So who are these dangerous riders...?

siennamum

siennamum

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I have been musing over the threads relating to dangerous or poor riders, and the issue of perception.

Reading the threads you could be forgiven for thinking that you should only go XC when you are in perfect physical shape, on a horse who is uber fit, extremely well schooled by top trainers and who has the agility of a mountain goat.

I know plenty of people who - like me - are overweight, ride only moderately schooled horses who are also a bit ermm chubby, who have far from ideal positions, but who I would say are perfectly safe pootling round a 2ft 3 courses - and let's face it we all have to start somewhere.

The people I have seen eventing who look unsafe are reasonably rare, I've seen plenty of people who look a bit rubbish (like me), but wouldn't say they are dangerous. Usually they (we) just grind to a stop & go home mortified.

Regarding dangerous, I can only think of 2 actual instances both affiliated at PN.
1. teenage girl, ex Internation YR horse, best of everything that money can buy. Simply rode at every fence with no input or guidance from rider. I had images of trainer telling girl to just get the canter right, so girl just ran horse into the bottom of every fence, then horse slid nastily into a hanging log.

2. Woman on bold little TB, just galloped at every fence, again, no input from rider, horse kept missing by half a stride, horse hit a table & just managed to save itself.

What actual examples of dangerous riding have people seen, what kinds of rider were they?
 
I think to be really unsafe you need to be Sat on a horse with no self peservation, fast, who is going to keep going and jump no matter how its put at a fence.

If you have a horse that is just going to politely stop you'll probably be fine
 
As someone who stands by fences taking photos for a fair proportion of my weekends I would say it isn't so much dangerous as chancey-at least one in ten earns a sharp intake of breath on my part-occasionally because the horse has picked up off the contact-horse's decision-but mainly because the rider has ridden for a steeplechase stride and the horse has had to chip in. People are always calling for the return of stopwatches at all levels rather than novice upwards but when stopwatches were around it was far worse-now competitors ride in a better rhythm rather than going flat out and slowing down at the finish. That said when I hear certain names over the tannoy I know my heart is going to be in my mouth :eek:
 
I have seen a fair few at intro/pn when I have been FJ. Mainly riders that just sit there and let the horse do the work.

However a couple of really bad ones spring into mind. First was two years ago at ND, intro I think, a chestnut horse. I was at the second fence. Horse came wanging round at a flat out gallop, didnt think he was going to get very far. He then had a nasty fall about two fences later.

Other one was about four years at Oasby, I was in the SJ box. Cobby pony type thing about 15hh. The sj was appaling, it knocked loads down, was really sticky and got time faults. The rider wasnt much use either. However the horse was within the required penalties to go XC... so they did (made a point of looking out for this horse later on the scores). I would NOT have taken this horse XC, and I am surprised the TD didnt stop them from going - could have been very dangerous. Cant remember if they got eliminated or not.

The final one was three years ago at Burgie. I was FJ on both the "taster" event... some stupid woman literally rode her horse into a tree. My fence was a stone wall, with a log over the top of it. There was a tree half way across the fence - you simply had to choose which side to go (there was plenty of room). Woman literally galloped up to the fence and headed straight towards the tree, stopped, then turned round to me and said "has the course changed". Er not allowed to help you. Radioed TD, and then woman was removed from the course I believe, she had been having problems all the way around.

Also at Burgie in the bigger class... someone who should really have known better. My fence was a skinny roll top, then a 90 degree angle to a stone wall with a log on top, drop the other side. Many riders were coming at the roll top to fast. However there was one that jumped the roll top, then over shot the turn to the stone wall, ending up at in front of the stone wall, just on the other side of the flag. They then proceeded to jump the stone wall, taking half of it with them. My sister and I looked on in horror as this happened. My sister, not being very experienced at FJ, was doing as I said. She immediatly sprang up and ran over to the wall, as we were sure the rider would stop and want the vet for her horse. I was meanwhile on the radio and primed for calling the vet. Oh no. Rider just carried straight on; jumped the stone wall back over to "our side", then proceeded to jump the large stone wall fence and finish the course. (We were near the end.) My sister and I were dumbfounded by this - we literally just stood there with our mouths hanging open.
 
I've seen a fair few xc and as above often when fence judging. Too fast is the normal issue and the lack of knowledge how to ride a fence.

Take for example whilst walking my course at bicton last year the intro was on at the time. There is a sunken road which was fairly short in that you need a proper bouncey canter. I watched three horses through the intro one and all three approached far top fast but somehow got away with it due to clever horses, one took a stride out (cant remember if that meant it actually bounced it or not?!), speaking to the FJ they were far from alone. Has they approached the PN sunken road at that speed it would have ended in disaster as the steps in and out we're that bit higher!

