So -who advocates pain and / or beating to get a horse how you want him or her????

[Foxhunter49]

I do not beat horses, to me a 'beating' is a continuous thrashing done in temper. I will hit a horse if the situation warrants it and it will feel that hit or, couple of hits.

The thing is being able to read the animal. There is a difference between knowing when a horse is saying 'I am NOT going to do this' and 'I am not sure, give me a chance to look'

I majority of circumstances the former needs a crack and the latter needs time. Again, knowing the language, a horse that says 'I am not sure' can turn to 'I am not going to' and it is vital for the handler to know how to deal with that change and how to deal with it. Every horse is different.

One horse I knew was a heavyweight cob, Murphy. His owner hunted him but he would not load in either a trailer or a horsebox. I had witnessed people trying and saw how he relished the fight and always winning.
Murphy came to me whilst the owner was away. The one thing I was determined to do was to have him loading in a trailer. The owner had a trailer and he would load for feeding use the trailer as a shelter when the flies were bad but would not load when it was needed to go somewhere. I had my trailer in the middle of the yard, no partition and front open. I just had the horse in a headcollar. He walked to the ramp and then did his usual, set his neck and charges down the side. I just went with him and when he stopped I gave him a pat and a Polo turned him away from the trailer and represented. It took me 45 minutes to get him to walk through. By this time he was sick of Polos and disappointed that he had not had a fight. Next day it was 15 minutes and after that he was loading with only one or two charges past the ramp.

After that he would load reasonably well as long as the handler never got frustrated or annoyed when he refused to go in.
He went showing and ended up at HOYS.
We were going home and I left his rider and owner to get him ready for travelling whilst I went to collect some goods we had bought. As I returned to the car park so an ambulance came into the area. I immediately thought 'I bet that is to do with Murphy'
It was. When he refused to load others offered to help and took over. One man had a busted leg and another with his ear half torn off.
Murph was standing there I swear he had a grin on his face and certainly had the attitude of 'Bring it on!'
I put him back in the stable, we moved the trailer and 30 minutes later brought him out to load. We had a heck of an audience!
Murph gazumped past the ramp. When he stopped I praised him and gave him a Polo, after three attempts he just looked at me sighed and walked in.

Several people were commenting that it was not the way to load him as I was rewarding the bad behaviour. I had to agree I was but, as I pointed out he was in the trailer without anyone being hurt.

Reverse psychology works with horses as well as humans. Some horse will look for a fight and if you give it to them it will make matters worse. Give them nothing to fight against and not letting your heart rate change and you have won.
I do not mind how long something takes for the horse that need that time but, the one that is just taking the mickey will get a crack to let it know that I will not take nonsense.

It is knowing their language and having the confidence to being able to deal with it.

 

[Kaylum]

No never, never would. I had a fantastic relationship with my horse. Didnt ride him everyday but spent time with him teaching him to trust me. Did a lot of work in the school and we had a strong bond. So many people are after a quick fix. For example my friend sent her horse away for breaking. He was a big horse and she had done a lot of ground work with him, but he didnt settle in and they beat the hell out of him and asked her to pick him up. Just because they wanted to break him quickly and get the money. Instead of letting him settle in for a while.

When she got him back he was a total wreck. She decided to do it herself at home with the help of an instructor but he was so nervous and scared. In the end after spending time and patience, 5 years on and he is fantastic doing dressage, fun rides and long hacks.

People smack horses when they lose patience or dont know what else to do. Instead of saying why are they acting the way they are?

Having been through a terrible domestic situation that involved me getting beaten up on a regular basis, I know first hand what it does to the soul.

 

[Shilasdair]

I admit to having a Tb which doesn't load too easily.
My successful strategy has been to put a nice thick rug on her (with a nylon cover) then beat the living daylights out of the sides of the rug where it hangs off her, making as much 'thwacking' noise as I can muster with a schooling stick.
It only takes a moment, and she gets the hint that she might be next in line, and both she and the rug decide to load.
In an ideal world, I'd practice with her, but as I don't have transport at the moment, I can't.
So if you see anyone in July loading a horse in a HW stable rug...you know why.
S

 

[PapaFrita]

Oh, do keep up, Pommes Frites - read the RSPCA thread.
S

*sigh* Can't I do what other people do and just pluck a reply out of thin air, without referring to experience or actual facts?

 

[Cadfael&Coffee]

Lol@ Shils- genius!!

