So disheartened with youngster and progress. Advice needed!

I just think it worth mentioning re the random spooking it can be the case that something else generates tension and that leads something to hurt that normally doesn't
 
If he were mine I would talk to my vet about a bute trial, just to see if there was any change in his behaviour and then decide where to go from there.
 
DalesDiva said:
He was backed at 3 (and a half) but he wast mouthed, lunged, long reined before that. My friend who helped me has started youngsters before him with no problems.
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I personally feel that his may be the root of all your problems. Most people will do weeks if not months of preparation for the backing process and it sounds like he really hadn't done much at all before he was backed. After that, his ridden education was sporadic so with the best will in the world he really hasn't had the best into to ridden work (not blaming you by the way...sometimes life just gets in the way and we can't do things how we would really like to). I just wonder if their have been a few gaps in his education along the way and he could be confused as much as anything.

I would agree with those urging you to redo all the physical checks. Once you are happy that he is happy and pain free, I would honestly go right back to the beginning and pretend he's never been broken. I highly recommend Richard Maxwell's book 'Train Your Young Horse'.

I do hope you aren't feeling too downhearted. I'm sure he will come right eventually. :)

ETA: PLEASE IGNORE! Just realised it was a typo in the quote and should have read that he 'WAS' mouthed etc! :)
 
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DalesDiva said:
She's trained to Grand Prix Dressage level, so she knows her stuff!
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Not necessarily... She may be a fantastic rider on a made horse but may not have any experience of teaching a horse from scratch - the two are very different. I've been there :( I had a PSG rider school my horse and she couldn't ride one side of her - she ended up really stressed with a bleeding mouth. I'm not saying your instructor is this bad but just because someone can rider well, does not make them a good trainer.

Once you have had the workup done look for a trainer who produces youngsters, rather than one focused on competition.
 
Have you kept a diary op? A diary might help to identify any patterns and give you something to discuss with vet and trainers.
I ask because years ago a friend had a lovely pony (county level) but he was so unpredictable. A full work up showed nothing and a diary showed that the episodes were random - so not related to weather, time of day, food, distractions, type of work etc. On a good day, he found it easy and was amazing, but on a bad day could injure himself and rider. In this case it wasn't good - eventually had to PTS and found brain tumours. Hopefully you can trace the triggers and find a way to manage him. Good luck.
 
Is it possible that he is just extremely dominant? Or a rig? As he is pushy, poor manners etc, and maybe he works ok some days but on the days when he does not want to, he just wont? I'm worried about the rearing, this could be very dangerous. Does he rear up in hand?
 
EQUIDAE said:
Not necessarily... She may be a fantastic rider on a made horse but may not have any experience of teaching a horse from scratch - the two are very different. I've been there :( I had a PSG rider school my horse and she couldn't ride one side of her - she ended up really stressed with a bleeding mouth. I'm not saying your instructor is this bad but just because someone can rider well, does not make them a good trainer.

Once you have had the workup done look for a trainer who produces youngsters, rather than one focused on competition.
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This. They are very different skill sets. Some people have both of course.

ETA I meant that being really great at bringing on youngsters is a different thing to riding advanced horses to a high standard. But riding and training are different skill sets too of course.
 
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I'm in the same area as you and recently was planning on getting a pro rider to come and assess my daughter's horse as various people had suggested her behaviour might be anticipatory rather than actual pain. So the plan was to see if a stronger rider could work her through it. Obviously a completely different situation to yours as our horse already has diagnosed health issues. We didn't go ahead with the riding as a bute trial gave us the answer. But a few people had recommended Myles West to us. I had spoken to him on the phone and he totally understood what we were wanting to achieve. So if you are looking for someone to come and assess your pony, I would say he'd definitely be worth speaking to.
 
My trainer is a competition rider, but she also produces her own youngsters. She's helped bring on loads of babies, so I don't feel she hasn't got the expertise.

I hadn't thought of the diary idea, but it's a brilliant one! :) I will start doing it from now. Thank you for that.

Gothdolly. He is quite dominant, but doesn't really display stallion like behaviour the way the only rig I've ever met did. It's definitely a possibility I suppose. His bolshiness on the ground doesn't feel malicious though if that makes sense? It's more endless curiosity and pushiness. He chews lead ropes, reins, goes through his grooming kit if you leave it near him. It's almost like he's hyperactive!

