So were the posters who backed Jamie Gray "Trolls" ?

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Legend had it spot on really. He wasn't convicted for ALL the horses only specific ones.

But like say.........you ad a stud farm of wonderful healthy beasties, and one was left to starve/neglected...........they would be charged for that neglected one, but just because they have other healthy ones doesn't make them less guilty.

But still..................why would anyone want to have over 100 horses?!
 
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Presumably we will see Mr Gray bringing a case against the lawyer who told him not to say anything at interview.

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Isn't that just that just a tad bit unreasonable?

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Surely anyone in their right mind who believed they are not guilty would realise that they have to answer questions to prove their innocence

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Of course they realised they would have to answer questions at some point. I dont suppose they thought that by going no comment the questions would disappear.

They went no comment because they were told to.


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and if the advice given as Patty has said on many occasions caused their downfall then the sensible option for the Grays is a legal claim against the lawyer.

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So the evidence they produced in court proving their innocence means nothing because the fact that they made no comment interviews means they are guilty?

Each accusation made by the RSPCA fell apart with each piece of evidence Mr Gray provided - but hey, they went no comment in an interview with the RSPCA so therefore, they MUST be guilty?

And you think that it is totally fair to dismiss their evidence on this basis alone?


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I am trying to keep an open mind although I know exactly my thoughts but there are clearly one or two people supporting the Grays. I fortunately have faith in the legal process and am happy with the result.

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You have an open mind but are happy with the result?

That does not seem very open minded to me.

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In 18 years of horse ownership and 5 years in one of the largest equine hospitals in the country I have never heard of one horse drop dead from worms let alone the number claimed in this case. Surely Mr Gray must be the unluckiest horse owner ever!

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I'm not sure about him being the unluckiest horse owner EVER. But I most certainly do believe he is unlucky.

If you look through the thread you'll see information about the worm situation.

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As a point of interest, why haven't the Grays or Patty with their exposure to the allegedly healthy horses and well bedded pens been able to produce any images of these?

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I posted the photos last year but I'm no longer in possession of them, but I hope to be very soon.
 
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At 14 years old I was fully capable and totally responsible for looking after my own horse - Dad paid for it - I got on with it. Had the horse needed the vet - I'd have called the vet and dealt with any potential fallout later. My horses welfare would always come first. Everyone I know with animals agrees they qould rather waste a callout being on the safe side than risk their animal's health.

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You are missing the point. I'm not saying he is not capable of looking afer horses. but in the eyes of the judge he is guilty of crimes which would need huge finacial backing to prevent. How is a 14 year old boy supposed to meet such financial needs?

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At 10 years old I was helping run yards, perfectly capable of letting people know if there were problems and asking for help when needed and knowing when you needed the vet.

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And you picked up the bill when they needed a vet?

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How many farming families have kids responsible for large amounts of livestock on a daily basis as they are brought up to do so and help out?

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How many of those kids are financially responsible for those large amounts of live stock?


Dont you think it is rather unreasonable to expect a 14 year old boy to have the funds to care for 100+horses?
 
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excellet point gingernags i was the same as you i 2 had my ponies from an early age and would muck them out etc before school and i knew that if they were not looked after properly then they would go!!!, at age 14 there is no doubt in my mind that you know right from wrong this has been proven at a much earlier age (the jamie bulger case??) so age imo is not an excuse for gross negligence

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And you were financially responsible the 100 + horses that were not yours?
 
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He was 15 when the raid was !
James John Gray (05/09/63) of Spindle Farm, Hyde Heath, Amersham, Buckinghamshire; Julie Gray (24/05/67) of Spindle Farm, Hyde Heath, Amersham, Buckinghamshire; Jodie Gray (12/09/82) of Spindle Farm, Hyde Heath, Amersham, Buckinghamshire; and Cordelia Gray (29/05/88) of Spindle Farm, Hyde Heath, Amersham, Buckinghamshire are due to appear at Banbury Magistrates Court at 10am on Tuesday 13 May.

They face 12 charges related to section 4 and section 9 of the Animal Welfare Act 2006 and cover causing unnecessary suffering to and failing to meet the welfare needs of a total of 125 equines, removed between 4 and 12 January 2008.

A 15-year-old male, who cannot be named for legal reasons, will also be facing charges in connection with this case."

Patty go back where you came from,you are tedious now with your cr@p and page after page with quotes that is most likely rubbish, you know nothing and is just trying to stall things since people are starting to see through you realizing that you are fake.....and don't waste your time quoting me since i can't read it since you are on my ignore !

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Well well isnt that brave of you!! You come down from your fence have a jab but the quickly jump back up on the fence so the favor is not returned.

I know nothing - Like I didnt know Baskerville an Katie Robinson were JG vets? This fact you strongly denied along with the fact that Katie Robinson issued health certificates?