I'll have to try that one next time I have a b.tch of a naughty loader

 

[Wagtail]

I would never use a cattle prod on a horse. Sheer stupidity if you ever want a cooperative, happy relationship with your horse. Mind you, it seems that not all people on this forum are at all bothered about that. Thankfully they are in the minority.

 

[mystiandsunny]

Oh I love these threads - nowt better than a good argument lol! There have been rather a few on the same lines though recently.

If you're asking who advocates pain/beating to get a horse to do what you want, then the answer is everyone who has ever:

WHEN RIDDEN
- kicked a horse to make it go faster/keep moving
- given the horse a sharp nudge with a heel/spur
- pulled sharply with both reins when a horse is being a little strong and needs to stop
- done a one rein stop
- pulled against the horse with one rein to get it to turn when it's dead set on going elsewhere
- Used a whip/crop (they sting - that's pain)

ON THE GROUND
- used a lunge whip to tickle a horse that's not moving/is turning in on you
- given it a sharp shove or hit it to get the horse off your foot
- killed a fly on the horse (you have to hit it to do so!)
- given the leadrope a sharp tug when the horse stops/reaches down for grass and needs to keep moving

If you're asking who uses DISCOMFORT to get it to do what you want - everyone. That's how the whole system works.

Sorry - getting rather bored of the same discussion going round and round and round!!!

 

[marmalade76]

I do, sometimes. Flame's had her backside pasted on numerous occasions for saying she doesn't feel like getting it in the horsebox just yet.

Same here, I have tried all ways of 'asking him nicely' to get in the trailer, and he just takes the pee. After a couple of smacks on the bottom, he drags me up the ramp! I do still ask him to go in without a smack first, he doesn't get one unless he says no.

The only other time he got a smack (well, a few, actually) was when he kicked a hound

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

Tell me you are under age, BB. I was tempted to put you on 'ignore' but decided not to for the sheer entertainment value.

Sadly, underage she/he is not. No, BB is leader of an underground group called The Banned United Militia (BUM). Its aim is to start threads or make posts that intend to inflame/annoy/wind up/irritate/pi55 take other forum users. Their success is based on the guaranteed knee jerk reactions of less experienced users of this forum who are unaware of BUMs status.

 

[amandap]

Sadly, underage she/he is not. No, BB is leader of an underground group called The Banned United Militia (BUM). Its aim is to start threads or make posts that intend to inflame/annoy/wind up/irritate/pi55 take other forum users. Their success is based on the guaranteed knee jerk reactions of less experienced users of this forum who are unaware of BUMs status.

I've seen forums actually set up to do this sort of stuff. I suppose the group mocking and laughing at others must make them feel better about themselves. Well I suppose we all need reassurance and support, just so long as I don't have to read this sort of stuff or engage with peeps like this, I say let them get on with it.
I have no idea whether blazingsaddles post is correct btw just responding to it with my experience.

 

[ChesnutsRoasting]

amandap, should have put a wink. BUM is just a figment of my overactive imagination. I have no idea who BB is or who her minions are. I doubt very much they have the intelligence to initiate such a group and they will undoubtedly eventually turn on each other and disappear altogether.

 

[amandap]

Lol blazingsaddles. Your overactive imagination isn't so far off though. Sometimes forums usually private are opened so others can read what they are saying. I speak from personal experience here.

 

[Amaranta]

Meeeeee!
I smack mine if they need it.
Apparently, though, I'm just 'lucky' that they're all well behaved.
I think it's a deal better to smack a horse when it needs it, than to allow it to walk all over you, brand it as a 'project horse' and sell it on as someone else's problem.
I've seen this happen so many times...and have 'cured' a few 'problem/dangerous' horses with a quick smack and a reinforcement of the rules.
In the current market, the only future for a badly behaved, bratty horse is as meat.
S

At last! Some common sense!

I too get told I am 'lucky' with my horses both ridden and in hand, it seems some people think that horses are born with or without manners/schooling and it is the luck of the draw.

Whilst I have never ever beaten a horse, and certainly not in anger, I am not above giving a sharp reminder should one of them step out of line (which hardly ever happens tbh), it's called setting the boundaries - the self confessed novice OP should perhaps read a few books about horse psychology.

 

[lexiedhb]

Was there not a similar thread recently where many many posters have "beaten" horses in certain situations?

At the end of the day these are animals weighing hundreds of kg's, and like with some humans "nicey nicey" does not work with all, they need to learn respect in one way or another.......

