I'm Dun
Well-Known Member
And because most horses will naturally go quarters in unless a lot of schooling is done to get them straight.
So a question for debate ..
- Thread starter jhoward
- Start date
And because most horses will naturally go quarters in unless a lot of schooling is done to get them straight.
Exasperated
Well-Known Member
Absolutely, and I think that’s exactly what my judge friend was so cross about - that all ridden horses (well, their riders and instructors, really) should all know how to produce a decent reinback, as part of their education and level of rideability; certainly when they are being shown off to others in public, and any half-decent judge should absolutely expect to have this basic skill demonstrated. But I think it has disappeared from a lot competitors, today.
OH just commented: the only horses he saw reversing (show, earlier this summer) were those refusing to load into their horse boxes, afterwards!
DressageCob
Well-Known Member
For some, not all, they have learnt the neck position that is expected of them. There's many a tale of showing horses tied into position with side reins or baling twine, standing in the stable learning where their head and neck needs to be. They aren't working from behind, they just know that they are expected to carry their necks in an arch.
jhoward
Demon exorcist...
Yes we all know that. It's common knowledge.
But no horse can calculate where its head should be.
DressageCob
Well-Known Member
Ok, no need to be so snippy. I was just providing a response. I.e. it's training. I thought this was a discussion where any thought is welcome, even if it's stating the obvious.
Horses are trained. If they are trained that's where they need to hold themselves, then that's what they do. Some of it is conformation, some of it is bitting and rider aids but it's also training. The little LR ponies have their necks fixed in position despite their little plaited tots bobbing around with loose reins. They are trained. It's like a horse can be trained to stand at a mounting block, lower its head for the bridle to be put on, lie down for someone to get on from the floor like a camel. It doesn't require calculation, it's learnt behaviour.
the OP read like show horses should be complimented for going around in their fixed position, while dressage horses are supposedly incapable. personally I don't think it's something to be celebrated. I guess we disagree.
Lois Lame
Well-Known Member
I think that would make a great discussion one day soon. I look forward to reading it.
ETA: This has been a very interesting thread.
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humblepie
Well-Known Member
Ours were all taught to work through properly and I don’t think they would be alone. As above when I got mine straight off the track, he held his head in a nice pretty position, but we had to actually undo that to get the working through properly.
jhoward
Demon exorcist...
Then I think you have mis read the op.
And the questioning behind it.
tristars
Well-Known Member
This
You can see they are totally different!!!!!
Show horses are not required to do sitting trot with their riders
tristars
Well-Known Member
Somewhere in the darkest past I thought they were called park hacks or hand hacks and could sit nicely collected in canter and be ridden controlled with one hand
The most pictured in my mind memories are of hacks the impression of quality and elegant performance
Whereas a lot of other classes I wouldn't fancy riding they look too heavy and donking
But that's what a hack is pleasure
tristars
Well-Known Member
Any 4 year or newly broken horse that is moving forwards properly can rein back, even a couple of steps, it's just so basic
tristars
Well-Known Member
jhoward
Demon exorcist...
This is some of the debate I've raised whilst pondering and off the back of the other thread about strapping heads down.
Whilst not all of course, but in the showing world it's common, how is it these horses are not going behind the vertical/over bending?
Where of course in the dressage world it is common to see even if only for a few seconds.
humblepie
Well-Known Member
Yes, there was the covert hack which was the horse ridden to the hunt meet before you got on your hunter and the park hack to show off how wealthy you were that you had the most gorgeous elegant horse that you could ride one handed whilst taking your lady’s hand with the other hand and just basically looking absolutely amazing.
I was trying to find a video of a show hack I know doing a championship but I can’t find it unfortunately but in doing so I came across an interview in the horse and hound where a judge when asked what a show hack’s job outside the ring should be said that it is to go for a ride and you just sit on the horse and takes you in a lovely rhythm.
It’s got to be the aim with any horse I would say.