He's never reared in hand. The rearing in the school where I fell off is only the second time he's done it. He slightly reared the week before and I think that put the idea for a new trick in his head. The first time we were on a track whilst hacking and I was making him stand to adjust the girth. He didn't want to, but then lifted off the ground a bit when I wouldn't let him go forward.

Thank you for the Myles West suggestion Caramac. I will definitely look into him.

The vet, dentist and physio are all coming next week. I'm just totally leaving him alone until then, save bringing in to feed. The doctor has told me not to ride for a fortnight anyway until my back heals up a bit.
 
Agrobs museli. He literally only gets a couple of handfuls though. It's mainly to get his Equimins vitamins into him. He does well enough on the grass at this time of year.
 
Personally I would want to go back and properly establish ground work before continuing with ridden work. It sounds as though he doesn't really respect you on the ground or on his back - for me this is key for youngsters. Things need to be black and white - shades of grey are not required with babies. If he is bolshy in hand, I would want to address this as a first port of call - he needs to learn to listen to you and take cues from you.

I agree with re-doing physical checks too. Being so unpredictable is worrying.

My youngster is quite a "hot" horse and she was struggling out hacking with the rustles in the hedges, tractors in the field next door etc creating tension. I spoke to Alex at Hack Up and she has been on her "bespoke" supplement for a couple of months. The difference in her is quite astounding - she went from being on the edge of unnerving me, to being a super happy hacker. I am not suggesting that this will be a cure all - but *if* ground work and physical checks produce no results, it may be worth a try.

Don't despair - there is a saying about the night being darkest before the dawn, so stick with it, but just make sure you keep yourself safe as the utmost priority
 
Op just to make you feel better - I thought I was getting somewhere with my youngster, then today he sat down on his bum and tried to roll with me on board - twice! I despair sometimes too
 
could be that some days he is just sore after work and has DOMS? especially if he's young coming into full work. someone mentioned keeping a record of his behaviour maybe you'll find a pattern
 
I have foresters, backed and started a few. What's his breeding as a point of interest?

I'd go back to basics with him starting with groundwork and establish boundaries. It seems that he's a dominant character from what you have posted. My mare is was backed late as she wasn't mature enough. I'm getting some resistance when asking questions as she doesn't fully understand. We're working through it and as she's getting physically stronger she's easier to ride.

Youngsters can be tricky as sometimes it's a lack of understanding of what's being asked that results in what we perceive as "naughty" behaviour. Can you get someone to watch when you ride so that you have some help and an extra pair of eyes?
 
That did make me laugh Equidae :) I can totally relate. Mine got down on the floor and rolled in the gravel on the yard yesterday. I should probably add that he was tied up at the time!

He could possibly be sore after work? Hopefully the physio will be able to spot any issues with that when she comes out. I've started keeping a diary of his behaviour too as suggested. Going to see if that shows up any patterns.

He's a Buckland pony Peregrine. He came from NF, but he's stud bred. He is a dominant character for certain. I've definitely been taking a firmer hand with him this week. No chewing lead ropes/snatching for grass, or any of his other little tricks. He hates it! Last night I was doing some very basic in hand stuff on path outside his field. Just moving his quarters around, backing up, etc. I noticed he kept pushing forward at first when asked to move his back end over to the right. Yet had no problem moving over to the left. Wondering if there's an issue there? Interestingly in the school he's MUCH more reluctant to bend/flex to the left than the right. My trainer says it's stubbornness? Yet the difference is still really marked after dozens of lessons? (although better than others some days)

My trainer watches me ride in my lessons (obvious statement :0) She doesn't seem to think I'm generally giving him mixed clues or anything. Just that he's naughty. You iron out one issue and then he thinks up something else to challenge you with. I almost feel like I have no time to concentrate on improving my riding though. All my effort is going in to correcting his behaviour. It's so frustrating.

Even doing the ground work he is SO strong and bargy. He gave in eventually, but I still had issue of him pulling away from me at one point (which I can barely stop as he's really powerful) and then pushing forward when I was asking him to move his back end. I'm never 100% sure of the correct reaction either. I tell him no and then praise him when he does it right. I still feel utterly useless with him though.
 