Very few horse owners beat their horses/ prod them with cattle prods/ generally be mean to them for no apparent reason at all......

 

[Amaranta]

I do not beat horses, to me a 'beating' is a continuous thrashing done in temper. I will hit a horse if the situation warrants it and it will feel that hit or, couple of hits.

The thing is being able to read the animal. There is a difference between knowing when a horse is saying 'I am NOT going to do this' and 'I am not sure, give me a chance to look'

I majority of circumstances the former needs a crack and the latter needs time. Again, knowing the language, a horse that says 'I am not sure' can turn to 'I am not going to' and it is vital for the handler to know how to deal with that change and how to deal with it. Every horse is different.

One horse I knew was a heavyweight cob, Murphy. His owner hunted him but he would not load in either a trailer or a horsebox. I had witnessed people trying and saw how he relished the fight and always winning.
Murphy came to me whilst the owner was away. The one thing I was determined to do was to have him loading in a trailer. The owner had a trailer and he would load for feeding use the trailer as a shelter when the flies were bad but would not load when it was needed to go somewhere. I had my trailer in the middle of the yard, no partition and front open. I just had the horse in a headcollar. He walked to the ramp and then did his usual, set his neck and charges down the side. I just went with him and when he stopped I gave him a pat and a Polo turned him away from the trailer and represented. It took me 45 minutes to get him to walk through. By this time he was sick of Polos and disappointed that he had not had a fight. Next day it was 15 minutes and after that he was loading with only one or two charges past the ramp.

After that he would load reasonably well as long as the handler never got frustrated or annoyed when he refused to go in.
He went showing and ended up at HOYS.
We were going home and I left his rider and owner to get him ready for travelling whilst I went to collect some goods we had bought. As I returned to the car park so an ambulance came into the area. I immediately thought 'I bet that is to do with Murphy'
It was. When he refused to load others offered to help and took over. One man had a busted leg and another with his ear half torn off.
Murph was standing there I swear he had a grin on his face and certainly had the attitude of 'Bring it on!'
I put him back in the stable, we moved the trailer and 30 minutes later brought him out to load. We had a heck of an audience!
Murph gazumped past the ramp. When he stopped I praised him and gave him a Polo, after three attempts he just looked at me sighed and walked in.

Several people were commenting that it was not the way to load him as I was rewarding the bad behaviour. I had to agree I was but, as I pointed out he was in the trailer without anyone being hurt.

Reverse psychology works with horses as well as humans. Some horse will look for a fight and if you give it to them it will make matters worse. Give them nothing to fight against and not letting your heart rate change and you have won.
I do not mind how long something takes for the horse that need that time but, the one that is just taking the mickey will get a crack to let it know that I will not take nonsense.

It is knowing their language and having the confidence to being able to deal with it.

That is a really interesting read - thank you!

I agree, the trouble begins when a person fails to read the horse properly and cannot tell when a horse is genuinly frightened or is just taking the mick. Too many jump for the whips as they do not have the wherewithal to think out the situation and whilst a short sharp crack will get the cheeky horse loaded, all it will do with the frightened horse is make it associate pain with loading and, although they may load this time, the next time you try to load it will be worse, so you hit it a little harder and a viscious circle sets up.

 

[unicornleather]

Sadly, underage she/he is not. No, BB is leader of an underground group called The Banned United Militia (BUM). Its aim is to start threads or make posts that intend to inflame/annoy/wind up/irritate/pi55 take other forum users. Their success is based on the guaranteed knee jerk reactions of less experienced users of this forum who are unaware of BUMs status.

LOL!
Oz

 

[eahotson]

There is a LOT of abuse in the horse world.An old (and successful) showjumper trainer used hose pipe (across the ribs) to SWEETEN a horse.His words.I have seen kids beaten too because they made a mistake in the ring.My wonderful horse driver instructor (competed to a very high standard, broken in all manner of horses and was wonderful with dogs too) never raised his VOICE let alone a hand.Seemed to get plenty of respect though and horses left him with wonderful manners.My lovely instructor (Badminton, affiliated showjumping,affiliated dressage, British eventing coach) says that violence is NEVER acceptable.

 

[cptrayes]

My lovely instructor (Badminton, affiliated showjumping,affiliated dressage, British eventing coach) says that violence is NEVER acceptable.

