So National Trust have voted to ban trail hunting because …

[GSD Woman]

That is a very different scenario to the one you used just now. If you are witnessing illegal hunting then recording that would be the most obvious action. If you physically intervene there is a strong likelihood that you will cause issues for either fox or hounds (ie intervention by spraying hounds, calling them away onto a road for eg or causing the fox to change direction/distract a fox from it's natural evasion of a predator). At that moment in time, if hounds are chasing a fox, under the current law which I know is a disaster you may or may not be able to identify whether that fox is being deliberately hunted (ie the huntsman is totally aware of hounds chasing that fox) so whilst it is fine to record that, you may not actually be recording a crime. But that may well cause other issues. I think it must be vanishingly rare to witness that actually but at the point you could be certain that a fox was genuinely in danger, it would probably be too late to make any decisive, safe intervention I think. I can't quite imagine how you could be in that situation, fully cognizant of the facts, the legality and in a position to save a fox tbh but I have never seen a sab in that situation and haven't seen hounds near a fox for years.

This is a problem and one reason why hunters feel and assert that the actions of sabs cause exactly those sorts of problems. I accept your point of view but I disagree with it.

ETA - I understand that for you the 'legality' of the situation we are discussing here may not be as significant as the welfare of the fox and I understand that. I respect your desire to protect that animal regardless of the legality of the situation which I have alluded to but that does cause issues of integrity. I accept that you may feel very, very differently to me on that. In the same way I feel it is dire that rats can be legally poisoned but I would not, ever enter someone's property and abuse them or break up their bait traps because of my beliefs and I probably would not also try to 'rescue' rats on a property where they were legally being baited with poison in spite of my very strong views on the matter.

 

[GSD Woman]

. At that moment in time, if hounds are chasing a fox, under the current law which I know is a disaster you may or may not be able to identify whether that fox is being deliberately hunted (ie the huntsman is totally aware of hounds chasing that fox) so whilst it is fine to record that, you may not actually be recording a crime.

If the monitors would be willing to watch the trail being laid that should show whether the fox is being intentionally being hunting.

 

[Tiddlypom]

If the monitors would be willing to watch the trail being laid that should show whether the fox is being intentionally being hunting.

That is what is already happening here.

The wise hunts with nothing to hide invite 'their' monitors along to film the trail being laid, and then later when hounds come along to be cast to try and pick up the trail scent. It also shows how well trained hounds can be called off instantly if they inadvertently go off piste after a live fox.

We do seem to have a sensible grade of monitors in these parts, though, as I've said before.

ETA

https://www.facebook.com/128753340878168/posts/1350209265399230

 

[Sandstone1]

That is what is already happening here.

The wise hunts with nothing to hide invite 'their' monitors along to film the trail being laid, and then later when hounds come along to be cast to try and pick up the trail scent. It also shows how well trained hounds can be called off instantly if they inadvertently go off piste after a live fox.

We do seem to have a sensible grade of monitors in these parts, though, as I've said before.

ETA

https://www.facebook.com/128753340878168/posts/1350209265399230

why cant all trail hunts do this? If they have nothing to hide whats the problem? If it works here why not for all hunts?

 

[ycbm]

This is being brought up by our Supreme Court. If it holds up the Texas abortion ban It will allow private citizens to sue anyone involved in helping a woman obtain an abortion.

I do think this correlates to the problems with trail hunting and sabs taking matters into their own hands. Film the violations without faking evidence and turn it over to the correct authorities.

It's been the case for a very long time that animal abuse prosecutions are done by the party that collects the evidence in England and Wales. It's normally the RSPCA but private prosecutions by the investigators, where animals are involved, are a long established thing here.
.

 

[Gallop_Away]

why cant all trail hunts do this? If they have nothing to hide whats the problem? If it works here why not for all hunts?

Completely agree this should be done by all trail hunts, but unfortunately as our hunt have discovered, to some sab groups it doesn't seem to make a difference.
I really hope what is happening in Cheshire is a sign that things are changing on both sides.

 

[Fred66]

It's been the case for a very long time that animal abuse prosecutions are done by the party that collects the evidence in England and Wales. It's normally the RSPCA but private prosecutions by the investigators, where animals are involved, are a long established thing here.
.

