So why aren't passports proof of ownership?

[Bigbenji]

Inspired by another thread and also having had a recent discussion about log books with my machanic!

We all know they aren't proof of ownership but why the heck not? All Horses have to have them, there is no better way to show the identity of horses as individuals and owners have their details logged anyway. Details should be changed at time of sale so why not include a copy of bill of sale at the time of changing thus proving ownership?

We pay enough for the blooming things so why not make them proof of official ownership?

Now am I over simplifying the passport system or am I right in thinking a small change in an already established system could bring to an end ownership disputes?

 

[be positive]

They really should be, they are the only proper documentation a horse will have, I have no bill of sale for some of mine, they have been with me for years yet they have a passport with a diagram and some are microchipped with details on the passport, as they are not required to prove ownership they have little value to the owner when it comes down to it but cost plenty to replace if they are lost.

 

[eggs]

I guess it is because the passport should be kept by the "keeper" of the horse which means the YM for part and full livery.

It does seem crazy to me though. Most of mine are homebred do I don't even have a bill of sale as proof of ownership.

 

[popsdosh]

They really should be, they are the only proper documentation a horse will have, I have no bill of sale for some of mine, they have been with me for years yet they have a passport with a diagram and some are microchipped with details on the passport, as they are not required to prove ownership they have little value to the owner when it comes down to it but cost plenty to replace if they are lost.

Yes and not your property either!!

 

[Bigbenji]

It is crazy. I understand the passport should be kept with the keeper/with the horse but it should not alter the ownership details in the actual passport.

Like another poster said it is the only official document a horse needs so why not make it have a proper use.

Breeders should be logged as official owners at time of first passport

 

[be positive]

Yes and not your property either!!

Another anomaly, we pay for them yet don't own them, not many things that we buy are not ours to do as we wish with when they are no longer required.

As a matter of interest does anyone know whether a cow passport belongs to the PIO or the farmer? having never owned a cow it just occurred to me are they under a similar system or are just horse owners discriminated against as usual.

 

[Bigbenji]

Good question Be Posative! Mooo idea tho! Ha sorry couldn't resist.

Think I may have to ask the BHS if they know if there is any reason as to why this can't be raised as a positive change to the passport system.

As they are trying to clamp down on fly grazing surely a no nonsense approach to those who fail to provide passports could be easier to enforce as ownership would be easier to prove or not as the case may be.

 

[popsdosh]

Another anomaly, we pay for them yet don't own them, not many things that we buy are not ours to do as we wish with when they are no longer required.

As a matter of interest does anyone know whether a cow passport belongs to the PIO or the farmer? having never owned a cow it just occurred to me are they under a similar system or are just horse owners discriminated against as usual.

They belong to BCMS which is the British cattle movement service. They are a lot tighter controlled than horse passports and the penalties for not complying with the rules are severe.
You have to by law apply for a passport within 28 days of birth, everytime the animal moves owner or sometimes to different farms with same same owner BCMS have to be informed within 72 hrs by both parties so one movement off and one on. When the animal dies the passport has to be returned after the death is reported electronically within 4days. The passport applications and all movements and deaths are reported by computer online through a secure system. We are subject to spot checks at any time without warning and they mostly check every animal on the farm and you get fined if there is any discrepancy between your records and passports againt records at BCMS. For example a farmer locally had a passport of an animal that was not present because it had died ,they got fined £9.5k

If we ever get a central horse passporting system in the uk (its a certainty) The governments preference is for BCMS to run that as well ,now theres something for you all to look forward to. I think you will agree horse owners get off lightly

 

[Bigbenji]

That's interesting poshdosh! I suppose the main difference is the food chain factor.

 

[popsdosh]

That's interesting poshdosh! I suppose the main difference is the food chain factor.

Generally people dont believe me when I tell them ,I have to grab a passport and show them. Its Real fun when you have 400 passports kicking about

 

[Bigbenji]

I completely believe it!

