So many horses "over there" >> behind vertical

Palindrome said:
yes, it's very in fashion in England. People even set up their horse BTV to pose for a picture. They achieve that by see sawing on the bit. Bonus points if you can do it while traveling forward.

ETA: I should say it doesn't concern me as most people just want the horse to assume a pretty tucked in stance for the picture and then return to normal, although there are some people that keep the horse like that all the time. I think that's how pony club teaches people to put their horse into an outline (clamp with your legs and see-saw with the hands then hold).
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that is not how PC teaches....
 
That's a huge shame, I really enjoy your posts. I think you are a valuable member of this forum.

Fourthed.

I have a horse who is very hard mouthed and leans - he came to me like that. I have been told by others to half halt with my outside hand continually to get him to "tuck his head in" and "get on the bit". Fortunately, I am old and grumpy so we are persisting with my instructor's method - repeating to myself "light hands, light hands" and not being tempted to niggle but letting him find nothing there when he wants to lean.

The early results are a horse that leans like a beggar at times but, when he gets it, becomes as light in front as fairy cake and moves like a dream. It will probably always be a work in progress but lateral work seems to be the key for me.

I know this isn't strictly on topic but draw reins are one of my bugbears and I wonder how many BTV horses are routinely schooled in them.
 
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Cortez said:
I am quite shocked at the number of people who say it's OK for the horse to be BTV, that it's just a stage they're going through. I have a horse that was broken and ridden in England and it's taken me three YEARS to get him to start to put his nose forward, this has impacted massively on his training and progress and he may never be able to do what he can do because of it. Do people not understand the mechanics of what they are doing?
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Clearly not. Head and brick wall comes to mind.
 
glamourpuss said:
Rather like Paint me Proud I have a horse that I work BTV. This isn't done by 'fiddling' & making his mouth hard I can assure you.
For him it's a trade off. He tends to go inverted, holds tension through out his whole body & can become inconsistent in the contact. By riding him deeper & allowing a slightly longer than ideal frame, yes I lose a little of the impulsion (but I still ensure the hind legs are engaged) but it keeps him softer, he works over his back, is softer through the jaw, is happier to work into the contact. Therefore his straightness, rhythm & contact are much more improved, which is what keeps my dressage scores higher - I'm only talking about at lower levels obviously!!
Now I think as this horse does more lateral work & starts becoming strong enough to step under more this will 'push' the head position up into a much more desirable place (he head isn't winched BTV he places it there by how I work the whole body) this will keep the softness but in a more correct frame.

Ironically my other horse is NEVER allowed to go BTV. He will duck behind the contact & whilst looking 'pretty' with an arched neck his hocks will trail & his paces go 'choppy'. His favourite evasion is to go over bent & too light in the hand. So for him he works on the vertical or even ever so slightly above.

It's all about riding the horse underneath you & I think sometimes you have to sacrifice the perfect frame to concentrate on other aspects of the training.
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I hate this method of training. It is all about competition results, as you admit here. Your first horse described above places his head BTV because your reins are too short not because he cannot manage a higher head carriage. If you lengthened them he would have a lower neck, and his nose would poke a bit. Natural for the horses stage of training. If he raises his head and goes hollow he needs to be worked normally and he will gradually learn to relax and be less inverted. BTV is an attempt to hurry this training. He may well be inconsistent in the contact and more tense and everything else you mention to start with, until he learns to carry himself better, which he will do naturally over time as his muscles build. A horse does not need an arched neck for the back to relax or for the correct muscles to be built up. It will all happen gradually over time with correct work. Attempting correct work in an inverted horse is not pointless as you seem to suggest in a later post. The arched neck of a rounded outline where the horse is on the bit, comes last with natural self carriage, after everything else has been put in place. Being BTV is a far worse fault than any of those others you mention, though perhaps not in the eyes of a dressage judge or those who chase their approval in the form of test scores and rosettes.

Maybe "modern dressage training", or the attempt to look like you have done some, is the answer to the OPs original question of why so many adverts fearure horses BTV?
 
I am shocked by the number of 3 and 4 year olds are ridden like this. Reins about a foot long and leg firmly on forcing them into a heavy contact. The pain they must go through before the nerves are damaged beyond repair must be just awful.
 
This thread illustrates exactly why horses go BTV; because as riders we obsess about the head and neck. Maybe this is because our vision is dominant to our feel, and the head and neck is right in front of us?

What we should be discussing/thinking about is (as Littleshetland and Palindrone said) engagement of the hindquarters.
S:)
 
Firefly9410 said:
I hate this method of training. It is all about competition results, as you admit here. Your first horse described above places his head BTV because your reins are too short not because he cannot manage a higher head carriage. If you lengthened them he would have a lower neck, and his nose would poke a bit. Natural for the horses stage of training. If he raises his head and goes hollow he needs to be worked normally and he will gradually learn to relax and be less inverted. BTV is an attempt to hurry this training. He may well be inconsistent in the contact and more tense and everything else you mention to start with, until he learns to carry himself better, which he will do naturally over time as his muscles build. A horse does not need an arched neck for the back to relax or for the correct muscles to be built up. It will all happen gradually over time with correct work. Attempting correct work in an inverted horse is not pointless as you seem to suggest in a later post. The arched neck of a rounded outline where the horse is on the bit, comes last with natural self carriage, after everything else has been put in place. Being BTV is a far worse fault than any of those others you mention, though perhaps not in the eyes of a dressage judge or those who chase their approval in the form of test scores and rosettes.

