows, including cantered figure of eight and reinback, which was duly done.
Afterwards was informed there had been complaints, that reinback was ‘an advanced dressage movement, and therefore unfair to expect’!
Difficult to say whether she was more surprised or angry, but replied - loudly and with some asperity - ‘any riding horse that cannot reinback is as useless as a car without reverse gear, and dressage horses are no use to anyone outside a schooling paddock, which is the only place their owners ever dare take them. I am judging riding animals, I will see them properly ridden.’
That shut that up, but I was driving her home afterwards and heard plenty about declining standards and knowledge in the horse world.
 
Rein back is still done in individual show hack shows but you should only do it if it’s actually going to enhance it. When you see how badly many horses rein back in the dressage arena with a board on one side to keep them straight you need to know your horse can ring back nicely in the middle of a showground arena before you do it as a bad rein back will be worse than no rein back.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top