So many other examples I have watched and sadly one did end in disaster as the horse was pts with a broken leg.

But I see bad striding decisions from pros as well as amateurs. I believe anyone should be able to go xc but they should be suitably educated for that level. Ie know how to approach a coffin/sunken road/ combination etc correctly and also how to ride out of the saddle which reminds me of the unfit horse and rider at Mattingly this year who somehow completed the baby course with multiple stops the horse literally almost walked over the finish line after crawling (literally!) over the last fence as it was totally exhausted and looked like it wanted to just collapse it was heaving that badly so what did the equally exhausted rider do? Yes that's right ride it back to the lorry park. I wanted to pull her off her horse.
 
as photo_jo says, usually it isn't dangerous the whole way around as much as chancey at certain fences.
people riding for really long ones from a strung-out stride and the horse chipping in at the last second, or even worse going to take off and THEN trying to add one. grim.
people who lose their temper. witnessed this a few years ago at LD, in N or PN, can't recall. we were FJ the trakhener near the end. A guy was riding round, dodgy/uncomplimentary comments about his riding from Fence Judges all the way round. Had a stop or run out or two at the water, which obv made him LIVID. He came wanging round the corner to us, driving the horse as hard and fast as he possibly could. somehow got a good stride to our fence (pure luck), carried on driving the horse hard and fast, got a total misser at the next fence (house) and put them both on the floor. served him 100% right, but i felt very sorry for the horse. the TD/TA said they'd go and have a word after I described exactly how he'd ridden it. Total idiot. (that's the polite version.)
riders on horses they can't control... obviously. seriously over-bitted horses which hollow and rush - so, they're in the worst position to see and measure the fences and to jump safely. especially if they are over-keen, hoiked back by the big bit, but then they see the fence and make a big bid for it in spite of the bitting. very dangerous.
actually i don't mind the 'leave it to the horse' sort of rider provided they are not trying to race round, have been taught to go in a rhythm and which 'gear' to ride x type of fence (and are trying to implement it!), and the fences are no more than 3' high. most horses can cope just fine with this... they know the ball is in their court and they think and act accordingly. but i saw a girl on a v wise horse at Keysoe N years ago, approach the 'coffin' a bit too quickly, clever horse backed himself off (just steadied, was never going to stop) a little and jumped through beautifully and neatly (HE knew how fast to jump it even if she didn't!!) and earned a few hard smacks over the third fence for slowing down. I would have smacked her with it if she'd been in reach! She had NO idea. Ggrrrr.
 
However, I am also sure I have probably looked like a complete and utter idiot before; I can think of a few instances.

Local 2ft6 hunter trials - Henry didn't like the look of the open rail spread thingy he was meant to jump, so he thought he would take himself off to the next jump. Which I supposed you have to give him some credit for thinking for himself. Trouble was the "next" jump he was about to tackle was a 3ft palisade, from the wrong direction. Trying to convice him to stop when he was convinced it was the next jump was rather difficult. However in all fairness to him, it was very close to the one he didnt like.

More instances on Henry, all at the same HT where we were in an almighty strop and didnt want to play ball. There was a steam that the idea was to walk in and out of it. Henry didnt want to get his feet wet so he stood at the side of it for a short time deciding what to do, then promptly cleared the lot of it - whilst I was hearing gasps from the FJ.

Another jump was a realatively simple small log inbetween post and rail fencing. Approaching it nicely, Henry decided to pull his trick of running out at the last minuite. Oh dear he then saw there was a fence in the way, and cleared 4ft instead of 2ft.

But the worst, and what made me really mad was there was another log around the course, set on some old cart wheel rims that were very rusty. By this time we were on the way home, and Henry was in a right tantrum because he just wanted to gallop home, so we kept on running out at the log, narrowly missing these rusty wheels by inches.

However on the other hand, the majority of the time Henry would go round an XC course behaving like a perfectly normal horse, and I wouldnt have looked like a right prat.

After the rusty wheel incident, I decided it was time for a change in bit, which helped wonders on the XC. However, previous to this YO basically dictated that my horse wouldnt be ridden in anything but a snaffle, and woe betide you if you put anything else in Henry's mouth.

ETS: following on from Kerry's comment - Henry was the type of horse who could simply adjust himself to suit what was in front of him. I can remember going to local SJ, where there was a double that really rode on more of a one pony stride than a one horse stride. No end of horses were having problems, Henry just read the problem, shortened himself up and cleared it without knocking anything down.
 
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The worst I've ever seen (& this was years and years ago) was at a Hunt 'Midnight Steeplechase' fund-raising event. There were teams of four who all had to negotiate a short, but fairly meaty XC course - all of which was 'temporary' (ie only used on this one occasion and not usually a XC course). Most of the fences were fair and straighforward and where there were more difficult fences there were options.

