So how do you know if you horse has a balanced diet?

[BethanT]

A friend has a horse who is has been a struggle to keep weight on. She has just moved him to the same yard as me so he can get better grazing and eventually more work into him to muscle up.

As we have been discussing his current feed regime, it got me thinking. How do we know if what we are feeding our horses is right for them? What is a "normal" balanced diet for a horse, and how is the average horse owner supposed to know. How would they work it out?

I know you can seek free feed advise from each of the feed makers, but ultimately they are trying to sell you their products, and sometimes may be trying to get you to buy more than you need.

My lad is currently on a very high fiber diet, he gets Alfa A Oil and Grassnuts along with his few supplements as well as ad-lib hay/haylage. He looks and feels well. His coat is glossy, his ridden work is lovely, and he has enough energy (when he wants to shift it), so no need to change it as far as I can physically see. But if I asked a feed company I would assume I would be advised to feed a nut/mix/balancer. A lot of "research" that you can find online is funded by said feed companies and so I don't fully trust it not to be biased. But he may be lacking in something that I am not aware of, but at the same time I don't have unlimited funds to be able to buy feeds and straights that aren't required.

So back to the original question. How do you work out what your horse needs in terms of type of food - protein, fibre etc -, and quantity?

I think forums like this are the best places to ask as there is so much experience among you all!

 

[Hack4fun]

Why not ask a feed company? That way you will definitely know. It may be necessary for his haylage to be analysed to know the answer to your question.

 

[Amirah]

I have read several times that horses get far too much iron from grazing/forage (which inhibites the uptake of copper). Balancers etc always include iron (I think, maybe some don't). You can now buy an iron free rockies mineral lick which I bought for mine, they ignore their 'normal' rockies and lick the iron free one. They get grass, haylage and the rockies and that's it (and I used to be the Queen of supplements).

Apparently the iron free rockies was developed at the request of cattle farmers.

 

[lottiepony]

I have an equine nutritionist work out my boys diet. I get a full break down of the diet, summary page giving amounts and feed then the following pages show it fully broken down into every element and what the diet gives etc. Personally I love it, she visits every couple of months for a weigh in (has her own mobile weigh bridge) and assessment of them. She also analyses the forage so know exactly what each is getting (well as close as possible), looks at the fields and takes into account their turnout time, work load etc etc. All incredibly thorough and the best bit is she has no connection to any feed company so it's totally unbiased. And to be fair all I have is 2 feeds items for each horse. (total opposites on the feeding requirement spectrum!)
I went down this route as having bought a 2 yr old (now rising 4) I wanted to get his diet absolutely right.

 

[Annagain]

If I had a pound for every time I was told by a feed rep to feed my two boys a low cal balancer, I'd have... well, at least £20! I've had / known my boys for 13 and 17 years respectively. They're 22 and the picture of health in terms of overall condition - they both have thier own age related niggles but diet won't change that. Neither has ever had a balancer or supplement in their lives. I nod and smile while making use of their weighbridges.

There's no harm in taking advice from the feed companies but you do need to bear in mind that they're trying to sell you their products. The weighbridges and their knowledge on condition scoring etc is useful but any more than that, I'm pinching a lot of salt. Without forage analysis and blood tests it's very hard to say what vitamins and minerals a horse needs.

I'm not saying their products don't have a value but with a bit of basic knowlege and an hour or two research on the internet most of us could work out roughly what sort of feed to give what sort of horse. As to specific brands / products I think it's a case of trial and error. Two very similar on paper horses can react very differently to the same feed for no obvious reason, or one may just not like it.

One of mine has to have a very low sugar diet or he gets a scabby rash. I've worked out what to give him by studying each brand's website for all the nutritional values. I narrowed it down to three or four feeds (same type of product but different brands). He's not a fussy eater but wouldn't touch one brand, while another was very difficult to find - special order only and took ages to arrive. He loves the third we tried and it's fairly readily available so we've stuck to it.

I think if you have a new horse or you have a rapid change in your horse it can be useful to talk it through with someone but I'm a big believer in 'if it aint broke don't fix it'.