The CPS have ultimate responsibility albeit the RSPCA do bring the prosecution directly in some instances. However they are changing (have changed?) their policy and are to get the CPS to takeover this role, to allow them to focus on frontline work.

 

[ycbm]

The CPS have ultimate responsibility albeit the RSPCA do bring the prosecution directly in some instances. However they are changing (have changed?) their policy and are to get the CPS to takeover this role, to allow them to focus on frontline work.

The change of policy is very new and well overdue.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...stop-taking-animal-abusers-to-court-privately


.

 

[Clodagh]

The Cheshire article does highlight how much change will happen to trail hunts. Presumably they were only out for 2 hours as it only takes a few minutes to lay hounds on to a trail, gallop after them then stop and finish. I can’t see that teaching a young horse anything, no hanging around etc, like drag hunting it appears it’s unbox, gallop, home. I presume there was a drink had too.
I stopped as I think it’s impossible to replicate. That article has depressed me. I know it’s a positive that they were following the letter of the law but what’s the point? Presumably there’s already a Cheshire drag pack, so now there are two or three all doing the same thing.

 

[ycbm]

There was lot of hanging around in drag hunting I did, waiting while they laid the next trail. Doing that in the rain was one of the reasons I stopped going.

There are no Cheshire drag packs now. There were 2 and a bloodhound but they've all folded. There's huge pressure on land with all the big new roads, industrial estates around the airport and housing estates. I think they all began to find it too difficult for various reasons.
.

 

[Clodagh]

There was lot of hanging around in drag hunting I did, waiting while they laid the next trail. Doing that in the rain was one of the reasons I stopped going.

There are no Cheshire drag packs now. There were 2 and a bloodhound but they've all folded. There's huge pressure on land with all the big new roads, industrial estates around the airport and housing estates. I think they all began to find it too difficult for various reasons.
.

Fair enough. The one time I followed they galloped like loons, including back to the boxes. A brief halt in between for a drink (no complaints about that!).
So maybe if they are the only hunts in the area of any description they will get enough supporters to keep going.
As drag packs are if no benefit to landowners I can see that land use would be compresssd.

 

[Tiddlypom]

That FB post was from before the opening meet, so was presumably some sort of autumn hunting.

As far as I know, the Cheshire Hunt still seems to hunt a full day, with second horses etc. It certainly will be a different experience to the full fat pre ban fox hunting that you and I knew, Clodagh.

But surely a skilled trail layer can at least partially replicate the twists and turns of a live scent? It needn't all be a headlong gallop, need it?

The field is noticeably smaller than it was, but the decline started when the sabs got onto them a few years ago - no surprise there, and of course there's been Covid.

They often hunt, even now, very close to or alongside some of the major roads which criss cross the region .

 

[Clodagh]

That FB post was from before the opening meet, so was presumably some sort of autumn hunting.

As far as I know, the Cheshire Hunt still seems to hunt a full day, with second horses etc. It certainly will be a different experience to the full fat pre ban fox hunting that you and I knew, Clodagh.

But surely a skilled trail layer can at least partially replicate the twists and turns of a live scent? It needn't all be a headlong gallop, need it?

The field is noticeably smaller than it was, but the decline started when the sabs got onto them a few years ago - no surprise there, and of course there's been Covid.

They often hunt, even now, very close to or alongside some of the major roads which criss cross the region .

Hopefully yes the trails can be well laid. Trouble is anywhere tricky is likely to have a live quarry in it, so if you go through bits of cover and such like.
The main roads were terrifying in Essex and Cheshire must be even worse.

 

[palo1]

Hopefully yes the trails can be well laid. Trouble is anywhere tricky is likely to have a live quarry in it, so if you go through bits of cover and such like.
The main roads were terrifying in Essex and Cheshire must be even worse.

It is entirely possible to lay decent trails that don't result in long lines of galloping (though if people prefer that drag hunting can often provide that). There are several things that trail layers need to do though and they need to be pretty clued up to lay a decent trail. The drag or scent has to be lifted at times, raised, dragged, flicked and all manner of other things and that gives hounds a good test. 2 or 3 trails that may coincide or bisect each other also provide some good hound work as does the occasional long clear run followed by 'a problem' (ie drag lifted, taken through water etc). As just about anywhere in decent country could potentially risk coming across the scent of or actual live quarry, hounds need to be disciplined and there has to be support in place to communicate with the huntsman if hounds have gone astray. It is absolutely possible though the use of mounted trail layers I think makes for less complex (though more convenient) trails and is likely to be used where there is a sense that the mounted field want something faster/straighter. I don't really rate that myself but prefer a trail layed some hours earlier so that scent can be harder work, laid on foot. But that requires lots of work and committment from trail layers especially over a larger section of country. The way that hounds work and pick up on scent, in conjunction with climatic conditions does mean that hounds do have a degree of work to do and can achieve a more natural style.