Does your lovely instructor ever:

tie her horses head to the saddle or girth to keep it where she wants it (they are called "side reins").

pull the mane or tail of a horse who would not stand still to have its mane or tail pulled if it was not tied up

shampoo and wash a horse that wouldn't stand still to be washed if it was not tied up

cut the whiskers off a horse when they are needed for evaluating their environment

sedate or twitch a horse to shoe it or clip it

plait a horse so tight that if it bends its neck you can see the hair straining at the roots. Sometimes the hair root is so stressed it falls out, like human extensions done too tight

rug a horse right through the year just to keep its coat shiny and flat

turn horses out singly so that they won't hurt each other in play

keep a horse that has worked its heart out doing a one day event standing jammed into a stall on the lorry for four hours waiting for either a prizegiving or another horse on the lorry to finish its class

keep her competition horses in because they are too valuable to risk hurting themselves, or in the mistaken belief that horses can't event from grass

????


I personally think all of those are "violence" in another guise. There is more to treating horses badly than giving a deserved slap with a whip.

 

[Wagtail]

Sadly, underage she/he is not. No, BB is leader of an underground group called The Banned United Militia (BUM). Its aim is to start threads or make posts that intend to inflame/annoy/wind up/irritate/pi55 take other forum users. Their success is based on the guaranteed knee jerk reactions of less experienced users of this forum who are unaware of BUMs status.

Ah, thank you. It all makes sense now. How sad.

 

[fburton]

my thoughts exactly - but who does agree to shocking to train????

Clinton Anderson, I believe - someone in a position to influence the thinking of many others.

 

[amandap]

I personally think all of those are "violence" in another guise. There is more to treating horses badly than giving a deserved slap with a whip.

I totally see where you're coming from here. I think the examples you have given are, possibly to some, examples of possible abuse rather than infliction of violence. To me violence involves pain, discomfort and a sharp often ill thought out physical response to a behaviour. Things like whipping, hitting, kicking, electric prodding, poking. Twisting skin and ears etc. to cause pain doesn't quite fit into my violence definition but are something I think is unnecessary in training.

 

[LaurenM]

Using electric tape to load a horse is disgusting in my opinion. A previous owner did it with my gelding. Everytime he sees a box attached to a car he starts getting worked up.

 

[Tnavas]

This could get interesting, I'm off to get doughnuts, anyone want any whilst I am there?!?

PLease - with jam in the middle - can't get them here.

 

[Muchadoaboutnothing]

Sadly, underage she/he is not. No, BB is leader of an underground group called The Banned United Militia (BUM). Its aim is to start threads or make posts that intend to inflame/annoy/wind up/irritate/pi55 take other forum users. Their success is based on the guaranteed knee jerk reactions of less experienced users of this forum who are unaware of BUMs status.

LMAO

 

[ischa]

I can't quite make sence of this thread but if I'm correct your asking would I inflict pain on my horses!!
The answer to your question is no , not I'n beaten wise anyway
Yes I use electric fencing , but I'n areas that are needed Unfortually if my horses get even one zap
They respect fencing so then I know longer have it I'n
, I don't beat with crops as gentle and clear asks are given and successfully completed by my horse
The only thing they get is a tap on shoulder
To remind them of manners when you have a 16.2 3 yr standing over you invading space you have to let them know its not right
Even now my horses are brought up with very little Punishment
As all my lessons are by ground handling given by clear asks and not confused ones
So know many asks are voice command

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

PLease - with jam in the middle - can't get them here.

Strawberry or raspberry? I prefer the chocolate and toffee filled ones myself!

 

[ischa]

Ekw if your on a bought doughnuts I prefer custard ones myself

 

[ischa]

About I mean bloody hell can't spell Again lol

 

[missyme10]

Not read all the replies, can't be arsed.

Another spin off thread worded in a way that doesn't invite good debate.

Very few on here would advocate abusive behaviour or cruelty, but a well timed smack, whether it be by hand or with a crop will have been used by most at some point.

I'm not away to let a 500kg pony push me around, i care to much to allow them to become bolshy and unmanageable, and to become like so many poor ponies ie. Badly behaved horrors that no one wants that get passed from pillar to post.

Mine all have good manners, because i treat them like horses, not humans!

 

[smiggy]

Can I just say that calling "tying up a horse to wash" an abuse is one of the most daft comments I have ever seen on here!
As long as I am not putting shampoo in their eyes and using warm water rather than a cold hose, I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect my horse to tolerate this.
My children would not voluntarily have a bath when very small but I feel I would have been in more trouble with the authorities had I not "abused"them by making them do so!