I was trying to find a video of a show hack I know doing a championship but I can’t find it unfortunately but in doing so I came across an interview in the horse and hound where a judge when asked what a show hack’s job outside the ring should be said that it is to go for a ride and you just sit on the horse and takes you in a lovely rhythm.
It’s got to be the aim with any horse I would say.
Blanche
Well-Known Member
Having worked with ridden show horses with a few different people I have NEVER seen anyone tie their horses head down. I have been on many different yards and never seen a show horse/ pony with its head tied down, nor have I ever heard it recommended. I am not saying it doesn’t happen but it is not common. Now if we are talking about showjumping yards or eventing yards I could tell some tales of things I have seen . Unfortunately I can’t share them here as the thread would be shut down immediately.
I used to ride out my friends Grand Prix horses on long hacks and I have to say I would rather hack out a show horse every time. Show horses are by and large conformationally correct. This enables them to hold themselves together without huge input from the rider. They don’t need their heads tied down to achieve this.
tristars
Well-Known Member
Well I suppose if you had your head tied down for hours it would be a relief not to go overbent when ridden
Just being facetious
Over reliance on holding the horse up with the bridle whilst riding a horse without the natural ability to hold itself up because its natural point of balance is in the wrong place, ie., to far forwards for higher dressage
tristars
Well-Known Member
Yes I was thinking about the confo of show horses, also the breeding more blood of the old English and welsh lines perhaps?
millitiger
Well-Known Member
You're comparing beauty queens to gymnasts, they're expected to do completely different things and give completely different rides and pictures.
I would expect horses and riders working at the maximum level and output to make more mistakes (in frame) than horses 'just' doing w/t/c and a side of lengthened strides.
I think if you compared show horses to horses at BD Nationals at Novice level, it's more of a comparison.
However, I would also say I've watched a lot of HOYs this week and I have seen a few BTV and I would say most of them are working quarters in, to some degree. The camera angle is very telling on the go round!
I would expect horses and riders working at the maximum level and output to make more mistakes (in frame) than horses 'just' doing w/t/c and a side of lengthened strides.
I think if you compared show horses to horses at BD Nationals at Novice level, it's more of a comparison.
However, I would also say I've watched a lot of HOYs this week and I have seen a few BTV and I would say most of them are working quarters in, to some degree. The camera angle is very telling on the go round!
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Especially if judge ridden. Although I'd say it's still less about conformation, it should be, and more about way of moving, balance, posture.
It absolutely shouldn't be, it should be, as others have said, the most beautiful feeling of lightness, harmony and manoeuverability. Modern dressage has fallen so far with pretty much all horses bein ridden in some degree of compression (mostly of the neck, inevitable if your main approach is to drive the hind legs under into the hand).
I'm not sure I got the real intent/context of this part of the conversation, a horse absolutely knows where its head should be in order to maintain optimal balance, unless it has been trained otherwise which, to be fair, most have. The head and neck position should always be the result of the training and in no way part of the means of training.
blitznbobs
Well-Known Member
I couldn’t disagree more… sitting on a wb that is between hand and leg give you the feel of flying and it’s more than amazing - it is comparable to flying down a mountain on skis (if you are good at skiing that is) but not uncomfortable … sitting in a show horse is comfortable - like an arm chair… you could do it all day but it’s a bit boring imo although I can understand why people might like it.
Sitting on a big warmblood that is behind the leg however is bloody awful and the most unseating thing you can get.
quizzie
Well-Known Member
I also think that the degree of comfort depends to some degree on the fitness and suppleness of the rider...effortless it definitely is not.... you need to be able to absorb the movement and power through your body without inhibiting the horse.... it can certainly feel fabulous (and hopefully "look" effortless) when it all comes together.!
rara007
Well-Known Member
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3 bad moments in time for 3 of this weeks winners?
Not sure if that works- the side saddle winners picture on the hoys page, the riding pony champion and the small hunter champion.
It’s just comparing apples and pears. I’m not a terrible rider and I can ride a show horse but not a young dressage horse (well!) - I only ride a few a week and I’m very much an amateur.