Will your trainer warm him up for you, including tacking up, she will not put up with his nonsense.
I had a very small highland lift me off my feet and transport me 2 metres when he went loopy [farriers phrase], so you MUST get control using a control halter, he has you sussed ;)
No praise needed every minute of the day ..... sounds like you are a fluffy bunny in his eyes [and probably in mine]
Handle in a bridle [over head collar, in fact I would probably just keep head collar on even when riding, removing noseband and leaving leadrope on , groom and tack up tied up.
 
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If he where here he would be in a bare paddock on his own and I would feed him nothing else .
I would have zero and I mean zero tolerance about any lack of respect and his behaviour on the ground .
I would get a full work up from a vet but I would pick the vet very carefully with these 'lack of performance type work ups' you need to get the right vet .
Dentals is his mouth straight ward and his he easy to bit if not check for more specialist dental issues and hydoid pain .
I would work the pony twice a day including leading him from another horse when you can .
I would return to lunging pole work and long reining while still keeping him in ridden work.
I would work twice a day seven days a week with no days off .
Naughty horses and ponies need more work .
You need to get a really good saddle fitter to assess your tack
But once it's got to stage of being thrown off and hurt you need to invest in a work up because so many of these types of horses are in pain and you need to look after yourself as well.
Double or even treble his work and if he gets worse you know he's likely to be carrying an issue if he settles you need to give him a busy life or send him to someone who can .
Some horses like benefit from being loaded to work from home the last 'troubled teenager ' I bought was worked away from home at least four times a week at one point .
Finally withdraw cuddles and fuss do the minimal handling you need to for health and care .
He's got be a horse not a friend until he learns his place in the world .
 
Doormouse said:
Now interestingly I would argue that. The foresters I have had to break have all been extremely challenging but have all turned into fantastic ponies once you find the key to them during breaking.

I would reckon this pony needs a pro for a few months.
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My forester was the easiest ever, age two he would anything asked of him, he got bit of handling every day, and won champion at our little show [only 30 horses but there were two pros there on the day]!
 
Interestingly in the school he's MUCH more reluctant to bend/flex to the left than the right. My trainer says it's stubbornness
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Why would your pony be more stubborn to the left than the right? I think you might need a different trainer.
 
Bonkers. He's actually pretty good to tack up. I've worked really hard with him on it, and he has really improved. With regards to warming up...she will help me lunge him if he's really fresh, and I'm sure she would ride him if I asked. Thing is, he can be fine to warm up and then be a sod later on when he's asked to work properly.

I've been looking at control halters, but there are so many! Does anyone have any recommendations? Handling in a bridle may well be the way forward for the time being though. I will give it a try.

I probably am a fluffy bunny. He is much better than he used to be though. I've worked so hard with him. I just realise there are still loads of issues that need ironing out. In my defence he is my first youngster and EVERYBODY (including my friend I bought him from) comments on what an absolute nightmare he is, and how I do well to even tolerate it.

Goldenstar: I've totally stopped his feed now, just as you suggest. He's had nothing for nearly a week. I'm seeing if that makes any improvement. The vet is coming today, dentist tomorrow and physio next week. Saddle fitter is also coming out. I'm doing nothing but handling him in a halter until he gets teeth rechecked.

I totally accept that he probably needs more work, but there are issues when I live over an hour away by train (I'm in London)) He was getting worked five times a week on average and also lunged by girls at yard. It's hard giving him even more work as nobody will ride him for me! Well, my trainer would, but she charges £30 a time and I haven't got that sort of money sadly. Not making excuses, but logistically it is so difficult. I really feel like I'm not dong right by him, even though I'm trying so hard.

When you say zero tolerance, how do I display that? I've been correcting him firmly until he behaves, but everyone seems to tell me different ways/methods. My brain really is fried from it all. I don't know what to do for the best!
 
YCBM: I don't know why he's more stubborn to the left. I have suggested pain etc, but she says she doesn't think so? It's really noticeable when I ride him though. Going to speak to vet about it today.
 