Do you mind me asking do you just get a fine if you fail to produce a passport? I know the horse passport have a fine if unable to produce but what with all the sad stories of starving/ dumped ponies I seem to read on a daily basis it just seems to be treated like a joke.

 

[be positive]

I completely believe it!

Do you mind me asking do you just get a fine if you fail to produce a passport? I know the horse passport have a fine if unable to produce but what with all the sad stories of starving/ dumped ponies I seem to read on a daily basis it just seems to be treated like a joke.

I suspect the fine for failing to produce a cows passport would be potentially huge, it is easier with cattle to identify them as they all have ear tags, like a number plate, so easy to verify unlike horses when it comes down to markings and a possible microchip that may not be found easily, dumping a sick cow would be difficult, dumping unwanted ponies seems to have become commonplace, sadly.

Thanks popsdosh for the answer, I guessed there was a central system as it is so tightly controlled.

 

[popsdosh]

You get a fine for not having a passport and there are no end of cattle that are shot and burnt every year because their passport does not match the animals. You have to check and double check every step because one mistake and thatr animal is worthless and unsaleable. On top of everything else there are three agencies that can check them. BCMS, Trading standards and the Rural payments agency.

 

[Maesfen]

You get a fine for not having a passport and there are no end of cattle that are shot and burnt every year because their passport does not match the animals. You have to check and double check every step because one mistake and thatr animal is worthless and unsaleable. On top of everything else there are three agencies that can check them. BCMS, Trading standards and the Rural payments agency.

Those of us that are practical and realistic enough would wish this was in place for many horses. I like my cattle passports, you know where you are with them.

 

[The Fuzzy Furry]

If we ever get a central horse passporting system in the uk (its a certainty) The governments preference is for BCMS to run that as well ,now theres something for you all to look forward to. I think you will agree horse owners get off lightly

It/when this does come in, the 1st year or more is going to be 'interesting'.
I'm quite keen to see similar to cattle tbh The only horse owners it will affect will be the back garden breeders, the hoarders and those who generally break the law with many other regs.

 

[jofwigby]

The current Passport system would have been great but it is NEVER enforced.

Trading Standards haven't got the will or manpower to act.

Exactly the same as the Animal Welfare Act - only enforced when the larger charities choose to get involved.

Horses get the ****** end of every deal - it would be great if a new system was enforced by an Authority that had some b****ks.

 

[Maesfen]

^^^^^ Need a like button for FF's post! ☺

 

[lelly]

I agree, passports should be made proof of ownership. The problem is from the fly grazing point, the owners of these horses don't bother with passports. The equine passport situation is a joke and really needs sorting out.

 

[Goldenstar]

Passports are a waste of time they always where going to be so .
Ditch checks apart from at slaughter .
Make it an offence to sell an unmicrochipped horse after the date enforce that clean up the horrible mess of unwanted dumped horses enforcement would cause .
Passports are horse identity documents the PIO's are ill suited and not designed to be issuing papers that count as a legal ownership documents .
The costs of making a watertight system to make Passports legal proof of ownership would be prohibitive .
Registration documents are proof of ownership for cars either they only make you the registered keeper.

 

[JillA]

Passports were intended to be a record of medication, nothing more. And they need to remain with the horse so that the medication can be recorded (not that my vet has ever asked for one) so that if a horse goes away on loan, the passport has to go with them. So not always held by the owner, although ownership details could be made to be definitive. That though means that extensive checks would have to me made on an application to change ownership, including serving notice on recorded owner = lots more expense.

 

[Maesfen]

following on from the cattle passports.
The old cattle passports were like a book; I still have one here. Gives owner's name and holding no/address, name, breed, dob, eartag number etc; anything you can think of to describe that animal except for an identity marking (sketch). date it went onto the holding/to auction etc and present owner had to fill it in quickly and return a card which was at the back of the book which gives date on to their holding and send that in to BCMS. All very simple, passport did not leave the animal but the central database always knew where it was; it's a shame horse passports don't have the same type of system in place; a tear out portion in the back of a passport that the original owner sends in after horse is sold.
The present system is similar except it's a page only that stays with the animal; you have to notify of changes electronically within a few days and also put your own holding sticker on it so even if animal goes to auction or a dealer, they still have to record the on movement and the off movement even if it's the same day (like at auction) sounds complicated but it's totally simple and very quick to do - and free which is the main bugbear for those having to update I think.