YOU are the only FAKE around here PW.

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And yo,ask the Gray's why they kept the barn with the thin and starved ponies/donkeys locked when Katie,Bob or R.S.P.C.A came for their visits,no wonder that no one was aware that they were on the farm !!!! Everyone knows that they can ONLY report animals that they can SEE !!!!!!!

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Thats bull - all the barns are together divided into large pens by walls low enough to see over, with all open fronts and cattle gates. Nothing can be hidden. So dont bother trying to dribble your lies to me.

You are wrong about JG junior too. At the time of the raid he was 14.
 
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I have followed this post and I still believe the conviction is just.
If there was any evidence to prove otherwise I would presume that this came up in the court case and the judge had seen this evidence, yet they still got a conviction.

If the Grays are appealing against their conviction then they will need to produce something to prove that they did indeed provide appropriate veterinary care, food and water.
Just because the animals are "stock" animals this does not mean that it is ok not to care for them appropriately.

I do find it unusual that patty is privvy to all this information about the Grays yet has no connection with the Grays.

Sorry but the video/photos say it all.....if you could produce video/photos showing the opposite then that would be very interesting to see.

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Irrefutable evidence was provided by Mr Gray which proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that the accusations against him and his family are indeed incorrect.

I am waiting on some photos which I was hoping to have within the past couple of days but unfortunately this is not going to be possible just yet. I did post photos last year but my computer crashed and I'm still waiting for data to be transfered. So I will post whichever set comes back first.
 
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Anyone else think we should alert the media to this thread, so they can dig and see what they can uncover? They will probably be able to find out who Patty is (if they don't know already) and so they can speak to them about their uncovered evidence and get to the bottom of whatever is supposedly going on?

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Please be my guest.
 
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Absolutely, one of my friends used to be a hack on the Mail on Sunday.

I remember asking her about some of the interviews and she told me that all the tabloids employ private detectives.

I doubt if they would have any trouble hacking into HHO to find patty's ip address.

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They probably would not have a problem finding my address but I dont care because I have nothing to hide. So toddle along and go tell your friend to start hacking away.
 
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patty

your quote: "I have taken several unexpected visits to the yard of SF"

So are we to assume that Jamie Gray welcomed you with open arms and let you walk around the yard & fields...???

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JG was not always there and I never went alone. But when he was there he barely said 2 words to me personally. He came over as a rather quite man.
 
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However, no-one knew how long he had owned those emaciated or dead animals.



Sadly, it does not appear to make any difference. He is guilty in the eyes of the nation. And it obviously didnt make any difference in court."

<font color="red"> </font> How long had he had them patty?

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I cant remember the exact dates he gave for each animal and I have not got my notes with me but I can remember that most of them he only had for a very short time. He brought them over the space of the couple of months leading up to the seizer. There was either 2 or 3 that he had for longer (I think one was a stallion). The pets he had even longer. One as long as 16 years and another for 12 years.. A mare called blondey and a little stallion called Billy. The years he gave to Billy and Blondey stuck in my mind because they are older than half of the Grays children. Yet according to the RSPCA they were being starved.
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And if you were so interested, why miss the penultimate day of JG giving evidence, surely that would be the pinnacle of the case, his one chance to defend himself and you missed it?


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I'm not sure where you got that idea from?



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Somewhere in these 18 pages you stated that you did not hear JG give evidence, so thats where that idea came from.....

Yes you are definately a minority, as I still cannot see what there is to gain from your little adventure, other than the fact that you've got nothing better to do!!! Your choice, but at the end of the day, Judgement has been passed and the verdict was guilty...... No doubt if there has been a huge miscarriage of justice, there will be an appeal..... we'll just have to wait and see!!!!

And why on earth re register as someone else, when your still registered as Myjack???

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I have never said that I didnt hear JG give evidence. He was the main person I wanted to hear give evidence.


I'll delete myjack account.
 
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Well,somewhere in these 18 pages or another thread Patty has stated that she has never been to the farm nor meet J.G.

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More dribble!!

If I had stated any such thing YOU for sure would have pounced on me like a vulcher.

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I do have a life and do not have the time to go through it all ,find it and do the quote,

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No worries - if it's there I'm sure someone will find it sooner or later.
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and also how does a mother and wife of a successfull business man have the time to sit up all night and write on a forum ?

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For someone who has me on ignore because you dont wish to speak with me, you sure have a funny way of showing it,
But my answer to you is - I do what I like and answer to no one. Least of all - YOU.
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I am also that and when night times comes I am in bed so that I can be alert the next day !!! Nope pieces does not fit I am afraid,

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Oh well - I'm not bothered if you believe me or not. Not a problem!!
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Patty is here late afternoon/early evening and in the middle of the night,on 1 or 2 occasion she/he/it has been here in the morning,which makes me think that she sits in another country with a huge time difference,and has therefor not been in court.