DalesDiva said:
YCBM: I don't know why he's more stubborn to the left. I have suggested pain etc, but she says she doesn't think so? It's really noticeable when I ride him though. Going to speak to vet about it today.
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It just grates with me, I'm afraid, for your trainer to describe a horse who finds work on the left more difficult as 'stubborn'. He's either one sided, as most horses are when young, or he's in pain. It isn't being stubborn to work better one way than the other, and the quality of your trainer if she thinks it is would worry me. Even more do as you are dealing with a youngster.

If he's in pain, there could be dozens of reasons and I'm pleased to see you have the vet coming. It will be interesting to hear if he finds anything.
 
ycbm said:
It just grates with me, I'm afraid, for your trainer to describe a horse who finds work on the left more difficult as 'stubborn'. He's either one sided, as most horses are when young, or he's in pain. It isn't being stubborn to work better one way than the other, and the quality of your trainer if she thinks it is would worry me. Even more do as you are dealing with a youngster.

If he's in pain, there could be dozens of reasons and I'm pleased to see you have the vet coming. It will be interesting to hear if he finds anything.
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In all fairness she did say he's probably one sided due to being young. He just seems excessively one side, and that's been put down to mainly stubbornness.

For example...say you try riding a 10m circle to the left. Sometimes he will literally collapse his whole body in to avoid bending round the leg. I can be using my inside leg until it nearly falls off, and it makes no difference. It also leaves me feeling like I'm really pulling on the rein to get him to bend his neck. It leaves me feeling like I can't ride one side of him to be honest! Perhaps I can't.

I will update when vet has been later on :)
 
DalesDiva said:
In all fairness she did say he's probably one sided due to being young. He just seems excessively one side, and that's been put down to mainly stubbornness.

For example...say you try riding a 10m circle to the left. Sometimes he will literally collapse his whole body in to avoid bending round the leg. I can be using my inside leg until it nearly falls off, and it makes no difference. It also leaves me feeling like I'm really pulling on the rein to get him to bend his neck. It leaves me feeling like I can't ride one side of him to be honest! Perhaps I can't.

I will update when vet has been later on :)
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But how can it be stubborn to do a circle nicely on one rein and fall in on the other? Does she think he's saying to himself 'i know, what will really pee her off is if I show her I can do a perfect circle one way and refuse to do it the other way round!' ?

He has a physical problem with it. As a tip, if you are riding a circle and he falls in, move the circle so he is back on the right line. I got this from Chris Bartle, who says there is 'no such thing as falling in on a circle, only a circle in the wrong place'. He's only right if you have a big enough school, of course :), but I've found it works brilliantly with a young horse. You can also try lifting your inside hand up high.
 
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ycbm said:
But how can it be stubborn to do a circle nicely on one rein and fall in on the other? Does she think he's saying to himself 'i know, what will really pee her off is if I show her I can do a perfect circle one way and refuse to do it the other way round!' ?

He has a physical problem with it. As a tip, if you are riding a circle and he falls in, move the circle so he is back on the right line. I got this from Chris Bartle, who says there is 'no such thing as falling in on a circle, only a circle in the wrong place'. He's only right if you have a big enough school, of course :), but I've found it works brilliantly with a young horse. You can also try lifting your inside hand up high.
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I think perhaps she means stubborn as in yes he has a physical issue with it, but is really pushing as hard as he can to not do it?

That's a good tip about moving the circle. At the moment he often ends up going sideways instead.
 
No constructive advice, I am afraid but just a bit of moral support. I have my first youngster, had him since a month after he was first sat on and his 5th birthday is later this month. He can be cheeky, but is the sweetest, easiest, most obliging horse with the most wonderful temperament and his conformation makes everything easy for him. I have had stacks of amazing support as I bought him from my YO and he was started here on the yard. My YO trains me on him and rides him whenever I need his help to keep things on the right track. They produce and sell young horses here as well as running a livery business, so really know their stuff.

Even so, there have been big ups and downs, and there have been plenty of times I have got off and cried from sheer frustration with myself and my crap riding. We went through a phase where I couldn't even trot a 20m circle without losing the steering.

Another lady on the yard, who has ridden all her life and is a better rider and horsewoman than me, also has a similar horse and she hasn't found it all plain sailing either.