 

[JillA]

You start with an analysis of the element which is the highest proportion of the diet - the grass or the fodder. Once you have that you can add any minerals they are deficient in, and a good company such as Forageplus will help with that. Vitamins are another matter and you would have to rely in symptoms of a deficiency.
But as regards proportions of carbs, fibre, protein etc - your forage or grass provides a good balance and TBH the bit you feed in a bucket is way less than about 5% of the total diet.
But read labels, look at websites, find out for yourself what some of the proprietory brands contain - you might find it scary. Topspec have added a linseed product to their range, and it wasn't easy to find out what was in it. They did eventually 'fess up and this is it "Soya Hulls (GM), Full Fat Linseed, Linseed Expeller, Unmolassed Beet Pulp, Grass, High Fibre Oat-By Product, Flaked Maize, Oat Bran Flakes, Wheatbran, Molasses, Micronised Flaked Peas, Wheatfeed, Mineral Premix" At least two of the items on that list are bad news, but like so much, is added to make it palatable so your horse gobbles it up and you think it is good for him

 

[pennyturner]

Well, mine get grass and hay, but they seem to think that they're short of whatever's in ivy at this time of year.
They go mad for a couple of mouth fulls as they pass an ivy-covered tree.

 

[Cortez]

How do you know? By looking at them, riding them and generally observing them. Feed companies have turned keeping and maintaining horses into a mad labyrinth of guilt and worry purely for their own profit. Horses that don't have to work very hard (that is the vast majority these days, thankfully), that hold their weight well and are of generally good health do NOT need supplementing, or often feeding other than hay/grass at all.

 

[pootler]

Get your vet to do a full blood panel. If you have a free call out day even better. For £60 you can work from a factual basis rather than guess work.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

How do you know? By looking at them, riding them and generally observing them. Feed companies have turned keeping and maintaining horses into a mad labyrinth of guilt and worry purely for their own profit. Horses that don't have to work very hard (that is the vast majority these days, thankfully), that hold their weight well and are of generally good health do NOT need supplementing, or often feeding other than hay/grass at all.

This ^^^^^^^^^, a healthy horse looks and behaves like a healthy horse. Monitor the weight, condition and vital signs, take photos as a record, so that if there is a possible problem, you have something to look back on and compare with.

 

[SEL]

Well, mine get grass and hay, but they seem to think that they're short of whatever's in ivy at this time of year.
They go mad for a couple of mouth fulls as they pass an ivy-covered tree.

I was once told it's a natural wormer. My big lad will gently take baby ivy leaves too.

 

[BethanT]

How do you know? By looking at them, riding them and generally observing them. Feed companies have turned keeping and maintaining horses into a mad labyrinth of guilt and worry purely for their own profit. Horses that don't have to work very hard (that is the vast majority these days, thankfully), that hold their weight well and are of generally good health do NOT need supplementing, or often feeding other than hay/grass at all.

This is generally my own thoughts on it. I am very much a "if it ain't broke don't fix it" type of person.

But my own curiosity wants to know more about the feeding of horses. Your right in that feed companies have made it so incredibly difficult and complicated for horse owners to know exactly what they are feeding, but also why.

I have also been advised that I should be feeding my horses "balancers" from various feed brands, and to me that is just wasting money.

Generally where is the best place to read up on this type of thing?

 

[BethanT]

If I had a pound for every time I was told by a feed rep to feed my two boys a low cal balancer, I'd have... well, at least £20! I've had / known my boys for 13 and 17 years respectively. They're 22 and the picture of health in terms of overall condition - they both have thier own age related niggles but diet won't change that. Neither has ever had a balancer or supplement in their lives. I nod and smile while making use of their weighbridges.

There's no harm in taking advice from the feed companies but you do need to bear in mind that they're trying to sell you their products. The weighbridges and their knowledge on condition scoring etc is useful but any more than that, I'm pinching a lot of salt. Without forage analysis and blood tests it's very hard to say what vitamins and minerals a horse needs.

I'm not saying their products don't have a value but with a bit of basic knowlege and an hour or two research on the internet most of us could work out roughly what sort of feed to give what sort of horse. As to specific brands / products I think it's a case of trial and error. Two very similar on paper horses can react very differently to the same feed for no obvious reason, or one may just not like it.

One of mine has to have a very low sugar diet or he gets a scabby rash. I've worked out what to give him by studying each brand's website for all the nutritional values. I narrowed it down to three or four feeds (same type of product but different brands). He's not a fussy eater but wouldn't touch one brand, while another was very difficult to find - special order only and took ages to arrive. He loves the third we tried and it's fairly readily available so we've stuck to it.