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Believe your own hogwash if you wish - again, not my problem!!
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Having plowed through all 21 pages of this now, nothing that has been said (and repeating it ad nauseum hasn't made it more believable Patty) has made me think that JG is anything other than a sad little man who had far too many horses to deal with, and ended up not looking after any of them properly. The sad fact is that the horses were badly neglected and some paid the ultimate price. Whether you are an RSPCA fan or not (I have mixed views) at least they have tried to make sure that someone is being held responsible for the desperate conditions these poor animals were forced to live in. The buck can be passed, and fingers pointed, and lies told but in the end, he was found guilty by law. The law may not always get it right, but in this case I think it has. As owner of the horses he is to be held responsible for their health and living conditions whether he has owned them for a few days or 16 years. If he had owned a horse for 16 years then it suggests that the conditions were not always that bad. If something had happened (money, time, too many horses on too little grazing etc) then that is perhaps a reason why things had got so out of hand. It does not excuse the conditions though, and perhaps now he will look back on the whole sorry story and wish he had done something about it before things got so extreme. I am no fan of JG (as I expect few animal lovers are) but as a VN (for nearly 20y) I have seen how conditions can get out of hand (dogs with matted coats, long nails, rabbits with maggots from dirty cages, over populated hamster cages when Tim and Tom turned out to be Tim and Tammy etc) without the owners meaning to be cruel. This still doesn't mean it is acceptable, but there is a difference between down right animal cruelty and cruelty though neglect or lack of knowledge. I have seen people leading strong horses in from the field in a Chifney, and I have seen horses with horrific mouth injuries from having the same Chifney too roughly handled. The owner did not mean to break the horses lower jaw and was mortified at the damage she had done. But she did it with her own hands. How many obese dogs are there out there ? I notice that the RSPCA has just prosecuted an elderly man for the obese state of his collie - the old man struggled to walk the dog, fed it tit bits all the time and didnt clear up it's poo from the house. The dog was removed and has now lost weight. But the man also lived in the house with the mess and the poo, and is devastated at loosing his only companion. I have held a horse while it was humanely destroyed after being attacked by thugs with a knife. There is a story in the Mail about a bloke throwing his dogs into the sea before hauling them out after their "exercise" and taking them home. All of these cases sickened me, but the motives and situations are different.

If JG started out as an animal lover and owner of horses who were looked after and cared for, how very, very sad that things ended up like they have with horses dead, dying, injured and malnourished. I hope he is ashamed of himself, and of his family in their participation.

I believe in karma. I hope that Jamie Bulgers killers will suffer as he did. I hope that Baby P's Mum sees his little face every day of her life and is reminded that she allowed it to happen. I hope the lads who caused the young horse to drown at Appleby dream of his thrashing legs and terrified eyes. I hope the old man with the obese collie manages to improve his own standard of living. I hope the man who's 2 year old son was killed in the fairground learns to live with this terrible accident and realises it was just a terrible accident.

I hope that the rescued horses find new homes where they will be loved, treasured and looked after for the rest of their days.
 
I can't believe that Patty has spent another night quoting ,crikey someone needs a life ,not even going to go so low to check what was written to/about me,most likely all twisted since Patty can't stand to hear the truth form other people since she knows nothing herself !
Now people,enough is enough,by feeding her we are going down to her low level,so lets all stop it!
 
Patty keeps banging on about the Grays no comment interviews effecting the verdict surely the whole point was Michael Fullerton, Richard Cherrill, Nigel Weller, John Parker and Ms Forsyth all said what the Grays weren’t able to say in court and they all defended them in the best way they could considering they all were trying to defend the indefensible that is, and with all that they were all found GUILTY after 51 days in a courtroom, surely that must indicate to even the strongest of JG supporters that they were obviously guilty as hell.
 
I agree with PW I can't understand why so many people are either replying to Patty or speak directly to her by asking her questions, it will only inflate her ego, anyway I expect she is sound asleep now and will be until midday, it’s her children I feel sorry for, she must neglect them an awful lot staying up until the early hours posting away about the RSPCA conspiracy and travesty of justice etc. Get a life girl and go and work in a charity shop it would be more productive.
 
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Patty please can you answer this as i have asked a few times and still no answer.

Im correct in saying that before this came to light you had never set foot on SF?

You never knew the grays before this came to light?

If this is correct how can you have facts that none were starved and none neglected if you never been there?

It seems that you have taken the words of the grays and others involved with no actual facts when you didn know of the grays or SF before this came to light.

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Also what facts and photos have you that the bodies were dug up.