Maybe "modern dressage training", or the attempt to look like you have done some, is the answer to the OPs original question of why so many adverts fearure horses BTV?
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I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your post. You are making huge assumptions about my riding.
My reins are not too short, not in the slightest. I'm giggling in a slightly hysterical manner that you can see the length of my rein just from my post 😂 especially given my instructor (Olympic eventer who trains with one of the most respected dressage riders in this country) is often getting me to shorten my reins on horse 2 saying 'you aren't riding S now'
Yes, I like competition success. I don't see why I should apologise for that & I'm taking a path which leads me to that. My horse, my choice thank you.

This horse doesn't just go inverted, he holds tension throughout his whole body, it effects his rhythm, his straightness, his acceptance of the contact. The tension means he loses all lateral suppleness....I'll repeat it again the ALLOWING him slightly behind the vertical is a trade off. It's not ideal, not perfect but it's not forced, it's just how I work him now at this point. He is an ex-racer BTW.
I agree that the correct head carriage is the final point in the training, which he will achieve in self carriage. Except in his case his nose will push out & the neck raise when the frame shortens.
I'm sorry you find my training method for this one horse so abhorrent but as the saying goes 'there are many ways to skin a cat'. I'm not ashamed to demonstrate that I am prepared to listen to what a horse is telling me instead of following an idealistic fixed route.
 
okay, lots of comments whle i've been at work.

My original two posts were just a very quick explanation of SOME of the work we do with my horse during his lessons. The most important thing we are doing is getting him engaged from behind, driving his engine forward to bring him more together.

The way ee are working him makes perfect sense for him, and i think it depends a lot on the individual horse. I had lessons with another instructor for 18 months without really making any progress with him, 4 months of new instructor are horses whole attitude to work is changing, he's better off the leg, more willing, understand when to soften and is maintaning a better rhythm.

When i lengthen the rein he stretches down and forward and i ride with rather long reins anyway so i'm not hauling him in and holding him there.

Please dont think all we do is drag his head in btv, what we do we are doing for a reason and it is working. We arent trying to just make him look pretty, we are trying to establish the correct way of working, from behind, off the leg into the bridle.

It's hard for me to explain myself through text, so I do hope you all understand :)
 
Shilasdair said:
This thread illustrates exactly why horses go BTV; because as riders we obsess about the head and neck. Maybe this is because our vision is dominant to our feel, and the head and neck is right in front of us?

What we should be discussing/thinking about is (as Littleshetland and Palindrone said) engagement of the hindquarters.
S:)
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I have several times try to say that I still expect my horse to engage his hindquarters & as he gets stronger will be able to take more weight behind which will enable the frame to change & the nose to push out, but [le sigh] because I've mentioned working BTV I am the work of the devil who rides with too short reins.
 
Shilasdair said:
This thread illustrates exactly why horses go BTV; because as riders we obsess about the head and neck. Maybe this is because our vision is dominant to our feel, and the head and neck is right in front of us?

What we should be discussing/thinking about is (as Littleshetland and Palindrone said) engagement of the hindquarters.
S:)
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Can it not be the opposite ?in many cases the rider does not necessarily be need to be overly focused on the head when the horse goes BTV sometimes in can be because the horse is being ridden forward a little more strongly than it's ready for .
BTV can be caused by so many things .
It seems obsessing over what others are doing with their horses head is a issue who knows what the riders are thinking .
 
glamourpuss said:
I have several times try to say that I still expect my horse to engage his hindquarters & as he gets stronger will be able to take more weight behind which will enable the frame to change & the nose to push out, but [le sigh] because I've mentioned working BTV I am the work of the devil who rides with too short reins.
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Yeah, but I'm old and couldn't remember all of the swots who mentioned engagement in the whole 7 pages. :p

Watch most riders though - and their eyes are boring into the back of the horse's head - I do it, anyway. Who was it that used to teach about riding with your eyes in 'soft focus'? Mary Wanless or Pegotty Henriques maybe?

S :)
 
glamourpuss said:
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your post. You are making huge assumptions about my riding.
My reins are not too short, not in the slightest. I'm giggling in a slightly hysterical manner that you can see the length of my rein just from my post 😂 especially given my instructor (Olympic eventer who trains with one of the most respected dressage riders in this country) is often getting me to shorten my reins on horse 2 saying 'you aren't riding S now'
Yes, I like competition success. I don't see why I should apologise for that & I'm taking a path which leads me to that. My horse, my choice thank you.