One team of four P2P jockeys set off like their backsides were on fire. The fence I was standing at was either a huge hedge (quickest route - and it was big), a yawning great ditch or a bridge over the ditch which required the gate to be opened and shut - very slow!

Anyway the jockeys came flying into the hedge (and I'm not kidding, at racing speed). The horse on the far side put the anchors on, napped right and said no and carried the horse next to it into the ditch. I was standing next to the ditch and heard his leg break (the horse, not the jockey).

We helped the horse get out of the ditch, vet was called and jockey checked over by StJA. Obviously we realised what had happened and asked said jockey who owned the horse because they'd need to give permission to PTS. He didn't know. Seriously, he didn't know who owned it. I was horrified - he knew literally nothing about it and had just been galloping at a 5 foot hedge!

Anyway, to cut a long story short, poor creature belonged to a dealer and apparently he had arrived from Ireland the day before.

Still makes me sick thinking about it - a pointless loss of what looked to be a nice horse, all caused by poor knowledge and riding.
 
I think this is the sort of thing that makes novice - and not so novice - riders think they're being judged. ;);););)

Everyone makes mistakes and gets into tight spots. The trick is to make those mistakes WELL within the horse's ability to recover. The less fit the rider, the less able the horse the more conservative everything else needs to be. It's not the people jumping 2' that frighten, it's the ones who get that done on a wing and a prayer then move up that do!

Again, the key is knowledge. Having a sticky moment, knowing it, and vowing to fix the hole is part of the process. It's the people who have terrifying trips then recount it as if it all went swimmingly that are most at risk. But then they think they're fine. . ..
 
As always, agree with TarrSteps. I would also say that, generally, I would like to see riders at lower levels being taught to ride in balance in a forward seat. How often do riders practise riding on the flat in a forward seat with shortened stirrups? Most only when they have an infrequent xc lesson. The fact that they are swinging off the horses mouth or on the saddle isn't directly dangerous per se, but it can contribute to sticky moments or worse.
 
Most dangerous riding I have seen lately was at PN BE. Slippy conditions, practically flat out gallop, horse slid over the ditch on its arse and how it recovered to jump it I don't know. Rider blithely flat out galloped into the next fence. The speed was a big concern - conditions were not good and even on perfect ground it would have been too fast.

I recently jump judged at an unaffiliated 2'6" class - there was some pretty crap riding but to be fair no one was going too fast and the horses just responded with a stop when they had been presented badly to the fence. Whilst the standard of riding overall was much worse than the PN class I watched - put speed and bigger fences into the equation and there is less room for error.
 
I knew a girl who is lucky to be alive & not paralysed. She'd previously had a lovely schoolmaster pony, the type that nannied anyone & basically jumped small xc himself. Girl had no idea how to ride a course, just how to be a passenger. She decided she would event & got a tb, who I would class as being the least natural jumper I'd ever seen. Sj it just ran through, the rare occasion it jumped it trailed its legs so much it would have 2' uprights down. So girl decided she would take it xc training, prior to a ode she had entered. Bearing in mind it couldn't get round a tiny clear round with a fence left standing. Apparently at the xc training it left its legs behind at a tiny log, fell & landed on her leg. Luckily although she had a broken leg, it was nothing worse. Horse had nothing major wrong either, & it was enough to scare her into having a bit more sense.
 
I think the worst decision making is at novice level. I expect PN to have mistakes as a great height to learn round but I guess I expect better at novice.

I am fascinated by imperceptible gear changes and watch hours of footage to see how the best do it. I think I am lucky as been really drilled about it by trainers.
 
TarrSteps said:
I think this is the sort of thing that makes novice - and not so novice - riders think they're being judged. ;);););)

Everyone makes mistakes and gets into tight spots. The trick is to make those mistakes WELL within the horse's ability to recover. The less fit the rider, the less able the horse the more conservative everything else needs to be. It's not the people jumping 2' that frighten, it's the ones who get that done on a wing and a prayer then move up that do!

Again, the key is knowledge. Having a sticky moment, knowing it, and vowing to fix the hole is part of the process. It's the people who have terrifying trips then recount it as if it all went swimmingly that are most at risk. But then they think they're fine. . ..
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Everyone I know who rides feel judged, so I think a pinch of paranoia is quite normal.

I wonder whether the people bimbling round a 2ft are a problem though. Most people I know who do this, are lacking the confidence/self belief to move up. they bimble at that level for years. Very often they are the ones who over analyse, have endless lessons with the riding club and spend a fortune in the tack shop on boots/BP's/ event grease & supplements.

It sounds like the ones who are dangerous, either are just riding with no care at high speed, or have no thought to riding a line or planning.