I think if you have a new horse or you have a rapid change in your horse it can be useful to talk it through with someone but I'm a big believer in 'if it aint broke don't fix it'.

My point exactly, and when you try and google for research it is all funded by these feed companies, so I even take that with a pinch of salt!

I just want non biased independent research for form my own opinions on! Why i that so hard lol

 

[JillA]

There were a couple of on line courses on equine nutrition, one by Coursera and another by Cafre. They were free but I think there is a fee now. I did both and found the Cafre one the better of the two - not hugely detailed but enough for the horse owner.
I just googled and couldn't find either, might be worth contacting them to ask, or searching for other on line courses. Just check credentials though, Cafre is a good NI college and the coursera one was run by Edinburgh University vet school

 

[Morgan123]

There's a website called ****** which is v helpful, you do have to pay a little to join but you put in all the info about your horse's weight, age, breed, etc etc, and everything you feed, and it breaks it all down for you and tells you if they're lacking in any particular minerals, or if you're overdoing it on others. Obviously it's only a general guide as it hasn't analysed your specific hay/haylage/grass but it's still useful - it's got pretty much all commercial feeds listed in it. With people feeding so many supplements it's easy to overdo it on some minerals so it's really helpful for that.
But if in doubt, an independent nutritionist is also great! follow clare mcleod on facebook for example, she gives very straightforward and helpful advice and does yard visits too.

 

[Morgan123]

oops it won't publish name. I'm not related to this group just think it's a useful link. Put it this way, if you put into google Feed XL you would find it

 

[BethanT]

There's a website called ****** which is v helpful, you do have to pay a little to join but you put in all the info about your horse's weight, age, breed, etc etc, and everything you feed, and it breaks it all down for you and tells you if they're lacking in any particular minerals, or if you're overdoing it on others. Obviously it's only a general guide as it hasn't analysed your specific hay/haylage/grass but it's still useful - it's got pretty much all commercial feeds listed in it. With people feeding so many supplements it's easy to overdo it on some minerals so it's really helpful for that.
But if in doubt, an independent nutritionist is also great! follow clare mcleod on facebook for example, she gives very straightforward and helpful advice and does yard visits too.

I wondered if anyone had come up with this idea, will have a quick look.

 

[Queenbee]

How do you know? By looking at them, riding them and generally observing them. Feed companies have turned keeping and maintaining horses into a mad labyrinth of guilt and worry purely for their own profit. Horses that don't have to work very hard (that is the vast majority these days, thankfully), that hold their weight well and are of generally good health do NOT need supplementing, or often feeding other than hay/grass at all.

Amen, whatever happened to common sense?! Bloods, Analysis?? What?? As Cortez says, use your eyes, if you horse looks ok, nice coat, good hooves, bright eyed, decent energy levels then its pretty safe to say he/she is getting what they need in terms of nutrition. Now if your horse actually looks lacklustre then yes, consider exploring bloods, analysis but when your horse looks and behaves totally healthy then just go with that.

My boy is on bare grazing and 3 nets of hay a day - he is well covered, bright eyed, full of energy, good coat and hooves - Im not going to go on a wild goose chase to tip my money down the drain

 

[tda]

Amen, whatever happened to common sense?! Bloods, Analysis?? What?? As Cortez says, use your eyes, if you horse looks ok, nice coat, good hooves, bright eyed, decent energy levels then its pretty safe to say he/she is getting what they need in terms of nutrition. Now if your horse actually looks lacklustre then yes, consider exploring bloods, analysis but when your horse looks and behaves totally healthy then just go with that.

My boy is on bare grazing and 3 nets of hay a day - he is well covered, bright eyed, full of energy, good coat and hooves - Im not going to go on a wild goose chase to tip my money down the drain

This, only this x

 

[JillA]

Amen, whatever happened to common sense?! Bloods, Analysis?? What?? As Cortez says, use your eyes, if you horse looks ok, nice coat, good hooves, bright eyed, decent energy levels then its pretty safe to say he/she is getting what they need in terms of nutrition. Now if your horse actually looks lacklustre then yes, consider exploring bloods, analysis but when your horse looks and behaves totally healthy then just go with that.