This horse doesn't just go inverted, he holds tension throughout his whole body, it effects his rhythm, his straightness, his acceptance of the contact. The tension means he loses all lateral suppleness....I'll repeat it again the ALLOWING him slightly behind the vertical is a trade off. It's not ideal, not perfect but it's not forced, it's just how I work him now at this point. He is an ex-racer BTW.
I agree that the correct head carriage is the final point in the training, which he will achieve in self carriage. Except in his case his nose will push out & the neck raise when the frame shortens.
I'm sorry you find my training method for this one horse so abhorrent but as the saying goes 'there are many ways to skin a cat'. I'm not ashamed to demonstrate that I am prepared to listen to what a horse is telling me instead of following an idealistic fixed route.
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I do not need to see the length of your reins. If your horse is BTV then it is my opinion that your reins are too short. The horse places his head in that position because due to the length of rein a more natural head carriage is not available to him. Feel free to giggle since you find your ignorance of correct horse training so amusing.

Edit: yes your horse your choice. I was expressing my opinion of your chosen training method not slating you personally. I will slate your instructor though. I wish they would not teach these methods it is the horse who suffers. I could not give a monkeys who your instructor is or what they have won. There are many winners at sport whose training of horses and riders is erm...poo.
 
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Firefly9410 said:
I do not need to see the length of your reins. If your horse is BTV then it is my opinion that your reins are too short. The horse places his head in that position because due to the length of rein a more natural head carriage is not available to him. Feel free to giggle since you find your ignorance of correct horse training so amusing.
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It's very very easy to have a horse BTV when reins are too long .
 
Firefly9410 said:
I do not need to see the length of your reins. If your horse is BTV then it is my opinion that your reins are too short. The horse places his head in that position because due to the length of rein a more natural head carriage is not available to him. Feel free to giggle since you find your ignorance of correct horse training so amusing.
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Well, it's not unknown for a horse to collect itself and curl behind the bit as an evasion, rather than being brought there by any contact.
S :)
 
Umm the reins too short thing is laughable... It's not usually reins too short rarely are reins in the uk short enough... Hands too low, too far back, not carried in front enough , I see ALL the time but reins too short - I can't remember a case...
 
If you have a horse working correctly in quite a high outline, then without changing rein length straighten your arms a bit so that the horse goes in a low outline then the horse may be behind the vertical. This, I don't believe is a problem. BTV is only a problem in a more advanced outline.
 
Iv never had a horse that worked btv however if I did I would not be encouraging this way of carrying themselves for a long period of time.

I understand that some of you have said it is a compromise for the time being but habits are easily fallen into but very difficult to get out of....
 
To be perfectly honest I think it's what people do now because it's what they are taught. I've had many many instructors, often very well qualified ones, just tell me to keep yanking the head in. I know better and they get the sack asap but a lot of kids or new riders don't. The people who don't (often kids I know) post pretty pictures all over Facebook and everyone else congratulates them on how good the horse looks! They cannot learn any better when they are constantly encouraged and so believe that any form of head down is correct riding. I will add to that that the occasionally BTV is hardly a world ending crime but the amount I see these days is becoming ridiculous.

Because it's what they're taught it's also what sells. People who don't know better think it looks pretty but cannot see that the muscle is in all the wrong places or that the horse is tense.

I think a lot of people think that the only alternative to 'above the horizontal' as it were, is behind the vertical
 
Well, head carriage is sort of important. If the head is up and the horse yakking, the back must be down and the hind legs trailing. If the horse is forced into rollkur it may (or may not) be causing long term physiological damage to the animal. If it is BTV it is technically not correct according to BD rules. If its nose is trailing in the dirt, it's probably a reining horse.

Nobody is saying it is the be all and end all of a well trained horse, or that the way to correct head carriage is by focussing on it in isolation (or indeed, by contact itself), but to suggest we shouldn't care about it is bizarre.
 
Surely the aim is for us to use (and hopefully improve) the horses natural way of carrying themselves? Watching our youngsters playing together, they drive on from the back, using the head and neck to balance. Obviously the weight of the rider will impact on that natural movement, but I would have thought that it was incumbant on the rider to utilise the horses natural movement and ability. I watch ours extend and collect at will and am still idealistic enough to hope that we will harness that, rather than impose uncomfortable restrictions by working against their natural movement. I am beginning to think that Sylvia Loch should be required reading!
 
Someone asked if I disregarded head carriage . The answer is most of the time - yes. It's the last piece of the puzzle. In my experience ( and I've trained up to GP )If everything else is in place it just happens on its own. I insist on good equal contact on a straight line, and hips behind shoulders add impulsion and you've got the start of great self carriage and work of the whole top line. I think of the horse as a whole . So I only ever think of head carriage as part of the whole.

The only time I have ever ridden for head carriage is on my GP horse, in competition, to get his head up more into a shorter frame... As he liked to duck behind the bit in piaffe and if I didn't ride his head up I got a pants transition to passage...
 
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