Please patty could you answer this as have asked quite a few times thank you.
 
well i'm still waiting for confirmation of the legality of any burials.

if any horses were exhumed, then I'm wondering if it was on the order of defra etc

maybe we ought to be sending this thread to the local water board.

they may wish to have a little chat with the Messrs Gray
 
Mr Gray gave evidence that he wormed his animals before they came off his lorry.

Defence vet John Parker gave evidence that not alot is know about this and not alot of people know about it. Mr Peter Green didnt know too much about it and told the court that Mr John Parker was more experienced than himself.

If the above related to horses reacting badly to worming because they already carry a large worm burden it is hogwash. Any experienced horse perosn knows (and JG should certainly have known) that worming a horse that is potentially carry a huge burden (and you can often tell just by looking at them) has the potential to induce colic at least, and often more serious problems - which is why, when treating neglected equines, lower doses are often given over a number of days, and sometimes not until overall condition has improved to the extent where they can cope with it. Ideally, of course, equines of this nature should then be isolated for 24 hours so that they can shed their worm burden without immediately reinfecting other horses - I'm willing to bet this didn't happen either.

JG may have been able to prove that he purchased wormer - he cannot prove that he necessarily administered it at all(he could have just sold it on) or that he administered it correctly and in line with recommendations or in correct quantities for weight.
 
I am now beginning to agree with the person who said Al Fayed's conspiracy theory is looking more credible!!! 21 pages of mostly the same thing over and over again!!!!! Just like the endless pages before, repeating the same thing, saying they had proof.....

Well if there ever was a time to hold onto credibility, I'd get the proof and the data and the photo's and get them published NOW!!!! instead of constantly bleating on about the same old thing all the time!
 
If this Patty honestly isnt related to the Grays then im wondering if the Gray family are worried they have a serious stalker on their hands. Although she is defending them, who really goes to such lengths to defend someone they dont know.

If I was the Grays, I would be scared, very scared!
Having some woman constantly dig into my past and turn up at my home would be way worse punishment than anything the courts could dole out.
 
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I notice that the RSPCA has just prosecuted an elderly man for the obese state of his collie - the old man struggled to walk the dog, fed it tit bits all the time and didnt clear up it's poo from the house. The dog was removed and has now lost weight. But the man also lived in the house with the mess and the poo, and is devastated at loosing his only companion.


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The perfect example of what is wrong with the RSPCA.

Had the Cinnamon Trust become involved they would have gone to walk the dog. They would have ensured the house wasn't fouled by the dog. They would have provided companionship and friendship for the old man and his dog.

Why?

Because they believe that when people get too old or ill to cope they need help not condemnation. They work to keep the elderly and their (often elderly) pets together so that neither suffers the emotional distress of being parted from the homes and companions they have loved all their lives.

Would it have been beneath the RSPCA to help in this way intead of putting man and dog through this misery? Was the RSPCA inspector too proud to go in and do a bit of cleaning?

Perhaps so. And perhaps they could learn a lot from:

http://www.cinnamon.org.uk/
 
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I believe in karma.



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I wonder if there is a form of karma out there for those who lack the compassion to forgive people who make mistakes?

A form of karma that puts them in the same circumstances as those they condemn and sits back and watches to see if they can do any better?
 
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Mr Gray gave evidence that he wormed his animals before they came off his lorry.

Defence vet John Parker gave evidence that not alot is know about this and not alot of people know about it. Mr Peter Green didnt know too much about it and told the court that Mr John Parker was more experienced than himself.

If the above related to horses reacting badly to worming because they already carry a large worm burden it is hogwash. Any experienced horse perosn knows (and JG should certainly have known) that worming a horse that is potentially carry a huge burden (and you can often tell just by looking at them)

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You either haven't been listening to what has been said about this type of worm infestation or simply don't understand what has been said.

There is no evidence to be seen that a horse has encysted little red worms tucked away in his gut wall.

Most wormings will not touch the encyted form, but some will actually trigger their eruption.

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has the potential to induce colic at least, and often more serious problems - which is why, when treating neglected equines, lower doses are often given over a number of days, and sometimes not until overall condition has improved to the extent where they can cope with it.

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Again you have missed what has been said.

The five day treatment does not always work. The worms have developed a resistance to it.

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Ideally, of course, equines of this nature should then be isolated for 24 hours so that they can shed their worm burden without immediately reinfecting other horses - I'm willing to bet this didn't happen either.

JG may have been able to prove that he purchased wormer - he cannot prove that he necessarily administered it at all(he could have just sold it on) or that he administered it correctly and in line with recommendations or in correct quantities for weight.

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Talk about snatching at straws.

Yes, the RSPCA always try to tell the magistrates that proof of purchase of veterinary medicines or feed does not prove that the animal was given them. Not all magistrates are fooled by such reaching for straws in order to save a prosecution that was ill founded.
 
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