My boy is on bare grazing and 3 nets of hay a day - he is well covered, bright eyed, full of energy, good coat and hooves - Im not going to go on a wild goose chase to tip my money down the drain

I think it is a quest for knowledge, rather than a means to solve a problem. And goodness knows we can all learn more

 

[supsup]

So back to the original question. How do you work out what your horse needs in terms of type of food - protein, fibre etc -, and quantity?

I'd say the best way to go about it is to have good foundation knowledge of equine nutrition, and then consider the individual horse in front of you. You can get exactly that service from an independent nutritionist (i.e. someone with a degree in equine nutrition, who is not affiliated with any particular feed company), but of course you have to pay for the privilege. The reason advice from feed companies is free is because they are hoping to get another customer out of it. Doesn't mean the advice is wrong necessarily, but they probably won't tell you if their competitor has a better product, or you'd be better off not feeding anything.

The publication "nutrient requirements of horses" published by the NRC is a summary of all the scientific studies on equine nutrition and is a good starting point for figuring out what the requirements for energy, protein, minerals etc. are. However, the latest edition is now 11 years old again, science moves on, and as always, there's some leeway for interpretation of the scientific studies. So, a good equine nutritionist will do CPD to keep up with the latest thinking.
There's an online calculator that gives you an idea what your horses requirements might be based on weight, work load etc here: http://nrc88.nas.edu/nrh/

Most so-called "balancers" that are intended to be fed as the only feed on top of forage aim to cover the minimum requirements for trace minerals and essential amino acids as laid out by the NRC. The reason they don't all have the same amount of e.g. minerals per dose (for a given horse weight) is because some simply include the full daily RDA, while others figure forage will provide already a certain percentage (which of course is unknown to the feed manufacturer, who doesn't know what forage you feed), and only top that up.
Some of the more recent supplements (e.g. from forageplus, ProHoof, Equimins) try to account for the "typical" mineral profile of UK forage (based on averages over many samples), and top up based on that. Also, some of these supplements aim to balance the trace minerals in particular ratios, which is not something the NRC recommends, but is based on the recommendation of Dr Kellon, a US vet who specialises in equine nutrition, and teaches online classes on the topic. One of these is called "NRC plus", which teaches ration balancing based on the NRC, plus some added considerations.

If you're reasonably good at math (and percentages) and have an interest, it's not that difficult to learn how to calculate nutrient requirements based on the NRC, and to figure out what different feed products provide.

What's more of an art, IMO, is to then apply all this and put it into the context of the actual horse in front of you. The "ain't broke, don't fix it" thing definitely has a ring of truth. On the other hand, small imbalances in the diet that are merely sub-optimal, but not obviously harmful might be difficult to spot. Maybe your horse could be fitter/recover quicker/have more endurance if nutrition were optimised, but you simply don't know it. Hence the almost blanket recommendation by feed company nutritionists to feed a balancer on top of the forage. It is very common for UK forage to be deficient at least in copper and zinc (according to the NRC minimum requirements). Whether the particular balancer recommended would be a good fit to your particular forage, and would truly balance out any existing deficiencies remains a guess unless you test your forage.

In my opinion (based on a couple online nutrition courses, incl the Dr Kellon ones), one of the balancers aiming to make up for shortfalls in "typical" UK forage is a sensible and relatively cheap (£15ish per month for my 400kg boy) "insurance" against any potential deficiencies. Personally, I'd rather not wait to see if my horse will start showing outright signs of deficiency if he gets nothing but forage. (I've actually had my grazing tested. My horse has been living off the same 3-4acres for 10 years now, and I know that our grazing is low in some trace minerals.) But I can understand those who say: my horse looks absolutely fine, and I won't spend money on a feed product unless I see hard evidence it's needed. What I find less easy to understand is that many people are willing to spend quite a considerable amount of money on feeds (e.g. chaffs, mixes, all sorts of bagged fibres) that do not address particular micronutrient requirements, but basically just add extra calories, and in the case of bagged fibres, you could provide much cheaper by simply feeding more forage. Or on supplements that have no supporting evidence of working (and testimonials do not count as evidence in my book).

In the end it's a personal choice.