Those people sound like the sort who wouldn't jump lots of small courses but would go straight in at a level above their ability. They perhaps wouldn't take the training if it was ofered.....
 
siennamum said:
I wonder whether the people bimbling round a 2ft are a problem though. Most people I know who do this, are lacking the confidence/self belief to move up. they bimble at that level for years. Very often they are the ones who over analyse, have endless lessons with the riding club and spend a fortune in the tack shop on boots/BP's/ event grease & supplements.
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Sounds like me :p.

Everyone makes mistakes. I think people get away with it when they are doing small stuff, or they don't and then they get cross. I agree it's more of an issue with the people who don't have a clue moving up the levels. They are probably the sort who won't even spend time on a forum like this or care to read these threads so this is probably all pretty pointless other then to make the rest of us feel even more paranoid then we already do!
 
Firewell said:
Sounds like me :p.

Everyone makes mistakes. I think people get away with it when they are doing small stuff, or they don't and then they get cross. I agree it's more of an issue with the people who don't have a clue moving up the levels. They are probably the sort who won't even spend time on a forum like this or care to read these threads so this is probably all pretty pointless other then to make the rest of us feel even more paranoid then we already do!
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You are so right, haha
 
I like to think that, even though I wouldn't ever be brave enough to go 'proper' xc, I'd be the least dangerous person around. My horse only has to back off my leg and I'm ready to get off and go back to the box!! I need to grow a pair :)
 
measles said:
As always, agree with TarrSteps. I would also say that, generally, I would like to see riders at lower levels being taught to ride in balance in a forward seat. How often do riders practise riding on the flat in a forward seat with shortened stirrups? Most only when they have an infrequent xc lesson. The fact that they are swinging off the horses mouth or on the saddle isn't directly dangerous per se, but it can contribute to sticky moments or worse.
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Thats a really good point. I was taught to ride cross country by a very wise woman, who wouldn't let me, as an enthusiastic (read gung-ho) 13 yr old, jump a single fence until I had learned to balance with my jerks up. Endless w,t,c transitions in the school, with a gentle voice periodically saying "bottom up, chin down dear". It was a great skill to be taught, although I didn't appreciate it at the time. When I went to the Fox Pitts, the first comment made about me was that it was unusual not to have to teach someone to ride canter work.

I cringe when I see people going cross-country with their stirrups too long, out of balance, and banging on the horses back every stride. I'd be terrified coming into a tricky fence if I wasn't in a position 3/4 strides out, to re-balance the horse and give him the best chance of reaching the other side intact.

I'm a terror for seeing a longie and kicking for it, but console myself that I've usually set the horse up well enough that he can go off any stride!
 
Interesting! Just picking up on the point about riders competing above their ability and training level; don't all riders have to be a bit punchy in order to move up a level and isn't the idea to be competing at a level which is do-able, but hard? Some of the best riders in the world are out of their comfort zone to some extent and at various times during a 4* round, that's the point.

It's a fine line, isn't it. To progress, riders need to step outside their current ability level and consolidate at the next level up before stepping on again. I agree that those who run into problems at one level would probably be foolish to move up before fixing the issues, but to what exent are mistakes acceptable when a rider first makes the step up to a bigger level?
 
Who knows!! But they are everywhere and boy do they make you cringe:) But how much of it is down to the trainers, cant find the tread, think it was this week. Stating that there are a few too many trainers that just tell everyone how wonderful they are when they are clearly not.
 
Wench your Henry sounds a lot like my coloured horse. He was very gung-ho in his early days of cross country and I didn't get much say about how fast we went into fences, fortunately he has now calmed down a little and actually lets you set him up a bit rather than just madly galloping at everything. I am lucky in that he is extremely carefull so when we do get the stride wrong he still manages to get himself out of trouble. He is like Henry in that sometimes he will throw in a cheeky runout at the last minute but is generally already commited to jumping at this point so either ends up jumping the fence on an angle so making it harder for himself, or as we have found xc schooling before, discovering there is an even bigger fence next to it that he then has to jump instead! We've done a few BE90s this year and though I'm sure our rounds aren't the most elegant it's because we're still both learning. I certainly wouldn't dream of stepping him up until we're going consistently clear and happily round the courses we do currently.
 
Henry was a bit special at times; although it does partly relate back to the trainers thread, I should have had loads more lessons on him,

However, one of the last HT he did with me was where we did our first one. First time he was truly awful, he wad galloping off and running out something chronic, and even tried to nap back to the start.

Last time round it he was as good as gold and went went round thinking "yeeha"! He was excellent and jumped everything put in front of him, except the first fence as I didn't ride to it! This development was I think mainly due to all the match practise he had.

Although when I was galloping past jumps I probably looked more out of control that I actually was, as he was increadibly quick
 
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