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humblepie
Well-Known Member
The one thing I would say about those three pictures is is that they are all on their lap of honour so the horse has been stood in the lineup, stood between the podium thing was the presentations have all gone on with all the clapping and cheering and everything else and has had to stand like a rock so if the horse is a little heavier in the hand and over bent on its lap of honour it may not be surprising. Not saying they might not have been in the class, but I think those are indeed moments in time photos.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
I think that's somewhat fair, but we see overdeveloped splenius, fetlocks too low (the compression of the pasterns revealing lack of carrying ability on other joints), breakover way back under the rider, a sign of being on the forehand...and they are on the forehand in almost every case. As I've said before, I think most of us have forgotten what correct horizontal balance, a requirement of any regular riding horse, looks and feels like.
rara007
Well-Known Member
Last years LW cobs
And MW hunters
Just randomly selected I’ve not chosen the worst classes just the first two as comparison. I’ve probably done more showing than dressage this year, I’m not anti I just don’t see the way of going as better, just different!
TheMule
Well-Known Member
The winner of the cobs was grotesquely fat I thought
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Last years LW cobs
And MW hunters
Just randomly selected I’ve not chosen the worst classes just the first two as comparison. I’ve probably done more showing than dressage this year, I’m not anti I just don’t see the way of going as better, just different!
Virtually every photo shows btv to some extent, and incorrect muscular development in the neck, which we see in every sport, so it's no wonder conformation judges (who need to learn more about posture imo!) don't mark it down.
VictoriaSponge
Well-Known Member
You see a lot less of the tension that is seen in the top dressage horses than in show horses. “Overall picture” is a phrase I use a lot when talking about showing, even if both are working correctly or overbent, I wonder if the lack of tension in the show horses makes for a better one.
LEC
Opinions are like bum holes, everyone has one.
But there will be less tension? Ultimately they need to go round in a nice enough frame and off a light leg in a relaxed manner in 3 paces in a decent space. They are also in double bridles so can be light in the hand if well ridden and not in a contact with power.
It's apples and pears. Essentially even absolute top class show horses are novice/E level dressage. When Louise Bell started her good show horse in dressage she went out at Elementary. Just looked her first test was E and got 64% in Dec 2011. 5 months later she started competing more seriously getting 68% but that's quite a lot of training going in to switch disciplines. Pretty much a year after her dressage debut went medium and the rest is history with him going GP.
It's apples and pears. Essentially even absolute top class show horses are novice/E level dressage. When Louise Bell started her good show horse in dressage she went out at Elementary. Just looked her first test was E and got 64% in Dec 2011. 5 months later she started competing more seriously getting 68% but that's quite a lot of training going in to switch disciplines. Pretty much a year after her dressage debut went medium and the rest is history with him going GP.
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humblepie
Well-Known Member
I haven’t looked at all the photos, but the hunter ones I looked at weren’t nice on the whole. I wonder if the ROR ones are going better haven’t looked at the photos.
I think there are a lot of show horses who would go on higher dressage than elementary but it is different disciplines different requirements. Mine was up to medium mixing both careers although as he got older I have concentrated more on the showing as it’s less wear and tear on both of us as whilst we still do lateral work in general suppleness I don’t do 10 m circles. I still wish I’d taken the advice of a judge/ror person when he started at elementary that I should move onto medium soon. Unfortunately, as I’ve never done any real dressage before I had it stuck in my mind medium was seriously difficult and stuck at elementary for far too long.
I think there are a lot of show horses who would go on higher dressage than elementary but it is different disciplines different requirements. Mine was up to medium mixing both careers although as he got older I have concentrated more on the showing as it’s less wear and tear on both of us as whilst we still do lateral work in general suppleness I don’t do 10 m circles. I still wish I’d taken the advice of a judge/ror person when he started at elementary that I should move onto medium soon. Unfortunately, as I’ve never done any real dressage before I had it stuck in my mind medium was seriously difficult and stuck at elementary for far too long.
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