My point is that even when the odds are stacked in your favour, young horses are hard work and an emotional roller coaster. Nobody looks pretty on them to start with. And you are facing some particular challenges with yours. So cut yourself some slack and hang on to your confidence, as you're not going to be much use to your horse without it!
 
ycbm said:
He has a physical problem with it. As a tip, if you are riding a circle and he falls in, move the circle so he is back on the right line. I got this from Chris Bartle, who says there is 'no such thing as falling in on a circle, only a circle in the wrong place'. He's only right if you have a big enough school, of course :), but I've found it works brilliantly with a young horse. You can also try lifting your inside hand up high.
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This is why i love not having a school, and having a big paddock to school in. I can change direction at anywhere, and i use the method above a lot with my New Forest as he falls out of his right shoulder but not his left - it's not physical for him. He takes a lot of riding to keep together and due to my back injury, my right leg/side is weaker than my left so my right leg isn't as effective. i normally carry a whip on my right side to back up my aids to him if he is taking advantage.


It likely is a physical issue in a youngster though. Something so simple such as muscle built up more one side than the other effecting the saddle fit even a tiny bit.
 
One point to check, if all physical causes with him are ruled out, is that your own position isn't preventing him going properly on the left rein. My youngster also does not go well on the left rein. However, I have a tendency to pull back with my inside left hand when on the right rein, I didn't even know I was doing it till a few years ago when my instructor pointed it out, I feel straight but when I look down, my hands are not, and in fact I was quite crooked, collapsing left hip and shoulder. I now get physio (same physio as does horse, which is handy!) and i do have a weakness there, whenever my back is sore/stiff I see an immediate adverse impact on my horse (the other issue is not getting the correct lead on right canter, because my weakness prevents me getting my left leg and hip in the correct place to ask for right canter correctly, not sure if that is an issue for you too). You need to be careful not to try to pull him round with your inside rein, it might feel like it will work but it won't create true bend, it has to be inside leg to outside hand, I know how easy that sounds on paper and how hard it is in practice, big circles or moving circles as one person above suggests, and in time it will get better. I've a youngster (well, he's rising 7 now, had him since he was 4) and like you I questioned (and still question) whether I am good enough for him, not bringing him on correctly etc. It's clear from your posts you are trying to do the very best for your boy, so don't beat yourself up....good luck.
 
Micropony said:
No constructive advice, I am afraid but just a bit of moral support. I have my first youngster, had him since a month after he was first sat on and his 5th birthday is later this month. He can be cheeky, but is the sweetest, easiest, most obliging horse with the most wonderful temperament and his conformation makes everything easy for him. I have had stacks of amazing support as I bought him from my YO and he was started here on the yard. My YO trains me on him and rides him whenever I need his help to keep things on the right track. They produce and sell young horses here as well as running a livery business, so really know their stuff.

Even so, there have been big ups and downs, and there have been plenty of times I have got off and cried from sheer frustration with myself and my crap riding. We went through a phase where I couldn't even trot a 20m circle without losing the steering.

Another lady on the yard, who has ridden all her life and is a better rider and horsewoman than me, also has a similar horse and she hasn't found it all plain sailing either.

My point is that even when the odds are stacked in your favour, young horses are hard work and an emotional roller coaster. Nobody looks pretty on them to start with. And you are facing some particular challenges with yours. So cut yourself some slack and hang on to your confidence, as you're not going to be much use to your horse without it!
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Thank you Micropony. I really appreciate your kind words. I can relate sooooo strongly to the not being able to ride a 20m circle and the getting off and crying. I'm really glad to hear your youngster is turning out well. Patience clearly does pay off in the end. :) You're right...I do need to cut myself some slack. I am my own harshest critic and it's working against me in this instance.

The vet came out and said that she couldn't find any obvious signs of lameness, pain etc. He's had his teeth done, but they didn't have any issues that were thought to be likely to have caused pain. She says he appears in really good condition overall, perfect weight etc. She also praised his extreme handsomeness! :) She's recommended I get his saddle adjusted asap (which I am) and to get the physio booked (which I am) She's suggested a bute trial if I still continue to have problems in the longer term.

So now it's just a case of saddler and physio & taking it from there I guess...
 
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