Just my experience.

 

[cauda equina]

Coming across live quarry probably wouldn't be trouble if hounds were trained to follow an artificial scent
Do dragging hounds ever riot? Or bloodhounds?

 

[paddy555]

I utterly condemn illegal hunting and I feel disgusted that we have been dragged down with them. But I also feel sabs who behave like thugs towards riders, horses and hounds are no better...

I totally agree about the thug behaviour. I watched an example of it a few years ago. It couldn't be seen from the road only my field so they thought they were safe. If I had had a camera I would have filmed it and sent it to the police.
One guy on foot and 2 male riders. They had whips with long lashes and basically whipped him onto the ground and continued with the beating.
It was not something that just happened spontaneously. Whilst the sab shouldn't have been on the private land the riders deliberately rode over an empty field away from the hunt to administer this punishment.

Another sab I picked up from the side of the road where he was lying covered in blood, put him in the car and drove him out of the hunt. Certainly got some black looks for that but I was not prepared to leave anyone who was injured, rider or sab in that position.

I dislike both the sabs and the hunt equally. I don't support either and would just like them to all go away.

 

[palo1]

There was lot of hanging around in drag hunting I did, waiting while they laid the next trail. Doing that in the rain was one of the reasons I stopped going.

There are no Cheshire drag packs now. There were 2 and a bloodhound but they've all folded. There's huge pressure on land with all the big new roads, industrial estates around the airport and housing estates. I think they all began to find it too difficult for various reasons.
.

Yes, I have been drag hunting several times. Some drag hunts do a brilliant job but it needs skill to create a sensible day. My experience was that we usually met somewhere nice with chatting and drinks which was lovely and would then hack to the first line. We wouldn't usually see the first drag layer but as soon as hounds were on the line we were away - usually in canter or gallop over jumps. At the end of the first line or second, depending, horses were quite sweaty and excited but we would stop for a chat and photos for perhaps 20 minutes whilst new lines were prepared. I did not enjoy that part as I would prefer to keep my horse moving quietly. The same format would continue and whilst the access was lovely and company good it was a bit too much like a combination of team chasing and a fun ride (as in more nutters than a fun ride but less 'rules' than team chasing). Usually we would see the trail layer for the last few lines - it is very hard work laying trails that are to be followed almost immediately as hounds can pick them up very easily (especially when only, truly dragged) and then run like stink!! Great fun if you do want to gallop and jump and are not particularly interested in watching hounds. If I had a horse that could really mentally cope well with a full-on drag hunt (mine gets very wound up by knowing that he will be galloping a line) then I would probably prefer team chasing tbh. Bloodhounding tends to be a bit slower as bloodhounds just are!! That is great fun - a super craic and with a long history too. Bloodhounds are the most amazing creatures - I think we should all be glad that they are no longer used to hunt escaped prisoners etc lol.

 

[palo1]

Coming across live quarry probably wouldn't be trouble if hounds were trained to follow an artificial scent
Do dragging hounds ever riot? Or bloodhounds?

Yes they do, bloodhounds much less so I think because of their different nature and history but any hound can riot.

ETA - Managing bloodhounds is a whole other level of canine management magic; they are so big, so strong and so bloody-minded independent that anyone interested in training should try to see bloodhounds working. Total respect to anyone that can get 1 bloodhound to do what they are told, let alone an entire pack of them lol!!

I think the same can be said of Bassett hounds though I have never seen a working pack.

 

[Clodagh]

Yes they do, bloodhounds much less so I think because of their different nature and history but any hound can riot.

ETA - Managing bloodhounds is a whole other level of canine management magic; they are so big, so strong and so bloody-minded independent that anyone interested in training should try to see bloodhounds working. Total respect to anyone that can get 1 bloodhound to do what they are told, let alone an entire pack of them lol!!