 

[ester]

see I'm not sure I will totally trust the 'looks/behaves fine' in future having had bloods that tell a different story.

I'm happier knowing that I have the I's dotted and the T's crossed especially when I'm in it for the long haul, if other's don't need that then that's fine

Morgan is it a bad/swear word? That is usually the only reason for stars!

Bethan there is plenty of research out there not funded by feed companies, it is what goes to make up the NRC guidelines/values for requirements. (cross-posted, I was typing for ages! But yes I have done the maths myself, not too complicated).

 

[madamebonnie]

Not an expert but as a scientist I like to have all my data in spreadsheets. I have broken down each feeds with the basic nutritional values. Over the two and a half years of owning George I have been through a few feed regimes: bought him on good grass DIY initially so had next to nothing extra. Took bad advice to feed less to calm him down and then lost a lot of weight. Then had surgery and looked like a rack of ribs after. Took a while to build him up. Then a good 12 months maintenance and now diagnosed with Ulcers.

This way I can see what did work for him calorie wise for loosing weight, gaining weight and maintaining weight. I appreciate it's not all in the DE but if I add in hours grazing and haynet weight I can take a rational approach when looking at changes.

 

[BethanT]

Amen, whatever happened to common sense?! Bloods, Analysis?? What?? As Cortez says, use your eyes, if you horse looks ok, nice coat, good hooves, bright eyed, decent energy levels then its pretty safe to say he/she is getting what they need in terms of nutrition. Now if your horse actually looks lacklustre then yes, consider exploring bloods, analysis but when your horse looks and behaves totally healthy then just go with that.

My boy is on bare grazing and 3 nets of hay a day - he is well covered, bright eyed, full of energy, good coat and hooves - Im not going to go on a wild goose chase to tip my money down the drain

I completely agree Queenbee. As I think I mentioned before my boy is on Alfa A Oil and grassnuts and he looks fab. But the amount of people who have told me I should feed him this that and the other is ridiculous. When I ask why they can't tell me!

My original question was more of a broadly asked one for horse owners in general, and get a bit of a thread going with people sharing experiences I guess. As already mentioned a lot of what the feed companies advise is good marketing to make owners buy more than they would need. But if information for horse owners was more easily available perhaps they wouldn't get conned into it? But maybe that is the point of keeping it all a big secret! After all, there is no money in sound and well horses so they say!

 

[ester]

I don't think I've ever made a feed recommendation (only when asked) without being able to explain why!

I honestly don't think it is any sort of big secret, especially in the days of the internet, owners just have to be bothered enough to go and find the non-biased information if they are interested.

 

[BethanT]

I'd say the best way to go about it is to have good foundation knowledge of equine nutrition, and then consider the individual horse in front of you. You can get exactly that service from an independent nutritionist (i.e. someone with a degree in equine nutrition, who is not affiliated with any particular feed company), but of course you have to pay for the privilege. The reason advice from feed companies is free is because they are hoping to get another customer out of it. Doesn't mean the advice is wrong necessarily, but they probably won't tell you if their competitor has a better product, or you'd be better off not feeding anything.

The publication "nutrient requirements of horses" published by the NRC is a summary of all the scientific studies on equine nutrition and is a good starting point for figuring out what the requirements for energy, protein, minerals etc. are. However, the latest edition is now 11 years old again, science moves on, and as always, there's some leeway for interpretation of the scientific studies. So, a good equine nutritionist will do CPD to keep up with the latest thinking.
There's an online calculator that gives you an idea what your horses requirements might be based on weight, work load etc here: http://nrc88.nas.edu/nrh/

Most so-called "balancers" that are intended to be fed as the only feed on top of forage aim to cover the minimum requirements for trace minerals and essential amino acids as laid out by the NRC. The reason they don't all have the same amount of e.g. minerals per dose (for a given horse weight) is because some simply include the full daily RDA, while others figure forage will provide already a certain percentage (which of course is unknown to the feed manufacturer, who doesn't know what forage you feed), and only top that up.
Some of the more recent supplements (e.g. from forageplus, ProHoof, Equimins) try to account for the "typical" mineral profile of UK forage (based on averages over many samples), and top up based on that. Also, some of these supplements aim to balance the trace minerals in particular ratios, which is not something the NRC recommends, but is based on the recommendation of Dr Kellon, a US vet who specialises in equine nutrition, and teaches online classes on the topic. One of these is called "NRC plus", which teaches ration balancing based on the NRC, plus some added considerations.