 

[Bigbenji]

Some great points here. One thing we all seem to agree on is, as it stands, the system is a joke.

As someone who does things by the book I have no problem with stricter passport controls as long as there is a no nonsense policy for those who fail to comply.

 

[crabbymare]

Its a shame the passport issuers do not all send a certificate of ownership the way the foreign registries do as that way there is no confusion about the owner and keeper of the horse. I suspect that a lot would get lost at first but would make it a hell of a lot easier to prove that loaners or yard owners were not owners if it came to it and would make the police take things a lot more seriously

 

[Merrymoles]

I completely agree with those who have said that they would rather see an, albeit more onerous, system like that for cattle. It would be a simple solution to fly grazing, horses killed by trains, horses being stabbed and left to die at the roadside and lots of those other horror stories we have had in recent months, all of which have the common factor that the owner has been unable to be traced.

My horse is microchipped and passported but the only proof of ownership I have is a tatty piece of paper signed by his previous owner recording receipt of the money I paid for him. I'm not sure it would stand up in court.

The last national database did not work but is the only answer. Horses must be passported when they are microchipped and failure to do either should result in a big fine.

 

[Peregrine Falcon]

Half of mine are home bred, so there's no proof! Passport system is a complete joke really.

 

[gmw]

I've never understood why vet (or whoever) doesn't have to sign, stamp or 'sign off' a horse/pony when pts. We in the last couple of years had to pts two of our beloved horses I produced the passport for the vet but was told it wasn't necessary. As has been said its just moneymaking and welfare of horses just does not come into it.

 

[budley95]

I wish they were proof of ownership. I brought Buddy 10 years ago and blinkin' lost his bill of sale in a house move - D'oh! So I'm stuffed if I ever need to claim on insurance for death or straying and so forth...

 

[Merrymoles]

I've never understood why vet (or whoever) doesn't have to sign, stamp or 'sign off' a horse/pony when pts. We in the last couple of years had to pts two of our beloved horses I produced the passport for the vet but was told it wasn't necessary. As has been said its just moneymaking and welfare of horses just does not come into it.

Yep - would seem common sense.

 

[Goldenstar]

I completely agree with those who have said that they would rather see an, albeit more onerous, system like that for cattle. It would be a simple solution to fly grazing, horses killed by trains, horses being stabbed and left to die at the roadside and lots of those other horror stories we have had in recent months, all of which have the common factor that the owner has been unable to be traced.

My horse is microchipped and passported but the only proof of ownership I have is a tatty piece of paper signed by his previous owner recording receipt of the money I paid for him. I'm not sure it would stand up in court.

The last national database did not work but is the only answer. Horses must be passported when they are microchipped and failure to do either should result in a big fine.

You presumably have the bank records of the cheque / bankers draught you paid with .
That's proof of ownership .
If the passport Was proof of ownership who fancies trusting an owner you don't know from Adam to update the document .
Who fancies leaving it at the livery yard .
I would not .

 

[DJ]

You get a fine for not having a passport and there are no end of cattle that are shot and burnt every year because their passport does not match the animals. You have to check and double check every step because one mistake and thatr animal is worthless and unsaleable. On top of everything else there are three agencies that can check them. BCMS, Trading standards and the Rural payments agency.

I worked for DEFRA during the foot and mouth outbreak, and one of my many jobs was to drive up to Workington to drop off the thousands and thousands of passports of destroyed cattle every day or two.

Re horse passports being proof of ownership, what would you do if the horse went out on loan? Passport has to go with horse, and there`s nothing to stop unscrupulous people changing the passport into their names and saying the horse is theirs.