I think the same can be said of Bassett hounds though I have never seen a working pack.

i have hunted with bassets. In my experience they can all just go and do their own thing and are a bit ‘independent’ .

As for riot of course any hound can. Many a dog can be distracted by a squirrel if hunting a ball .

 

[palo1]

i have hunted with bassets. In my experience they can all just go and do their own thing and are a bit ‘independent’ .

As for riot of course any hound can. Many a dog can be distracted by a squirrel if hunting a ball .

I can't imagine how much patience needed to manage more than one bassett hound. Probably a good thing they are generally, these days rather pampered pets. I have seen the French Petit Bassett (and Grandes) working but of course the French context is different.

 

[palo1]

i have hunted with bassets. In my experience they can all just go and do their own thing and are a bit ‘independent’ .

As for riot of course any hound can. Many a dog can be distracted by a squirrel if hunting a ball .

Yes, that would be the absolute issue with a 'recklessness clause' in the Hunting Act. As quarry species live anywhere and everywhere in the countryside it would be impossible to put hounds anywhere as that could be deemed 'reckless'. I could not support that as that would make any trail hunting impossible and in practice, illegal. It is a cynical and unhelpful suggestion to my mind. Either greater monitoring by an independent body or the use of non-quarry scent would make better sense and would seem fairer if changes have to be made. It is entirely possible for trail hunting to work within the law as even the sabs are recognising that and people are still having good days out and horses learning to cross the country.

 

[Koweyka]

A recklessness clause absolutely should be added to the act, I despise the word “quarry” ….foxes of course live in the countryside but there are certain areas they are more likely to live, coverts and woods are those places so is it not reckless pulling a trail through or very close to these places when anyone and his wife knows foxes are more likely to live ?

Why would hunts want to risk killing an animal just so they can continue to have an “authentic” experience.

This is where the hunting mindset has to change.

 

[Clodagh]

Yes, that would be the absolute issue with a 'recklessness clause' in the Hunting Act. As quarry species live anywhere and everywhere in the countryside it would be impossible to put hounds anywhere as that could be deemed 'reckless'. I could not support that as that would make any trail hunting impossible and in practice, illegal. It is a cynical and unhelpful suggestion to my mind. Either greater monitoring by an independent body or the use of non-quarry scent would make better sense and would seem fairer if changes have to be made. It is entirely possible for trail hunting to work within the law as even the sabs are recognising that and people are still having good days out and horses learning to cross the country.

I agree with what you say about non quarry scent but tbh hounds, I’m sure, can tell old bottled fox pee from live fox as clearly as they could tell aniseed from same.

 

[palo1]

I agree with what you say about non quarry scent but tbh hounds, I’m sure, can tell old bottled fox pee from live fox as clearly as they could tell aniseed from same.

Exactly. This was a point I made earlier; hounds have some of the most astonishing noses and would certainly know the difference between live and bottled; totally different.

@Koweyka - I didn't mean to offend with the word 'quarry'.

 

[ycbm]

Coming across live quarry probably wouldn't be trouble if hounds were trained to follow an artificial scent
Do dragging hounds ever riot? Or bloodhounds?

I have seen (and heard!) drag hounds pick up a fox scent at a check several times. Each time they were called off before they got more than 100 yards. It was obvious they were on the scent of a fox because of their excited voices and also because when they were put on the trail we went in a different direction.

I've seen a lamb killed that was grazing directly on the trail. Why anyone thought it was a good idea to lay a trail through spring lambs I don't know.

Other than that I can't recall any inability on the part of the huntsman and whippers in to control the hounds.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Going back to the governance of hunting.

Any changes yet at the top at the Hunting Office or the Countryside Alliance, barring Mark Hankinson stepping down?

Or is it same old, same old?

 

[Fred66]

A recklessness clause absolutely should be added to the act, I despise the word “quarry” ….foxes of course live in the countryside but there are certain areas they are more likely to live, coverts and woods are those places so is it not reckless pulling a trail through or very close to these places when anyone and his wife knows foxes are more likely to live ?

Why would hunts want to risk killing an animal just so they can continue to have an “authentic” experience.

This is where the hunting mindset has to change.

You might not like what a recklessness clause brought.