If you're reasonably good at math (and percentages) and have an interest, it's not that difficult to learn how to calculate nutrient requirements based on the NRC, and to figure out what different feed products provide.

What's more of an art, IMO, is to then apply all this and put it into the context of the actual horse in front of you. The "ain't broke, don't fix it" thing definitely has a ring of truth. On the other hand, small imbalances in the diet that are merely sub-optimal, but not obviously harmful might be difficult to spot. Maybe your horse could be fitter/recover quicker/have more endurance if nutrition were optimised, but you simply don't know it. Hence the almost blanket recommendation by feed company nutritionists to feed a balancer on top of the forage. It is very common for UK forage to be deficient at least in copper and zinc (according to the NRC minimum requirements). Whether the particular balancer recommended would be a good fit to your particular forage, and would truly balance out any existing deficiencies remains a guess unless you test your forage.

In my opinion (based on a couple online nutrition courses, incl the Dr Kellon ones), one of the balancers aiming to make up for shortfalls in "typical" UK forage is a sensible and relatively cheap (£15ish per month for my 400kg boy) "insurance" against any potential deficiencies. Personally, I'd rather not wait to see if my horse will start showing outright signs of deficiency if he gets nothing but forage. (I've actually had my grazing tested. My horse has been living off the same 3-4acres for 10 years now, and I know that our grazing is low in some trace minerals.) But I can understand those who say: my horse looks absolutely fine, and I won't spend money on a feed product unless I see hard evidence it's needed. What I find less easy to understand is that many people are willing to spend quite a considerable amount of money on feeds (e.g. chaffs, mixes, all sorts of bagged fibres) that do not address particular micronutrient requirements, but basically just add extra calories, and in the case of bagged fibres, you could provide much cheaper by simply feeding more forage. Or on supplements that have no supporting evidence of working (and testimonials do not count as evidence in my book).

In the end it's a personal choice.

Wow, what an in dept reply! Thank you supsup. I will certainly be researching using the links you have given there.

madamebonnie that is also seriously impressive. I love a good spreadsheet so this is something I could definitely refer back to once up and running.

JillA, yes you are correct, this isn't to solve a particular problem just my own curiosity and want to learn more about these animals. I would like to imagine I am always doing the best by them, but without throwing money down the drain! I already watch it go in then out when they are eating their haynets and pooing at the same time!

 

[BethanT]

I don't think I've ever made a feed recommendation (only when asked) without being able to explain why!

I honestly don't think it is any sort of big secret, especially in the days of the internet, owners just have to be bothered enough to go and find the non-biased information if they are interested.

I don't think its a secret, its just clever marketing. Feed companies want owners to think their horse MUST have that feed for this reason.

Something that always struck me was something a friend of mine said. She said, "If a horse was meant to have cod liver oil in its diet, it would have evolved by the sea and be able to catch fish!"

 

[ester]

Oh sorry you said that was the point in keeping it a big secret, that is why I used that term and said I don't think it is, owners just need to do either ignore them or do a bit more legwork themselves.

less said about glucosamine and chondrotin sources the better

 

[BethanT]

Oh I am confusing myself now (this is what happens when should be working )

Oh yes, joint supplements etc *rolls eyes* don't even get me started!

 

[supsup]

If I may draw a parallel to human nutrition - I think we'd all be better off (i.e. healthier) if the supermarkets offered nothing but fresh produce, fresh meat/dairy/cheese from the counter and one each of the staples (porridge oats, pasta...). Shopping for horse feed today is a bit like choosing your breakfast cereal in an aisle full of colourful boxes. The more so-called health claims printed on them, the worse they usually are. And who really needs 50 types of pasta, if all they differ in is the packaging and shape?
However, more information (as in, full list of ingredients, nutritional analysis, traffic-light labels, health labels, plus campaigns by NHS and government) have not led to people making better choices, as a whole. I actually think we're in information overload, as every company tries to differentiate their product from their competitor's.

One response is to say: screw it! and stop shopping in the supermarket (analogue: forage only for your horse). The other is to learn enough to cut through the b***s**t, see through the marketing tactics and be an informed shopper.