The only way to ensure you avoided this charge would be to demonstrate you had done everything to avoid accidentally hunting live foxes and this would likely result in sending terrier men in the week before as well as shooting as many fox as possible.

 

[palo1]

You might not like what a recklessness clause brought.

The only way to ensure you avoided this charge would be to demonstrate you had done everything to avoid accidentally hunting live foxes and this would likely result in sending terrier men in the week before as well as shooting as many fox as possible.

Yes, that could well be an unintended consequence of that clause. It could also lead to all sorts of difficulties for other kinds of dog handlers and enable a possibly never ending flow of vexatious claims of recklessness. I can see why it would work from a sab point of view but it would undoubtedly affect all manner of other things and would not work in any way to reduce sab/hunter tensions nor would it protect foxes or anything else. I don't think the police or courts would find it at all workable or useful in strengthening the Hunting Act.

ETA - I currently only have one dog but if I had three and was walking on my own land which has hedgerows and trees/wooded bits and my dogs killed an animal, potentially my anti-hunting neighbours could assert that I was reckless in allowing them to enter 'the kinds of places where foxes/other animals live'. Would that also not be applicable to city dogs chasing squirrels in a park? (though dogs very rarely catch a squirl!!). I think that is even less helpful than the current very 'interpretable and woolly' Hunting Act tbh.

 

[J.Tiernan]

Palo1 earlier in this conversation you tried to suggest that sabs will go after drag hunts and used a metro article as proof.
I think the metro got confused, Jane Goring did go on drag hunts, but she also went out on trail hunts. The incident where she beat someone round the head was whilst she was riding with the East Sussex and Romney Marshes, they do hunt and kill foxes. Which was evidenced by a drone a couple of years later.
https://www.kentonline.co.uk/romney-marsh/news/fox-may-have-been-dead-claim-hunt-216162/
I don't know what every sab group gets upto, same goes for hunts, but my understanding was that only a handful of hunts are properly trail hunting and not having "accidents". Those hunts are known by sab groups and frequently now monitored covertly to see what goes on when no one is watching, this only takes a couple of people and it means the rest of a sab group can get on with stopping another hunt.
With regards the claims that sabs attack animals, it's ridiculous, the only footage you have to back up this claim, is a single incident of someone spraying a hound. That shouldn't have happened and the fact that you don't have any more footage from that group or any other group would suggest to any impartial observer that it isn't happening.
Thats not the same as saying "oh look only a few convictions for illegal trail hunting so only a few people are doing it" the evidence that fox hunting is still going on is widespread and weekly throughout the season, just go and look on the hunt sabs fb page.

Some of the "whataboutery" well what about salmon farming, all of us are against that aren't we? but it has nothing to do with the issue at hand of trail hunting being a smokescreen for fox hunting, which has now been evidenced and accepted in court.

 

[Koweyka]

Palo1 earlier in this conversation you tried to suggest that sabs will go after drag hunts and used a metro article as proof.
I think the metro got confused, Jane Goring did go on drag hunts, but she also went out on trail hunts. The incident where she beat someone round the head was whilst she was riding with the East Sussex and Romney Marshes, they do hunt and kill foxes. Which was evidenced by a drone a couple of years later.
https://www.kentonline.co.uk/romney-marsh/news/fox-may-have-been-dead-claim-hunt-216162/
I don't know what every sab group gets upto, same goes for hunts, but my understanding was that only a handful of hunts are properly trail hunting and not having "accidents". Those hunts are known by sab groups and frequently now monitored covertly to see what goes on when no one is watching, this only takes a couple of people and it means the rest of a sab group can get on with stopping another hunt.
With regards the claims that sabs attack animals, it's ridiculous, the only footage you have to back up this claim, is a single incident of someone spraying a hound. That shouldn't have happened and the fact that you don't have any more footage from that group or any other group would suggest to any impartial observer that it isn't happening.
Thats not the same as saying "oh look only a few convictions for illegal trail hunting so only a few people are doing it" the evidence that fox hunting is still going on is widespread and weekly throughout the season, just go and look on the hunt sabs fb page.

Some of the "whataboutery" well what about salmon farming, all of us are against that aren't we? but it has nothing to do with the issue at hand of trail hunting being a smokescreen for fox hunting, which has now been evidenced and accepted in court.

Hallelujah ?